472 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

At this point? Nope. The last time I was fighting on Ares it was two Davion groups (one of which was viable to fight against with the Liao group cobbled together, the other one being an organized 12-man that was basically able to win at will).

The elite group was definitely grinding out the clock on purpose.

1) Light rush (destroys two generators and nearly third)
2) Mixed group of mostly Thunderbolts/a few random assaults that deliberately stalls at gate to farm kills, then suicide rushes any damaged 'Mechs left to reform for
3) Virtually identical group that easily plows through PUG for win once enough time elapses for other team to drop, which 2) would have but they wanted to run the clock down.

I won't complain, but they basically were hogging all the potential fights for themselves and leaving the other 12-man to drop unopposed. When we did get lucky enough to off-sync and fight the other group, we actually had a chance to win, and did.

[Harathan]

wanderer, on 22 January 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

1) Light rush (destroys two generators and nearly third)
2) Mixed group of mostly Thunderbolts/a few random assaults that deliberately stalls at gate to farm kills, then suicide rushes any damaged 'Mechs left to reform for
3) Virtually identical group that easily plows through PUG for win once enough time elapses for other team to drop, which 2) would have but they wanted to run the clock down.

I won't complain

Apparently you will complain, and that complaint seems to be that a Davion drop decided to earn some C-Bills with a few mech kills before going for the final generator push.

Please tell me in what way a Davion team could drop against a Liao team and not have them complain about it. Honest question. If we go for attrition, you complain and claim it's an attempt to run down the clock. If we go for the zerg, you complain that we're in it for fast wins so we can ghost drop more. If we ghost drop, you claim thats the only way we ever win.

I'd love to get a drop against Liao where it wasn't bitched about afterwards. Please tell me how.

[ShinVector]

Harathan, on 22 January 2015 - 04:39 PM, said:

Apparently you will complain, and that complaint seems to be that a Davion drop decided to earn some C-Bills with a few mech kills before going for the final generator push.

Please tell me in what way a Davion team could drop against a Liao team and not have them complain about it. Honest question. If we go for attrition, you complain and claim it's an attempt to run down the clock. If we go for the zerg, you complain that we're in it for fast wins so we can ghost drop more. If we ghost drop, you claim thats the only way we ever win.

I'd love to get a drop against Liao where it wasn't bitched about afterwards. Please tell me how.

Ohhh Geeee.... House Liao pilots are voicing their opinions in the wrong place...
Oh wait this is the House Liao section of the forum !!

See anyone out of place here Sunbro ?

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 22 January 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

At this point? Nope. The last time I was fighting on Ares it was two Davion groups (one of which was viable to fight against with the Liao group cobbled together, the other one being an organized 12-man that was basically able to win at will).

The elite group was definitely grinding out the clock on purpose.

1) Light rush (destroys two generators and nearly third)
2) Mixed group of mostly Thunderbolts/a few random assaults that deliberately stalls at gate to farm kills, then suicide rushes any damaged 'Mechs left to reform for
3) Virtually identical group that easily plows through PUG for win once enough time elapses for other team to drop, which 2) would have but they wanted to run the clock down.

I won't complain, but they basically were hogging all the potential fights for themselves and leaving the other 12-man to drop unopposed. When we did get lucky enough to off-sync and fight the other group, we actually had a chance to win, and did.

I struggle with finding a viable drop order. You can go zerg zerg heavy heavy and generally knock it out on wave 2 with a 12man against pugs but there's no pay and it sucks for the other team.

That is in fact why you see zerg heavy heavy zerg; you knock out ogens and some Omega damage, then you settle into heavy fighting so that both sides get some damage and kills, then you finish up the win.

The fact that it takes loner is ostensibly a good thing; win or lose the defenders get some fighting in for their waiting to drop, they get 24-40 kills to take to the bank and generate LP from. The point of that isn't 'dragging out the match', it's making the match worth everyones time.

Are you saying that you'd rather we just speed-run grind folks?

I get that the purpose of this thread is to badmouth Davion and say that all the telemetry, statistics and data on how matches play out is an evil plot to keep Liao down but this is a legit question. When I'm pugging I'm happy to be going 50/50 and I hate matches that are over in 2-5 minutes. Took longer to get into the drop than that. Even if I lose I want *paid*. Hence when I'm dropping with a unit my preference is to make sure both sides got a lot of combat in, got their kills and damage so that when we win (lets be honest; dropping with an 8-12 man is going to net you 80% wins or better) we at least had fun and so did the other team.

Is that what you want or not? Do you just want it to be a speed grind?

