472 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

I don't feel bad about turret drops on either side- the mechanics negate actual skill in favor of numbers. To me, it's only a matter of "did I win my drops or did I lose my drops?", regardless of the final result- which is "who had more 12-man groups to toss at the planet?".

Anyone claiming skill otherwise is just being a drip, though. You could put the most skilled players in MWO in a 12-man and then proceed to ghost drop FTW even if the elites had a 100% win record at this point. That's the "skill" at this point in CW- getting enough people to drown out actual fighting in favor of unstoppable conquests.

[Dimento Graven]

One of the primary things that is broken for Liao in community warfare is the lack of attack options.

You have ONE Marik world and ONE Davion world as your attack options.

I'm not sure, not having seen all the other faction's Planet Finder pages, but, I pretty sure EVERY OTHER faction has at least 3, if not 4 or more to attack.

Sure "defending" is fun and what not, but it doesn't earn any Unit Tags on 'em, thus the motivation for Unit's to participate in CW becomes limited. Plus, only the LARGEST Liao units will have a chance to get their tag on a planet as they can bring the numbers the smaller units just can't match.

Yep... Liao needs another border or two to attack/defend, it might help draw in more CW players for them...

[Gorgo7]

Tallin 28/0, 80% Davion. All ghost drops all the time.
Beid 0/12 no attackers. Ghost dropping to ensure they keep the planet.
Alas, alak! Not enough Capellans to play a single CW drop.
Well, there is always Marik!

[Harathan]

Sigh. And no Liao units ever deliberately ghost drop, right?

Good grief.

Edited by Harathan, 15 January 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[MischiefSC]

What's irksome is Liao ghosts it up to 60%, then leaves and so we have nobody to play until about now, when we've got folks on and.... no Liao.

It would really suck to pug right now and see a bunch of Liao unit folks. Just sayin'. Happens with Davion sometimes; nobody on, we're getting hammered by Marik, you go pug because there's nowhere to drop and everyone is in pug queue.

[Alexander Steel]

From the Townhall meeting on 1/15/2015.

Q31 (CW planets being won on ghost drops? plans for fixing this?):

Simply put, they're NOT being won on ghost drops. Russ has the stats, and that's just not the case. He thinks this is just because people don't have enough info on queue state. Only 12% of matches in entire day are ghost drops, and almost all of those are outside that final 2 hour crunch period. Expects upcoming changes above to further reduce this.

http://www.reddit.co...n_hall_summary/

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Alexander Steel, on 16 January 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

From the Townhall meeting on 1/15/2015.

Q31 (CW planets being won on ghost drops? plans for fixing this?):

Simply put, they're NOT being won on ghost drops. Russ has the stats, and that's just not the case. He thinks this is just because people don't have enough info on queue state. Only 12% of matches in entire day are ghost drops, and almost all of those are outside that final 2 hour crunch period. Expects upcoming changes above to further reduce this.

http://www.reddit.co...n_hall_summary/

Wouldn't it kind of make sense that there may be a higher percentage of Ghost Drops on the Liao/Davion border than a global percentage might indicate? I would think with most factions having three attack lanes, or the larger amount of matches on the Clan/IS border, that that percentage might not be as applicable in a Davion/Liao argument, since the population fighting there is inherently playing less matches and is a much smaller fraction of the global battles. Not really trying to defend the Liao side here, just warning about the use of a global statistic for a subset that might look different.


That being said, I think the reason that Liao is still seen as bellyaching about this topic is that this dumb thread is like a scab that keeps getting picked. Had it died after the first couple days instead of a handful of people re-opening the wound over and over, we wouldn't look like a faction of babies.

Edited by MadWOPR, 16 January 2015 - 05:35 AM.

[Faith McCarron]

MadWOPR, on 16 January 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

That being said, I think the reason that Liao is still seen as bellyaching about this topic is that this dumb thread is like a scab that keeps getting picked. Had it died after the first couple days instead of a handful of people re-opening the wound over and over, we wouldn't look like a faction of babies.

Speak for yourself there, buddy. I don't consider it being a baby when I know I could trash 99.9% of those guys on the battlefield, yet still watch my borders crumble and having them claim they're winning all these matches.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Faith McCarron, on 16 January 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Speak for yourself there, buddy. I don't consider it being a baby when I know I could trash 99.9% of those guys on the battlefield, yet still watch my borders crumble and having them claim they're winning all these matches.

Since it's community warfare, even if you are the "Best Mech Pilot Ever", you can't be in every match across the entire front, which means that even if you never lost a match your borders could still crumble. All it would take is two Davion groups (which there are more of) beating Liao pugs to make whatever you're doing not matter, since it's "Community Warfare", not a leaderboard. It's completely possible that you're winning 101% of your matches, and these groups are winning the 75% they're claiming, and see Liao crumble due to CW mechanics.

That being said, and like everyone is pretty much saying, the mechanics of CW definitely need some work, and given that PGI mentioned that they are implementing stuff to eliminate Ghost Drops and such, hopefully it all works out.

