Hi all,
I'm not exactly a new player but I'm not really sure where to look to find this information so I thought I'd ask here.
Firstly, how do crits work? I always assumed that certain weapons had a higher chance to cause critical hits to open components and are thus termed 'crit seekers' e.g. machine guns & LBX ACs, but I've seen a few people talking about how crits are generally misunderstood whenever the topic of autocannons come up, so could someone please clarify exactly how they work?
Secondly, Clan ACs. So you have regular clan ACs which fire a stream of shells, LB ACs which are like shotguns and Ultras which you can double tap.
1. Do Ultras do half their damage with each tap? For example to get 20 damage from an Ultra AC 20 you would need to shoot it twice, or does it do 20 with each tap for a total of 40 when double tapped?
2. If it does do full damage with every tap, is there ever any reason to take regular CACs over Ultra CACs?
3. are LBX's actually any good?
2
4 replies to this topic
#2
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- The Ankle Biter
- 1,512 posts
Member
Posted 02 January 2015 - 05:36 AM
Ultras do full damage per tap. The double tap runs the risk of jamming, in exchange for firing twice.
At this point, there's no real reason to take a normal Clan AC.
You'll have to define "any good". An LBX-2 DWF has horrendous amounts of dakka that, while not minmaxed, is devastating to watch.
At this point, there's no real reason to take a normal Clan AC.
You'll have to define "any good". An LBX-2 DWF has horrendous amounts of dakka that, while not minmaxed, is devastating to watch.
#3
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- The 1 Percent
- 9,682 posts
Member
- LocationCalifornia
Posted 02 January 2015 - 05:41 AM
let's get the easy ones out
1- No, they do full damage. In fact, if you double tap, you deal double damage, that comes at the price of the possibility of jamming. (so a UAC 20, deals 40 damage if you double tap it, but it can jam on bullet one, and you spend the next 5-6 secnods without a UAC 20)
2- No chance of jamming, it gives you consistent damage output, and I believe they cost a slot less for clans (For IS a UAC 5 costs 1 more slot and ton than an AC 5)
3- Yes, unlike clan ACs they deal front loaded damage, and you can slap quite a few of them on there. Also, with their grouping, you tend to hit the part you want easily. Not to mention they are the best ballistic against lights if you don't have sniper aim.
Now on to crits:
A critical hit is scored when a section is damaged after the armor is stripped, and there's a chance for the shot to crit once twice or thrice. The crit seeker weapons tend to do little damage per shot but have a higher crit chance. Hilariously this causes the misunderstanding of thinking of them as the best crit weapons in the game.
True, if you want crit hits you take them. Yet they fall short to a regular AC getting a crit. Allow me to illustrate:
An LBX 10 fires off ten pellets. Let's say three of them hit the same exposed section, and all three crit for double damage, that's 6 damage done to the internal components.
ONE IS AC 10 shot deals 10 damage, if it crits for double damage, that's 20 damage, enough to kill almost any single component we have.
Crit seekers are good at dealing a lot of damage to internal organs, but honestly, they are inferior in killing power to regular ACs, or PPCs.
MGs are great for trying to cripple an opponent fast, you won't kill the exposed section quickly, but what's inside it will die fast. While a regular AC will usually have to kill the whole section, sometimes without scoring a single crit. However, the AC will probably kill the section faster.
Anyone out there that might have more accurate information, or caught a mistake, feel free to correct me.
1- No, they do full damage. In fact, if you double tap, you deal double damage, that comes at the price of the possibility of jamming. (so a UAC 20, deals 40 damage if you double tap it, but it can jam on bullet one, and you spend the next 5-6 secnods without a UAC 20)
2- No chance of jamming, it gives you consistent damage output, and I believe they cost a slot less for clans (For IS a UAC 5 costs 1 more slot and ton than an AC 5)
3- Yes, unlike clan ACs they deal front loaded damage, and you can slap quite a few of them on there. Also, with their grouping, you tend to hit the part you want easily. Not to mention they are the best ballistic against lights if you don't have sniper aim.
Now on to crits:
A critical hit is scored when a section is damaged after the armor is stripped, and there's a chance for the shot to crit once twice or thrice. The crit seeker weapons tend to do little damage per shot but have a higher crit chance. Hilariously this causes the misunderstanding of thinking of them as the best crit weapons in the game.
True, if you want crit hits you take them. Yet they fall short to a regular AC getting a crit. Allow me to illustrate:
An LBX 10 fires off ten pellets. Let's say three of them hit the same exposed section, and all three crit for double damage, that's 6 damage done to the internal components.
ONE IS AC 10 shot deals 10 damage, if it crits for double damage, that's 20 damage, enough to kill almost any single component we have.
Crit seekers are good at dealing a lot of damage to internal organs, but honestly, they are inferior in killing power to regular ACs, or PPCs.
MGs are great for trying to cripple an opponent fast, you won't kill the exposed section quickly, but what's inside it will die fast. While a regular AC will usually have to kill the whole section, sometimes without scoring a single crit. However, the AC will probably kill the section faster.