[Harathan]

ShinVector, on 22 January 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

See anyone out of place here Sunbro ?

No, given that the Moderators have already made it quite clear that anyone from any Faction is welcome to post in the sub-forum of any other Faction.


[redacted]
Yeah I'm not quite sure you've grasped the concept of what a troll is, even tho you're managing a stellar example.


I haven't insulted you, I asked you a straight up question. Mischief has come along and asked the same question. "Suck it" isn't really going to cut it as an answer.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 23 January 2015 - 05:10 PM.
Insult in quote

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

Is that what you want or not? Do you just want it to be a speed grind?

Yes. Actually, that's precisely what I want. Kill whatever you like in the way, but if you're better- make it quick. Do it right. Anything else spares the rod and spoils the child.

Clearly toying with an opponent is what was happening- it helps being not nose-deep in your opponents to observe that, and I had a great view of things while lobbing missiles around. It also means for the unobservant, they learn nothing and actually think they're Doing It Right.

The first time, they farmed us literally right on Omega to death before we were even landing from a respawn, just shooting down 'Mechs as they came in. The second and third time were as above- once it was obvious we weren't able to say otherwise, it was light rush, heavy stall, heavy rush autowin.

"Wow, we held off a heavy rush and just barely kept off the light rush! We're good!" - followed by the usual column of "choo-choo, Inevitable Thunderbolts" straight to Omega for the win is an awesome way to keep your opponent doing the same stupid, time and time again- because you give them hope where the reality is hope is utterly crushed. Because it worked for SOME of the time, eh?

An opponent you respect is an opponent you destroy as efficiently as possible. An "opponent" who isn't anything but target practice and a virtual autowin is one you farm instead. Clearly, the Liao force was not regarded as an opponent but rather target practice that could (and being that much inferior, was easily) defeated whenever the Davion force felt like it.

Like clockwork. Frankly, if they gave me a "retreat" option in cases like that- I'd take it. And encourage the rest of the PUG to join me. We were very, very, very much outmatched and I'll cheerfully admit it. Would rather have gotten back to fighting the other Davion group- where we took 2/3 before getting locked in the cycle of Robot Farmsville. I won't disconnect or suicide out of a match (it's disrespectful to the players I'm with and against the TOS), but it doesn't change that starting a game knowing you're fodder and can't leave till they say so because frankly, it's their prison and you're required to drop the soap on command is so not fun it goes past "boring" straight to "killing fun".

By comparison, I was in a match vs. Proton and company the other night. They obliterated us as they came and they won in excellent time. But they treated us like we were dangerous, rather than toy targets. You were in the way, you died and they proceeded to finish the game as quickly as they could cut through the defense. There was no deliberate gate-stalls or the like. That's a professional at work, and I like being beaten in a professional manner. It teaches you NOT to do things. It gives you, up close, a look at what makes a good player.

You know what my look at a "good player" was on Ares? People telling me to join a merc unit.

Oh, and that I'm a Goon spy, apparently since I -don't- have a unit tag.

[Harathan]

wanderer, on 22 January 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yes. Actually, that's precisely what I want. Kill whatever you like in the way, but if you're better- make it quick. Do it right. Anything else spares the rod and spoils the child.

Clearly toying with an opponent is what was happening- it helps being not nose-deep in your opponents to observe that, and I had a great view of things while lobbing missiles around. It also means for the unobservant, they learn nothing and actually think they're Doing It Right.

The first time, they farmed us literally right on Omega to death before we were even landing from a respawn, just shooting down 'Mechs as they came in. The second and third time were as above- once it was obvious we weren't able to say otherwise, it was light rush, heavy stall, heavy rush autowin.

"Wow, we held off a heavy rush and just barely kept off the light rush! We're good!" - followed by the usual column of "choo-choo, Inevitable Thunderbolts" straight to Omega for the win is an awesome way to keep your opponent doing the same stupid, time and time again- because you give them hope where the reality is hope is utterly crushed. Because it worked for SOME of the time, eh?

An opponent you respect is an opponent you destroy as efficiently as possible. An "opponent" who isn't anything but target practice and a virtual autowin is one you farm instead. Clearly, the Liao force was not regarded as an opponent but rather target practice that could (and being that much inferior, was easily) defeated whenever the Davion force felt like it.

