472 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

And your point is?

Liao is now getting turret runs on worlds due to a current lack of Davion population.

[Faith McCarron]

Which doesn't really matter because in primetime, you will have 2-3 more 12-mans than us ready to ghost when it counts. Rinse and repeat.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Which doesn't really matter because in primetime, you will have 2-3 more 12-mans than us ready to ghost when it counts. Rinse and repeat.

That wasn't true the previous few weeks... Davion was lucky to present 4 full groups for CW during NA prime time, and the Liaos were having to endure turret runs.

The point is, Liao isn't the ONLY victim of turret runs. Never has been, never will be.

[Faith McCarron]

Proof is still in the pudding, on a regular basis, you guys are the ones that benefit from regularly having 1 or 2 MORE 12-mans in prime time and ghosting the planets to flip.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Proof is still in the pudding, on a regular basis, you guys are the ones that benefit from regularly having 1 or 2 MORE 12-mans in prime time and ghosting the planets to flip.

And I quote:

Faith McCarron said:

It's confirmation bias at work, obviously.

...

[Faith McCarron]

No, because when it comes to the queue numbers, we are all looking at the same thing. It's not a matter of my matches vs. your matches, the numbers are the numbers.

[MischiefSC]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Which doesn't really matter because in primetime, you will have 2-3 more 12-mans than us ready to ghost when it counts. Rinse and repeat.

Almost every single day I see Liao having 2 or 3 times the people in queue as Davion. That's alright; populations ebb and flow.

What is significant is that we've fought back and forth with Marik since the beginning. Marik I have a huge amount of respect for, they play hard every single match and win or lose take it in stride and adapt.

What I don't have is pages of Marik threads effectively saying that when they win it's because all Davion pilots are bad but when they lose it's because someone cheated or it's only turret drops.

Pugging I'm happy to win 50% of the time in CW. In a unit or synced with a unit I win ~80% of my matches against Liao in CW. Being in a large organized drop deeply skews the number of pugs you get and that dramatically impacts the odds of winning. That's the same in every faction and every front.

If you need to believe that the only reason you lose is some twist of the matchmaker or whatever, okay. That's your thing to deal with. Just understand that most other people recognize it as absurd. Sometimes we don't even have 36 total people in queue from Davion at crunch time. There are threads about it even. We are flipping planets, when it happens, by winning drops against Liao pilots. We certainly lose some too; everyone does. Win some, lose some. To believe that the majority of planet flips that happen on the Liao/Davion border happen because of turret drops is pretty silly and makes it hard to take other concerns that may come up difficult to take seriously. It's like the 'Elo hates me and only puts me on losing teams and I lose every single match while always being 100% the highest score on either team' sort of stuff. It's conflating the wild one-off situations with being every single time.

Whatever floats your boat though. You should send some anecdotal screenshots to PGI; all they have is the actual raw data with the real numbers which are clearly wrong. Clearly math is lying to them and they need to get some anecdotal evidence from that one time you were at band camp so they can better understand what's actually happening.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

No, because when it comes to the queue numbers, we are all looking at the same thing. It's not a matter of my matches vs. your matches, the numbers are the numbers.

Yet when I look at the border I see from Velhas to Teng lots of planets in Liao territory (~10 planets).

The only way that could have happened, according to your own statements is if Davion didn't have MORE numbers, and in fact we all know that during and after the Christmas/New Years break Davion population nose dived, and has only recently recovered, where at that time for whatever reason Liao was able to field a bare average 4 full groups of teams from 9:00am CST to 10:30pm CST, and Davion was LUCKY if they had that many at maximum.

As mentioned elsewhere, "ebb and flow"...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 January 2015 - 11:51 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

Be happy on your own island there, but it's plain for all to see. There are 12-24 more Davion players in the queue than Liao players, and the planets flip in Davion's favor. We are winning the matches, and yet when we come out, the scale has tipped further against us. You connect the dots.

There are times when we have units that go undefeated in prime time, yet the scale tips the other way. THAT is what's frustrating the hell out of players on this side.

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

As mentioned elsewhere, "ebb and flow"...

Ebb and flow? Have you looked at the map?

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

Be happy on your own island there, but it's plain for all to see. There are 12-24 more Davion players in the queue than Liao players, and the planets flip in Davion's favor. We are winning the matches, and yet when we come out, the scale has tipped further against us. You connect the dots.

There are times when we have units that go undefeated in prime time, yet the scale tips the other way. THAT is what's frustrating the hell out of players on this side.

Looking at it RIGHT NOW, I see a 0/12 on Teng, where you have a full Liao group apparently working on 'counter attack' to knock that planet below 20% (there was a period of time where Davions were on the planet at the same time Liao was, so the attacks must have been successful for the planet to STAY at 20%).

Also, RIGHT NOW, I see that Beid is at 16/14, and STILL at 0% (and it too has been active for most of the day), which must mean that the Davions are successfully defending it as Liao has no wins registering yet.

At this time it appears that Liao is able to field more units than Davion and at least at this point has been able to capitalize on the advantage...

EDIT: As I check again that lone Liao group on Teng must have got a turret run, the planet is now at 13%.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 January 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

Looking at it RIGHT NOW, I see a 0/12 on Teng, where you have a full Liao group apparently working on 'counter attack' to knock that planet below 20% (there was a period of time where Davions were on the planet at the same time Liao was, so the attacks must have been successful for the planet to STAY at 20%).

Also, RIGHT NOW, I see that Beid is at 16/14, and STILL at 0% (and it too has been active for most of the day), which must mean that the Davions are successfully defending it as Liao has no wins registering yet.

