38 replies to this topic

[Beo Vulf]

As a founder I have played the IS mechs for a long time. I have never understood the QQ'ing about clan mechs being OP since I can regularly beat a Dire Wolf 1 on 1 with my Atlas D. IS has 33 different mech tonnage classes to pick from (in 5 ton increments from 25 to 100) so we out number the clans in Mechs that we can chose. The current quirks have essentially broken the game balance. now with the quirks when I can take an Atlas and go 2 on 1 with a couple of Dire Wolves and they hardly touch my Atlas before I kill them there is no balance. When a Thunderbolt can spam 3 erPPC's with out having to worry about over heating there is no balance. When a Hunchback can take on and kill a Timberwolf, and a Stormcrow with LRM's at 200 meters without dieing there is no balance. There are to many examples of an IS mech being able to take on 2 clan mechs and beating them for any one to say that the clan mechs are OP, or that the game as it currently stands is balanced. So Russ if you were implementing the quirks to balance the game I believe you went way to far.

[Darian DelFord]

Beo Vulf, on 03 January 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

As a founder I have played the IS mechs for a long time. I have never understood the QQ'ing about clan mechs being OP since I can regularly beat a Dire Wolf 1 on 1 with my Atlas D. IS has 33 different mech tonnage classes to pick from (in 5 ton increments from 25 to 100) so we out number the clans in Mechs that we can chose. The current quirks have essentially broken the game balance. now with the quirks when I can take an Atlas and go 2 on 1 with a couple of Dire Wolves and they hardly touch my Atlas before I kill them there is no balance. When a Thunderbolt can spam 3 erPPC's with out having to worry about over heating there is no balance. When a Hunchback can take on and kill a Timberwolf, and a Stormcrow with LRM's at 200 meters without dieing there is no balance. There are to many examples of an IS mech being able to take on 2 clan mechs and beating them for any one to say that the clan mechs are OP, or that the game as it currently stands is balanced. So Russ if you were implementing the quirks to balance the game I believe you went way to far.

Then you face really sucky Direwolf pilots.


::::EDIT::::


HEY Another Floridian and not that far from me :>

From St Augustine here :>


Back to battle :>

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 January 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Claims of beating X Clan chassis with X IS Chassis. A claim of a Hunchback beating a Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

That's not really indicative of anything. That's not proof of why the quirks are bad. That's proof of having a bad game. Or running into bad players. If a Hunchback downs a Timberwolf, chances are it was already damaged, or the pilot didn't twist away from damage and ate every shot.

Meanwhile both the Timberwolf and Stormcrow punch well above their weight class. But if anyone says anything. We're just stupid, Clans are fine, the Timberwolf is supposed to be that strong because lore. The quirks were made specifically to bring mechs in line with those tier 1 mechs

Edited by MechaBattler, 03 January 2015 - 08:53 AM.

[vettie]

Darian DelFord, on 03 January 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

From St Augustine here :>

Back to battle :>

I LOVE St Augustine. Beautiful Place.
sorry off topic

Carry on

[Wintersdark]

MechaBattler, on 03 January 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Claims of beating X Clan chassis with X IS Chassis. A claim of a Hunchback beating a Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

While the overall balance discussion is very complicated, this is a good point.

If you're beating Direwolf pilots with an AS7-D, it's because those Direwolf pilots are bad. The Direwolf isn't an OP mech by any means - it's slow speed and whale-like maneuverability are critical disadvantages, but they don't really matter in a DWF vs. AS7 duel. An DWF can push 100+ point alphas, most of which is pinpoint. The AS7 simply lacks the firepower to compete with that.

Overall balance, though, is not simple.

A TDR-9S with 3 ERPPC's, firing them at 7.5 heat, using 65 tons of drop deck space, with no minimum range issues or well any real disadvantage, decent hit boxes and a standard engine pretty much destroys Clan mechs with laughable ease.

The Timberwolf (basically Tier 0) and Stormcrow (comfortably tier 1) are excellent, the Hellbringer is decent and tier 2 thanks to ECM; though ignoring ECM it's fairly lackluster. Otherwise, though, the Clan mechs range for outright terrible to just meh.

So, if you're talking "Clans" as Timberwolves, Stormcrows, with a couple Hellbringers and Direwolves(situationally), against basically random IS mechs then yeah, Clans are superior. However, take that same clan force against optimized and heavily quirked IS mechs, and you have a totally different resut. Take those optimized and quirked IS mechs against random clan mechs and IS dominates.

[Fate 6]

I can regularly beat clans in my IS mechs, but I can also regularly beat IS in several of my clan mechs.