Like clockwork. Frankly, if they gave me a "retreat" option in cases like that- I'd take it. And encourage the rest of the PUG to join me. We were very, very, very much outmatched and I'll cheerfully admit it. Would rather have gotten back to fighting the other Davion group- where we took 2/3 before getting locked in the cycle of Robot Farmsville. I won't disconnect or suicide out of a match (it's disrespectful to the players I'm with and against the TOS), but it doesn't change that starting a game knowing you're fodder and can't leave till they say so because frankly, it's their prison and you're required to drop the soap on command is so not fun it goes past "boring" straight to "killing fun".

By comparison, I was in a match vs. Proton and company the other night. They obliterated us as they came and they won in excellent time. But they treated us like we were dangerous, rather than toy targets. You were in the way, you died and they proceeded to finish the game as quickly as they could cut through the defense. There was no deliberate gate-stalls or the like. That's a professional at work, and I like being beaten in a professional manner. It teaches you NOT to do things. It gives you, up close, a look at what makes a good player.

You know what my look at a "good player" was on Ares? People telling me to join a merc unit.

Oh, and that I'm a Goon spy, apparently since I -don't- have a unit tag.

Thank you. Genuinely, thank you. As opinions go, I think you're nuts, but you at least bothered to bring something to the table other than "suck it".

I'm willing to concede that from your point of view, being in a drop like that feels like being farmed and I completely appreciate that would suck. But from the opposite viewpoint, and I'm genuinely trying to meet you in the middle here, will you concede that it's possible that what you saw as farming was actually a bunch of guys on the other team just trying to have a good game and not a deliberate attempt to troll Liao players? Speaking for myself, engaging in a game just to wind up the opposition requires more effort than I'm willing to invest.

Edited by Harathan, 22 January 2015 - 09:24 PM.

[wanderer]

Harathan, on 22 January 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Thank you. Genuinely, thank you. As opinions go, I think you're nuts, but you at least bothered to bring something to the table other than "suck it".

I'm willing to concede that from your point of view, being in a drop like that feels like being farmed and I completely appreciate that would suck. But from the opposite viewpoint, and I'm genuinely trying to meet you in the middle here, will you concede that it's possible that what you saw as farming was actually a bunch of guys on the other team just trying to have a good game and not a deliberate attempt to troll Liao players? Speaking for myself, engaging in a game just to wind up the opposition requires more effort than I'm willing to invest.

I don't think they were trying to troll us,

They were farming us. Trolling implies they were trying to get us mad.

It wasn't a matter of insults. It was literally an identical pattern, performed repeatedly with the utter confidence of getting the same result. Hit the ? block, get a coin, 100 coins for that 1-UP.

I kept hearing this.

[Harathan]

wanderer, on 22 January 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

I don't think they were trying to troll us,

They were farming us. Trolling implies they were trying to get us mad.

I apologise, I wasn't clear. My fault for choosing my worlds poorly. Rather than "troll", lets say "farm". Will you concede that it is possible that what you saw as deliberate farming may not have been a coordinated attempt to do so, but merely a side affect of teams generally running similar decks for every drop?

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 22 January 2015 - 09:13 PM, said:

Yes. Actually, that's precisely what I want. Kill whatever you like in the way, but if you're better- make it quick. Do it right. Anything else spares the rod and spoils the child.

Clearly toying with an opponent is what was happening- it helps being not nose-deep in your opponents to observe that, and I had a great view of things while lobbing missiles around. It also means for the unobservant, they learn nothing and actually think they're Doing It Right.

The first time, they farmed us literally right on Omega to death before we were even landing from a respawn, just shooting down 'Mechs as they came in. The second and third time were as above- once it was obvious we weren't able to say otherwise, it was light rush, heavy stall, heavy rush autowin.

"Wow, we held off a heavy rush and just barely kept off the light rush! We're good!" - followed by the usual column of "choo-choo, Inevitable Thunderbolts" straight to Omega for the win is an awesome way to keep your opponent doing the same stupid, time and time again- because you give them hope where the reality is hope is utterly crushed. Because it worked for SOME of the time, eh?

An opponent you respect is an opponent you destroy as efficiently as possible. An "opponent" who isn't anything but target practice and a virtual autowin is one you farm instead. Clearly, the Liao force was not regarded as an opponent but rather target practice that could (and being that much inferior, was easily) defeated whenever the Davion force felt like it.

Like clockwork. Frankly, if they gave me a "retreat" option in cases like that- I'd take it. And encourage the rest of the PUG to join me. We were very, very, very much outmatched and I'll cheerfully admit it. Would rather have gotten back to fighting the other Davion group- where we took 2/3 before getting locked in the cycle of Robot Farmsville. I won't disconnect or suicide out of a match (it's disrespectful to the players I'm with and against the TOS), but it doesn't change that starting a game knowing you're fodder and can't leave till they say so because frankly, it's their prison and you're required to drop the soap on command is so not fun it goes past "boring" straight to "killing fun".