At this time it appears that Liao is able to field more units than Davion and at least at this point has been able to capitalize on the advantage...

EDIT: As I check again that lone Liao group on Teng must have got a turret run, the planet is now at 13%.

No kidding, captain obvious, it's 3 p.m. eastern.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Ebb and flow? Have you looked at the map?

Yes, which is how I am able to quote you the "at the moment" stats of the planets in play and count the number of planets Liao had recaptured and currently retains since the holiday breaks...

[Faith McCarron]

So since your numbers got drawn off to other places for like a week, the rest of the time doesn't count? Liao's push back was an anomaly, it didn't signal the end of the problem.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

No kidding, captain obvious, it's 3 p.m. eastern.

Right but if the Liao forces were as undefeatable as you want to imply, a planet starting at 0% or 100% (depending on if it's a world that requires attack/defense to capture/keep), if the forces you did have won EVERY match, Davion would be successful in capturing/holding any planets.

The way the drop queue is working, AT A MINIMUM it's a 10 minute wait to get a turret drop, however, we know that commonly it's close to double that. Where as if there is an opposing force available to fight you'll get a match MUCH more quickly. Yes, the match can take longer to fight, but if you're ALWAYS, or even MOSTLY winning them, you can slow planet attrition to a crawl, definitely over several hours (as I experienced when fighting with the Davion low numbers, which is why Liao, Marik, and Kurita captured as few as they did).

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

So since your numbers got drawn off to other places for like a week, the rest of the time doesn't count? Liao's push back was an anomaly, it didn't signal the end of the problem.

Liao feels a few drops of rain and runs around screaming, "The sky is falling!"

Yep, like your leader, you people are bat feces crazy...

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Right but if the Liao forces were as undefeatable as you want to imply, a planet starting at 0% or 100% (depending on if it's a world that requires attack/defense to capture/keep), if the forces you did have won EVERY match, Davion would be successful in capturing/holding any planets.

The way the drop queue is working, AT A MINIMUM it's a 10 minute wait to get a turret drop, however, we know that commonly it's close to double that. Where as if there is an opposing force available to fight you'll get a match MUCH more quickly. Yes, the match can take longer to fight, but if you're ALWAYS, or even MOSTLY winning them, you can slow planet attrition to a crawl, definitely over several hours (as I experienced when fighting with the Davion low numbers, which is why Liao, Marik, and Kurita captured as few as they did).

Liao feels a few drops of rain and runs around screaming, "The sky is falling!"

Yep, like your leader, you people are bat feces crazy...

You know that you're arguing with like a handful of people on the internet, not every single person that chose green as their house color, right? If everyone would stop generalizing entire factions to the point of using "Liaos" or "Davions" as a slur (not in the spirit of the game, but in discussions/arguments like this), maybe everyone's discussions would be a lot more productive - this goes for every side.


Can ghost drops happen? Sure. Has it benefited both sides at one point or another? Yep. Are Liao pilots and groups inherently worse/better than Davion? Probably not. Stop the idiotic banner waving and have a real discussion, or just stop bickering about tiny points.

Edited by MadWOPR, 14 January 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Faith McCarron]

Dimento Graven, on 14 January 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

Liao feels a few drops of rain and runs around screaming, "The sky is falling!"

Yep, like your leader, you people are bat feces crazy...

Nobody is running around screaming that the sky is falling. What we are pointing out is that the general trend has been that we steadily lose planets because we have lower numbers. This is exacerbated by the fact that we have fewer planets to start out with.

We are losing far more planets than we are winning, and I assure you, you guys are not so superior in skill as to explain that imbalance.

[Dimento Graven]

MadWOPR, on 14 January 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

You know that you're arguing with like a handful of people on the internet, not every single person that chose green as their house color, right? If everyone would stop generalizing entire factions to the point of using "Liaos" or "Davions" as a slur (not in the spirit of the game, but in discussions/arguments like this), maybe everyone's discussions would be a lot more productive - this goes for every side.

I thought it was my turn for derogatory generalizations...

Quote

Can ghost drops happen? Sure. Has it benefited both sides at one point or another? Yep. Are Liao pilots and groups inherently worse/better than Davion? Probably not. Stop the idiotic banner waving and have a real discussion, or just stop bickering about tiny points.

I was trying...

[Faith McCarron]

MadWOPR, on 14 January 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

Can ghost drops happen? Sure. Has it benefited both sides at one point or another? Yep. Are Liao pilots and groups inherently worse/better than Davion? Probably not. Stop the idiotic banner waving and have a real discussion, or just stop bickering about tiny points.

The point is that it GREATLY benefits Davion over the long run. That's where the issue is. This is a beta. There is a flaw. We are pointing it out. That's how it's supposed to work, brosauce.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Faith McCarron, on 14 January 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

The point is that it GREATLY benefits Davion over the long run. That's where the issue is. This is a beta. There is a flaw. We are pointing it out. That's how it's supposed to work, brosauce.

That's perfect, if people would stick to the actual facts of the matter, it would be awesome. So far, it reads that the faction that is dumping the most pilots in at any time are getting more ghost drops, which would tend to get them more planets in the long run. For a while, the Davions were the beneficiaries of this, and for a time, Liao was. Let's all hope that PGI is looking at this issue that a lot of people are complaining about, and provide us with a good solution. (Maybe the 3 period day will be great.)

[Dimento Graven]

As promised, that first alternate strategy attempt, where we won:


We tried doing this on Sulfer and ran out of time...