Edited by MadWOPR, 16 January 2015 - 07:08 AM.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Alexander Steel, on 16 January 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

From the Townhall meeting on 1/15/2015.

Q31 (CW planets being won on ghost drops? plans for fixing this?):

Simply put, they're NOT being won on ghost drops. Russ has the stats, and that's just not the case. He thinks this is just because people don't have enough info on queue state. Only 12% of matches in entire day are ghost drops, and almost all of those are outside that final 2 hour crunch period. Expects upcoming changes above to further reduce this.

http://www.reddit.co...n_hall_summary/

We've asked for Davion/Liao specific numbers and we don't get them. I hate to say it, but Russ is wrong. Literally have spent several nights watching davs drop 48/0 and walk a planet from 0% to over 50%. Numbers don't lie, but neither does reality. It's likely that the number of fights elsewhere dwarf the total number of davion/liao fights and make that statistic possible.

[Dimento Graven]

Faith McCarron, on 16 January 2015 - 05:45 AM, said:

Speak for yourself there, buddy. I don't consider it being a baby when I know I could trash 99.9% of those guys on the battlefield, yet still watch my borders crumble and having them claim they're winning all these matches.

I feel the same way. At some point we need to square off against each other and have some fun!

[Faith McCarron]

Dimento Graven, on 16 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

I feel the same way. At some point we need to square off against each other and have some fun!

I'm in the active CW queues most mornings/early afternoon Eastern US time.

[Harathan]

Maxwell Albritten, on 16 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

I hate to say it, but Russ is wrong.

You're right! It must be a conspiracy against Liao!

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Harathan, on 16 January 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

You're right! It must be a conspiracy against Liao!

I wouldn't go out and say that Russ is wrong, but he's talking about a global statistic. It's entirely possible that on a small front like Liao/Davion the numbers are higher -many more matches are played on other borders than a mostly quiet and low pop one like we've got. It would really be nice to have the Liao/Davion stat, but probably not going to get it.

I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned a conspiracy against Liao, just a game mechanic that could use some work in this Beta game mode. As it stands, with more players, good groups, and coordination out of Davion than Liao, the current system makes a constant Liao loss more common than not. It is totally fair that this happens a lot of the time in the current state of the game, but you really do want people to play all the factions (otherwise who is going to be your evil space Commies to shoot?), so a system that makes smaller factions feel powerless isn't a great thing to have. I think some ability to back and forth makes for a more interesting long term CW game, so having some better incentives to play the more neglected factions would be nice. Those advocating a sliding CBill bonus for factions getting rolled have a good idea, IMO.

Edited by MadWOPR, 16 January 2015 - 10:39 AM.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Harathan, on 16 January 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

You're right! It must be a conspiracy against Liao!

I wouldn't expect a Davion to respond with anything but pointless drivel. Thanks for proving me right.

A lot of factions are complaining about ghost drops, not just Liao. All we're doing is pointing out that Liao, in return, isn't all factions. Again, it really amazes me how you davs get on and drop a planet from 0% to 100% with 48 against 0 and can at the same time pretend that ghost drops are not an issue here. It defies such simple logic that it's impossible to argue against.

Edited by Maxwell Albritten, 16 January 2015 - 11:58 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Maxwell Albritten, on 16 January 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

I wouldn't expect a Davion to respond with anything but pointless drivel. Thanks for proving me right.

A lot of factions are complaining about ghost drops, not just Liao. All we're doing is pointing out that Liao, in return, isn't all factions. Again, it really amazes me how you davs get on and drop a planet from 0% to 100% with 48 against 0 and can at the same time pretend that ghost drops are not an issue here. It defies such simple logic that it's impossible to argue against.

Well when I go to the Davion and Steiner forums, I don't find complaints about turret runs, I find posts along the lines of, "Where the hell is everybody..."

Be that as it may, as was discussed in PGI's latest Town Hall, or whatever you call it, they're shifting to a 3 attack phase/cease fire progression for the maps. More than probably because it was the easiest thing to implement and the easiest thing to track.

So probably come next week, we'll have a somewhat new dynamic.

[Maxwell Albritten]

Dimento Graven, on 16 January 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Well when I go to the Davion and Steiner forums, I don't find complaints about turret runs, I find posts along the lines of, "Where the hell is everybody..."

I imagine that more than a few of them stopped playing CW because they got tired of shooting turrets Though, just off topic, I find it funny when Steiners and Kruitas complain about "too many" people sitting on defense. Don't they realize that most of those people are probably not in their house and thus unable to attack? Also confuses me.


But yes, hopefully the 3 phase thing mixes it up a bit. The Davion dominance seems much more diminished in non-NA time zones.

Edited by Maxwell Albritten, 16 January 2015 - 12:29 PM.

[Harathan]

Maxwell Albritten, on 16 January 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

I wouldn't expect a Davion to respond with anything but pointless drivel. Thanks for proving me right.