Anyone out there that might have more accurate information, or caught a mistake, feel free to correct me.
Edited by IraqiWalker, 02 January 2015 - 05:42 AM.
#4
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- The Guide
- 23,384 posts
Welcoming Committee
Posted 02 January 2015 - 05:51 AM
First:
Long story... click here.
Short story, look at this dev-delivered image on the subject
Accompanied by this brief transcript.
That's an example. However that would be how everything except how the demonstrated lasers would work.
Laser crits are simply explained as per tick (which is why their crit destruction are awful in MWO, as say a medium laser does between 0.5 to 1 damage per tick depending on the number of ticks, which 1 crit does the tick's damage to a crit, 3 crits does 3 times the tick's damage. Most items have 10 health, so you can see why they aren't worth much in MWO for crits).
This example uses an MWO-style custom-made ER PPC in Megamek/tabletop/Battletech.
This case would be 100% true in MWO, as an MG has 10 health, and the Clan ER PPC deals 10 damage on site (with 2.5 to 5 spread), so it'd do this on a single crit. It could even attack and destroy up to 3 crits... but the chances of that are in the single digit percentage.
Most weapons follow this pattern. For ACs it'd be damage dealt = crit damage if crit succeeds. (i.e. Clan AC/20 would deal its 4 damage to crit for the bullet that crits, though all 5 could in theory crit, giving 5 separate 4 damage crits, while IS AC/20 would deal 20 damage to exactly one crit item).
15% of total crit damage dealt goes into extra structure damage. So your weapons can do more damage against structure than armor. This is where MGs and LBXs can get really overpowered since they have incredibly high crit chances.
-------------
Secondly...
1. Ultras don't double tap for clans. The first pull does the full number of shots. Each tap after will get 1 to 2 shells of your proposed total allowed, meaning you have to keep tapping. Pull! First volley goes. Now Tap-tap-tap-tap-tap for Ultra 20, for example. Sometimes only 3 taps, sometimes only 4. It can jam at any time during your taps too. So you might get 20 + 4 + JAM for example.
An ultra/5 written out..
Each bullet delivers a portion of the damage, but the first trigger pull will fire the bullets required to do its stated damage.
A Clan UAC/2 for example:
Pull trigger. 2 bullets fire. Each bullet does 1 damage. Total: 2 damage.
Tap trigger after. 1 or 2 bullets fire on your tap and each bullet has its own risk of jamming.
Sometimes you have to tap only once or sometimes twice.
A Clan UAC/20 for example:
Pull trigger. 5 bullets fire. Each bullet does 4 damage. Total: 20 damage.
Tap trigger. 1, 2, or sometimes 3 bullets fire. (You can count them yourself). During this, it'll hiccup, requiring another tap to continue until you get 5 bullets. Most people are spamming the mouse and so some won't even notice this (but since I have to put my videos together, I'm fully aware of it since I can hear my own clicks most times).
Each bullet up until the cooldown time is completed for the main burst, has a chance of causing a jam.
Note: If you hold the mouse button, it will only do main bursts for full damage and will not draw from the secondary feeding chamber, preventing any instances of jamming. (thus no reason to use a Clan AC).
(An IS UAC/5, on the other hand, has the chance on every primary and secondary shot so long as you are tapping rather than holding).
Example video.
Starts mostly with single pulls and expands later on at 2:40-ish.
2. In tabletop, jams were permanent. Sadly PGI didn't try this. Another thing is that Clan autocannons (aka LBX alt-fire not yet enabled in MWO) is that they are in some cases slightly heavier with a larger crit size... but would be colder than the really hot ultras (example: Clan UAC is supposed to be 7 heat, Clan LBX [AC] is supposed to be 6 heat). But PGI missed another opportunity and made them both 6 heat. To make up for this, they made them the same tonnage too (due to complaints after their oversight).
So what reason do you have? Eventually an alt fire to switch between AC burst and LBX shotty. For now? No jam reliable fire is the only reason to go Clan AC. It's even more expensive (a canon value from BT, since Clan LBX with its AC round switch-ability was FAR more valuable in a long fight).
3. You tell me. Clan UAC/20 + Clan LBX 20 on a Hellbringer against a Hellbringer.
Left side is the LBX-20. Right side is the UAC/20, though I don't double burst it. I only have 1 ton of ammo each.
Found another example. Actual gameplay.
Skip to 2:50 seconds in to see the first kill.
Skip to 4:26 for the moments leading up to the next 3 kills. (No, the stalker I first engage is not one of them, but the Timber Wolf, Kintaro and Stalker are.)
Long story... click here.
Short story, look at this dev-delivered image on the subject
Accompanied by this brief transcript.
Spoiler
That's an example. However that would be how everything except how the demonstrated lasers would work.
Laser crits are simply explained as per tick (which is why their crit destruction are awful in MWO, as say a medium laser does between 0.5 to 1 damage per tick depending on the number of ticks, which 1 crit does the tick's damage to a crit, 3 crits does 3 times the tick's damage. Most items have 10 health, so you can see why they aren't worth much in MWO for crits).