I will agree, though, that overall I feel IS is stronger because the quirks are so strong. The only Clan mechs that stand up to IS mechs are the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Dire Wolf and Hellbringer.

However, a large part of why other clan mechs are weak is because of locked-in equipment (Warhawk/Mist Lynx for example) and physical mech shape (Gargoyle/Nova arms oh god why). Clans have so few high mounted hardpoints, and the few that I mentioned were good happen to have the highest mounted hardpoints among the clan mechs. Changing IS quirks will never help the weaker clan mechs in Clan vs Clan comparisons.

[MechaBattler]

Wintersdark, on 03 January 2015 - 08:59 AM, said:

While the overall balance discussion is very complicated, this is a good point.

If you're beating Direwolf pilots with an AS7-D, it's because those Direwolf pilots are bad. The Direwolf isn't an OP mech by any means - it's slow speed and whale-like maneuverability are critical disadvantages, but they don't really matter in a DWF vs. AS7 duel. An DWF can push 100+ point alphas, most of which is pinpoint. The AS7 simply lacks the firepower to compete with that.

Overall balance, though, is not simple.

A TDR-9S with 3 ERPPC's, firing them at 7.5 heat, using 65 tons of drop deck space, with no minimum range issues or well any real disadvantage, decent hit boxes and a standard engine pretty much destroys Clan mechs with laughable ease.

The Timberwolf (basically Tier 0) and Stormcrow (comfortably tier 1) are excellent, the Hellbringer is decent and tier 2 thanks to ECM; though ignoring ECM it's fairly lackluster. Otherwise, though, the Clan mechs range for outright terrible to just meh.

So, if you're talking "Clans" as Timberwolves, Stormcrows, with a couple Hellbringers and Direwolves(situationally), against basically random IS mechs then yeah, Clans are superior. However, take that same clan force against optimized and heavily quirked IS mechs, and you have a totally different resut. Take those optimized and quirked IS mechs against random clan mechs and IS dominates.

That's fine. We should balance Clans and IS both against each other and amongst themselves. But anytime we try to say that maybe the Stormcrow and Timberwolf are too strong. We got all these posts about how they're fine and we should L2P. I'm only doing what everyone else has done to protect their strongest mechs.

I personally think they should reduce the heat reduction by 10% and cooldown reduction by 10%. Take that 20 and give it to ballistics or missiles or split it.

[Water Bear]

Beo Vulf, on 03 January 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

I can regularly beat a Dire Wolf 1 on 1 with my Atlas D.

I don't believe this. Dire Wolf heat-adjusted DPS is just higher.

I'm almost sure no one else believes this, either.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Water Bear, on 03 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

I don't believe this. Dire Wolf heat-adjusted DPS is just higher.

I'm almost sure no one else believes this, either.

Actually I believe him. I also have no trouble in a brawl against Dire Wolves in my Atlases. Keyword is brawl though, if its not close range, obviously the Dire Wolf would win.

[Wintersdark]

Alwrath, on 03 January 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Actually I believe him. I also have no trouble in a brawl against Dire Wolves in my Atlases. Keyword is brawl though, if its not close range, obviously the Dire Wolf would win.[/size]

Still not seeing it. Gotta be a terrible DWF build and a really poor DWF pilot.

Even if an AS7 pilot was better than me, and there are several, he's not going to win a brawl against me in a Direwolf. Just not going to happen. As long as both pilots aren't bad, the DWF has the same armor, vastly higher DPS in any reasonable (or even kind of poor, like DakkaWhale) configuration. Not just higher DPS, but higher alpha too. The DWF can simply rip through the AS7 in no time at all.

Poor Atlases haven't been anywhere near the top of the IS Assault chain since... well, the Stalker.

[LordBraxton]

OP claiming it's easy mode to fight 2 dire wolves with his atlas

You are either full of sh*t

Or at the very bottom of the elo ladder... like below the bottom...

Atlas got ****** quirks anyway

Your clan tag gives you away.

stop whining because the IS have a chance to kill your expensive gold mechs

[Beo Vulf]

MechaBattler, on 03 January 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Claims of beating X Clan chassis with X IS Chassis. A claim of a Hunchback beating a Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

That's not really indicative of anything. That's not proof of why the quirks are bad. That's proof of having a bad game. Or running into bad players. If a Hunchback downs a Timberwolf, chances are it was already damaged, or the pilot didn't twist away from damage and ate every shot.