By comparison, I was in a match vs. Proton and company the other night. They obliterated us as they came and they won in excellent time. But they treated us like we were dangerous, rather than toy targets. You were in the way, you died and they proceeded to finish the game as quickly as they could cut through the defense. There was no deliberate gate-stalls or the like. That's a professional at work, and I like being beaten in a professional manner. It teaches you NOT to do things. It gives you, up close, a look at what makes a good player.

You know what my look at a "good player" was on Ares? People telling me to join a merc unit.

Oh, and that I'm a Goon spy, apparently since I -don't- have a unit tag.

I miss the Goons. They added a lot of character here.

I just finished an amazing match against some mixed Liao troops; they went for attrition out of the gate. It ended 40/44, we were on defense and the time ran out.

If they'd zerged they may have won - however I don't think anyone on either side left that match with less than 400k. It was a great match, intense and fun to play. I wish they were all like that.

We won because we deployed some tactical counters to their approach (moving into more defensible positions, when damaged we kept eyes out for vulnerable targets we could get with a 'take you with me' rush, etc) but it was a near thing.

Don't take it as insulting. That's not it at all. Take it as a desire to really play with you. Any time a unit does NOT just zerg out a quick win they are taking a serious risk of losing. They do it for two reasons; one is it pays more, the other is, well, it's more fun for everyone generally.

You're on an island with that one wanderer. Zerging out matches is easy but feels cheap to do and feels cheap to lose to. Don't expect to play against me and get double/triple zerged out. Expect a lot of shooting Realize it's not contempt though but a desire to play a challenging game.

[wanderer]

Harathan, on 22 January 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

I apologise, I wasn't clear. My fault for choosing my worlds poorly. Rather than "troll", lets say "farm". Will you concede that it is possible that what you saw as deliberate farming may not have been a coordinated attempt to do so, but merely a side affect of teams generally running similar decks for every drop?

I'd doubt it a bit except that the tactics were precise and identical. They knew from the first run they could shove us all the way back to the defender spawns and kill every one of us if desired.

The second and third runs were identical in every way. Same team, same 'Mechs, same actions, and knowing the pilots and the 'Mechs they had, they had us massively outclassed and they knew it- considering they took two virtually identical waves for #2 and #3 each time and did the exact same thing, right down to the point they stopped to farm and the path to Omega.

If you'd recorded #2 and #3, it would be difficult to tell the difference between them. (I am not naming names because this could be seen as "name and shame".). I haven't seen two matches that identical in actions, positioning and results my entire time playing MWO since LRMgeddon and getting group drops on Caustic four times in a row.

They knew exactly what was in front of them, how little a threat it was, and we were most certainly farm fodder.

[wanderer]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

You're on an island with that one wanderer. Zerging out matches is easy but feels cheap to do and feels cheap to lose to. Don't expect to play against me and get double/triple zerged out. Expect a lot of shooting Realize it's not contempt though but a desire to play a challenging game.

The big difference is we're deliberately setting up to make light zergs impossible. We've basically said "We're going to win by blowing our way through opponents in a real fight".
Mind you, if the enemy force totally folded, we'd likely blow Omega and get it over with. Not like we don't blow up generators- we just don't zerg straight for them if there's people to shoot.

And some Davion forces have as well. The -other- Davion force on Ares was running mixed weights across every wave- the three fights we got in, they won one with a Yen-Lo-Wang sneaking in for the Omega kill, and the other two were honest 48 kills without spawncamping wins on our end.

Those are fun fights.

[MischiefSC]

wanderer, on 22 January 2015 - 10:09 PM, said:

The big difference is we're deliberately setting up to make light zergs impossible. We've basically said "We're going to win by blowing our way through opponents in a real fight".
Mind you, if the enemy force totally folded, we'd likely blow Omega and get it over with. Not like we don't blow up generators- we just don't zerg straight for them if there's people to shoot.

And some Davion forces have as well. The -other- Davion force on Ares was running mixed weights across every wave- the three fights we got in, they won one with a Yen-Lo-Wang sneaking in for the Omega kill, and the other two were honest 48 kills without spawncamping wins on our end.

Those are fun fights.

When we drop in a 12man we go attrition. Pugging... if I can't count on my unit to help drive the win via attrition we'll go with what we know is likely to win. It feels selfish to make decisions that benefit me over what benefits my faction.

Biggest proponent for changes to CW map to make the zerg non-viable though.