This example uses an MWO-style custom-made ER PPC in Megamek/tabletop/Battletech.
Spoiler
This case would be 100% true in MWO, as an MG has 10 health, and the Clan ER PPC deals 10 damage on site (with 2.5 to 5 spread), so it'd do this on a single crit. It could even attack and destroy up to 3 crits... but the chances of that are in the single digit percentage.
Most weapons follow this pattern. For ACs it'd be damage dealt = crit damage if crit succeeds. (i.e. Clan AC/20 would deal its 4 damage to crit for the bullet that crits, though all 5 could in theory crit, giving 5 separate 4 damage crits, while IS AC/20 would deal 20 damage to exactly one crit item).
15% of total crit damage dealt goes into extra structure damage. So your weapons can do more damage against structure than armor. This is where MGs and LBXs can get really overpowered since they have incredibly high crit chances.
-------------
Secondly...
1. Ultras don't double tap for clans. The first pull does the full number of shots. Each tap after will get 1 to 2 shells of your proposed total allowed, meaning you have to keep tapping. Pull! First volley goes. Now Tap-tap-tap-tap-tap for Ultra 20, for example. Sometimes only 3 taps, sometimes only 4. It can jam at any time during your taps too. So you might get 20 + 4 + JAM for example.
An ultra/5 written out..
Spoiler
Each bullet delivers a portion of the damage, but the first trigger pull will fire the bullets required to do its stated damage.
A Clan UAC/2 for example:
Pull trigger. 2 bullets fire. Each bullet does 1 damage. Total: 2 damage.
Tap trigger after. 1 or 2 bullets fire on your tap and each bullet has its own risk of jamming.
Sometimes you have to tap only once or sometimes twice.
A Clan UAC/20 for example:
Pull trigger. 5 bullets fire. Each bullet does 4 damage. Total: 20 damage.
Tap trigger. 1, 2, or sometimes 3 bullets fire. (You can count them yourself). During this, it'll hiccup, requiring another tap to continue until you get 5 bullets. Most people are spamming the mouse and so some won't even notice this (but since I have to put my videos together, I'm fully aware of it since I can hear my own clicks most times).
Each bullet up until the cooldown time is completed for the main burst, has a chance of causing a jam.
Note: If you hold the mouse button, it will only do main bursts for full damage and will not draw from the secondary feeding chamber, preventing any instances of jamming. (thus no reason to use a Clan AC).
(An IS UAC/5, on the other hand, has the chance on every primary and secondary shot so long as you are tapping rather than holding).
Example video.
Starts mostly with single pulls and expands later on at 2:40-ish.
2. In tabletop, jams were permanent. Sadly PGI didn't try this. Another thing is that Clan autocannons (aka LBX alt-fire not yet enabled in MWO) is that they are in some cases slightly heavier with a larger crit size... but would be colder than the really hot ultras (example: Clan UAC is supposed to be 7 heat, Clan LBX [AC] is supposed to be 6 heat). But PGI missed another opportunity and made them both 6 heat. To make up for this, they made them the same tonnage too (due to complaints after their oversight).
So what reason do you have? Eventually an alt fire to switch between AC burst and LBX shotty. For now? No jam reliable fire is the only reason to go Clan AC. It's even more expensive (a canon value from BT, since Clan LBX with its AC round switch-ability was FAR more valuable in a long fight).
3. You tell me. Clan UAC/20 + Clan LBX 20 on a Hellbringer against a Hellbringer.
Left side is the LBX-20. Right side is the UAC/20, though I don't double burst it. I only have 1 ton of ammo each.
Found another example. Actual gameplay.
Skip to 2:50 seconds in to see the first kill.
Skip to 4:26 for the moments leading up to the next 3 kills. (No, the stalker I first engage is not one of them, but the Timber Wolf, Kintaro and Stalker are.)
Edited by Koniving, 02 January 2015 - 06:34 AM.
#5
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- Overlord
- 4,908 posts
Member
- LocationSuffolk, England
Posted 02 January 2015 - 09:50 AM
as for question 2, further elaboration on the regular Clan Autocannons.
they were put in as a temporary workaround to select fire LBX autocannons, so are identical in price, weight and slots to the LBX ACs, and therefore more expensive and use more slots than UACs,if PGI ever implement the select fire Clan LBX the Clan Autocannons will magically change to LBX ACs.
also if you just hold down fire Clan UACs will not automatically fire the second shot, so I cannot see any reason to use Clan ACs over UACs or LBX ACs.
they were put in as a temporary workaround to select fire LBX autocannons, so are identical in price, weight and slots to the LBX ACs, and therefore more expensive and use more slots than UACs,if PGI ever implement the select fire Clan LBX the Clan Autocannons will magically change to LBX ACs.
also if you just hold down fire Clan UACs will not automatically fire the second shot, so I cannot see any reason to use Clan ACs over UACs or LBX ACs.
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