I responded to pointless drivel with pointless drivel. I thought you'd approve. By the way, my opinion would be the same regardless of what Faction my merc company currently had a contract with, but good try with the ad hominem.

Maxwell Albritten, on 16 January 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

A lot of factions are complaining about ghost drops, not just Liao.

Nope, it really is just you guys.

Maxwell Albritten, on 16 January 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

A lot of factions are complaining about ghost drops, not just Liao. All we're doing is pointing out that Liao, in return, isn't all factions. Again, it really amazes me how you davs get on and drop a planet from 0% to 100% with 48 against 0 and can at the same time pretend that ghost drops are not an issue here. It defies such simple logic that it's impossible to argue against.

Fixed that for you.

Edited by John Wolf, 17 January 2015 - 02:42 PM.
Don't change quotes. /I/ fixed that for you.

[Harvey Batchall Kerensky at Law]

Harathan, on 16 January 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

I responded to pointless drivel with pointless drivel. I thought you'd approve. By the way, my opinion would be the same regardless of what Faction my merc company currently had a contract with, but good try with the ad hominem.



Nope, it really is just you guys.



Fixed that for you.

If everyone just stopped responding to the stuff they thought was drivel with more drivel, these threads would be about half as long and twice as good.

Edited by MadWOPR, 16 January 2015 - 01:03 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Maxwell Albritten, on 16 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

We've asked for Davion/Liao specific numbers and we don't get them. I hate to say it, but Russ is wrong. Literally have spent several nights watching davs drop 48/0 and walk a planet from 0% to over 50%. Numbers don't lie, but neither does reality. It's likely that the number of fights elsewhere dwarf the total number of davion/liao fights and make that statistic possible.

You mean 24/0. The only time we have had 48 people on in a single queue with Liao since Christmas was day before yesterday and it was about 40/40. I do watch Liao push worlds up to 60% via 24/0 in the middle of the day, I watch it happen to Steiner and FRR and Kurita worlds too (the ones we can drop defense on).

Thats 7 or 8 drops total in the day that does that. Then the remaining 120 or 150 total drops over the day happens.

What makes it difficult to have a productive discussion on the topic is that PGI comes out and says 'It's ~12% of drops and almost none of them are in primetime and flipping worlds' and your response is 'no, you're wrong, it's totally different for us than for everyone else'.

No it's not. Not at all, in any way. The Liao/Davion front is no different than the Marik/Davion front or the Kurita/Davion front or the FRR/Wolf front or the Steiner/Jade Falcon front or any other front. The mechanics work exactly the same. The MM isn't different. Since Christmas we've had populations ebb and flow both ways with times where Liao had more and times Davion had more and while we currently have more people we also have Marik filling ~100 people on our Marik border every day so that more than makes up for the 24 or 36 extra players we have than Liao at peak time. Every single other faction, every single other one, deals with population disparities with their enemies at different times of day.

The real huge difference is threads like this, 'my anecdotal experience proves that the actual telemetry of what is actually happening provided by the devs is wrong' and 'no no everything is totally different here because I think I should be winning more often' only exist here. Nobody else has it. I would fairly bet that Kurita and Clan Wolf lose more territory to ghost drops than Liao does on any given day but there are not threads like this there.

You're not a special snowflake. There is no magic on the Liao border that makes it different than every other border. All that's different is how people behave in the same environment. If PGI came out tomorrow and said 'there's ~300 drops on the Davion/Liao border every day total. Both factions make about 15 ghost drops every single day, only 1 or 2 of which are near primetime' this thread would not stop and there would be people saying 'it's a lie, PGI just likes Davion better' or something akin to that.

We're all playing the same game with the same stuff happening. There is no special Liao excuse, Davion generally has more active people but the huge numbers in Marik work us over every day drawing most of us away. Don't take this the wrong way but most of Marik is significantly better at MW:O than Liao. They have some brutally good units and folks there and they are incredibly well organized; you can run into what looks like 12 pugs and find out that they're all on voice coms and using a pre-established set of tactics and builds. They're also better sports, win or lose, on average, than any other faction. Hence our mutual respect in our respective forums.

Then there's theads like this here. On that note I've said all I really can here, if people need to still believe deep down that there's some conspiracy or special magical unique circumstances or whatever to justify why they lose sometimes other than 'sometimes we don't have enough people showing up' and 'sometimes we just don't get enough wins to take/hold worlds', well okay. We all have that happen. Everyone in every faction does but okay. Whatever floats your boat. We've already had the facts laid out by PGI, if that's not enough then nothing ever will be. Shine on you crazy diamond I guess?

This thread though doesn't represent Liao and I know that. There's some awesome people playing for Liao and a lot of awesome and funny stuff. Crazy Romanos House of Contracts was probably the best thing to come out of CW since it started. So, <o all the cool folks in Liao, please don't go away. We enjoy playing with you.