Meanwhile both the Timberwolf and Stormcrow punch well above their weight class. But if anyone says anything. We're just stupid, Clans are fine, the Timberwolf is supposed to be that strong because lore. The quirks were made specifically to bring mechs in line with those tier 1 mechs

I know both the pilots that battled the Hunchback and they are not bad pilots. The quirks simply make the IS mechs OP when the mechs are built to the quirks. Neither of the clan mechs had any damage at the start of the fight. I seem to recall a lot of inner sphere pilots complaining about the same thing to the point that there was nothing but QQing about how OP clan mechs were when they were released. Now that the shoe is on the other foot you say there is no proof that the quirks are bad---funny.

Edited by Beo Vulf, 03 January 2015 - 06:32 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

MechaBattler, on 03 January 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Claims of beating X Clan chassis with X IS Chassis. A claim of a Hunchback beating a Timberwolf and Stormcrow.
That's not really indicative of anything. That's not proof of why the quirks are bad. That's proof of having a bad game. Or running into bad players. If a Hunchback downs a Timberwolf, chances are it was already damaged, or the pilot didn't twist away from damage and ate every shot.

So... you're saying personal anecdotes and rationalisation aren't as significant as gathering information systematically through direct observation using statistics and other methods that are potentially less vulnerable to personal biases? Huge if true. Let's make this our new philosophy for settling these kind of questions. We should call our new philosophy 'empiricism', based on the greek word for 'experiment' or 'experience'.

EDIT: Never mind. I googled it, and it turns out that a bunch of guys like John Locke and David Hume already figured this out three hundred years ago. Oh well.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 03 January 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

You heard it folks - straight from the OP:

The Hunchback-4J can take on a Timberwolf and a Stormcrow 1v2 and kill them both.

That's how serious this thread is.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 January 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Prosperity Park, on 03 January 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

You heard it folks - straight from the OP:
The Hunchback-4J can take on a Timberwolf and a Stormcrow 1v2 and kill them both.
That's how serious this thread is.

Yep. With LRMs too.

He's also taking out Dire Wolves in his Atlas, basically without being touched. I'm assuming his opponents have flawless aim, but the OP is just torso twisting like Agent Smith in the Matrix.

[Beo Vulf]

Water Bear, on 03 January 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

I don't believe this. Dire Wolf heat-adjusted DPS is just higher.

I'm almost sure no one else believes this, either.

First they nerfed the clan weapons. Second they added the quirks to the IS mechs. Third with the heat adjustments that the quirks give IS mechs they can sustain a rate of fire that the clan mechs can not even approach.

[Wintersdark]

Beo Vulf, on 03 January 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

First they nerfed the clan weapons. Second they added the quirks to the IS mechs. Third with the heat adjustments that the quirks give IS mechs they can sustain a rate of fire that the clan mechs can not even approach.

While I'd be on board with a lot of arguments this way involving specific quirked mechs and specific clan mechs, the Atlas under no circumstances comes anywhere close to matching the damage output of a well built Direwolf, under any range band. It just can't happen.

Edited by Wintersdark, 03 January 2015 - 07:58 PM.

[Star Wolves Admin Account]

Wintersdark, on 03 January 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

While I'd be on board with a lot of arguments this way involving specific quirked mechs and specific clan mechs, the Atlas under no circumstances comes anywhere close to matching the damage output of a well built Direwolf, under any range band. It just can't happen.

Agreed, the real advantage to the atlas is you can give him endosteel and a faster engine. He doesn't come anywhere near in terms of firepower.

[Wintersdark]

Blueduck, on 03 January 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

Agreed, the real advantage to the atlas is you can give him endosteel and a faster engine. He doesn't come anywhere near in terms of firepower.

And endosteel is generally speaking not even desirable on a DWF. Whether it is on the AS7 or not depends.

The larger engine is a huge advantage though, and ensures the AS7 has a good role in CW as opposed to the DWF which is pretty much a liability in most cases. It just doesn't help the AS7 at all in an AS7 vs. DWF duel, in which the AS7 gets... well. It's not pretty.

[MechaBattler]

Beo Vulf, on 03 January 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

I know both the pilots that battled the Hunchback and they are not bad pilots. The quirks simply make the IS mechs OP when the mechs are built to the quirks. Neither of the clan mechs had any damage at the start of the fight. I seem to recall a lot of inner sphere pilots complaining about the same thing to the point that there was nothing but QQing about how OP clan mechs were when they were released. Now that the shoe is on the other foot you say there is no proof that the quirks are bad---funny.

That's still just a claim by you. You're not actually providing any proof. Even if you bring those people to say that it happened. It's still just claims. : /