22 replies to this topic

[Zerstorer Stallin]

I was a founder. I don't say this to tell you I'm better than anyone one but just to point out I've been here a bit. I've seen the Splat cat, the double ac monster, the small laser hunchback, and the dual GaussCat. I raged when we didn't get CW on time, and was frustrated when I learned money spent by founders went to other games instead of MWO. I'm a die hard mechwarrior fan and have been for a few decades. Things have improved since the recent split and I'm alot more hopeful than I have been in the past that MWO will final pull its head from its unholy orifice and began to be a good game.

MWO has problems, not a shock to anyone who plays I'm sure. IMO the problems are the same problems that most mechwarrior games have faced. Namely pinpoint damage and customization.

We never should have gotten a fully customization mechlab. The clan roll out pretty much showed that yes people will play even with out that ability, so don't be the kid who howls that they wouldn't be here if it wasn't. For god sake peolpe spent 500 dollars on a single mech! We wouldn't need ghost heat and the other crazy crap we have if it wasn't a min max fest, pretty much like every mechwarrior game becomes. I had hope back when they revealed the laser mechanics only to have that dashed with ppc, and ac weapons. PPC should be a beam, and ac weapons should be like the clan ac weapons. Again look at how the clans play and I have a hard time saying its not a better mechanic. Why ever take FF armor? Why ever use single HS? Why ever use anything that doesn't do pinpont 10, 20, 25, 30, 40 or 50 damage?

Pinpoint accuracy is a bad idea. At best arm weapons should be accurate with torso weapons being cone. This would make the game feel more like mechwarrior and less like COD. At least make PPC a beam and adjust IS AC weapons to a stream like the clans.

As to IS vs CLAN, I get the limitations of 12 vs 12 and that there can't be a 10 vs 12 mechanic. So why not do a bit of the CW in all games? WEIGHT LIMITS FOR A TEAM! Yes 240 vs 220 would be about right and stop the mix and match IS and Clan games.

Lastly I'd ask to slow everything down a bit. Torso twisting needs a nerf all around. Lights should stay about the same with a slight adjust to med, then more to heavy and assualts need to be cut by atleast 20%. Do the same for speed while you are at it. This is MWO not COD.Thanks for listening to an old timer gripe... its what we do best anyway.

[Burktross]

See, you say we wouldn't be here without that customization aspect.
But I'm not exactly playing clans, now am I?

Never the less, pretty sure TT had even more lax customization rules (no hardpoints, cough), albeit with time restraints.
I think its a nice trade.

[Zerstorer Stallin]

Burktross, on 04 January 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

See, you say we wouldn't be here without that customization aspect.
But I'm not exactly playing clans, now am I?

Never the less, pretty sure TT had even more lax customization rules (no hardpoints, cough), albeit with time restraints.
I think its a nice trade.

TT did have an option for more customization. No one would use all the options because it was to much. Any real TT games had real hard limits on mechs, otherwise it was 7/11/7 jumping mechs with pulse lasers everywhere! Clans seem more popular than IS right now and they have more restrictions and speak directly to my issues. Yet people paid ALOT of money to play them.

[Max Liao]

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We never should have gotten a fully customization mechlab.

This.

Plus the game should have started in the 3025 era, balance the basics before advancing the timeline and adding in the upgraded tech.

However, it is what it is and here we are. They aren't going to start from scratch, so we're stuck with what we've got.

[Hell in a Helmet]

Wait...what about this thing where my money was spent somewhere else? I don't post in the forums often so the first I hear of it. If true, they will never see another dime.

[Threat Doc]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 04 January 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

I was a founder. I don't say this to tell you I'm better than anyone one but just to point out I've been here a bit.

I picked up my first box set in November 1984, began playing in early '97, and started my own unit in late '97, because no one else would do what I knew I could do. The very hour PGI announced MWO, I signed on, here (user number 363), and had begun my Facebook page for my mercenary unit. I've been around a while, as well.

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I raged when we didn't get CW on time, and was frustrated when I learned money spent by founders went to other games instead of MWO.

I rage, now, because CW needs LOTS of work. I go back to play it every so often, only to continue to be heavily disappointed and, if things continue to go the way PGI has recently expressed, that disappointment is bound to continue. I've put three times the amount of money into this game that I would pay for any cover, or the cost of the cover and roughly eight months of nominal MMORPG subscription costs, as well, but I feel like it's gone where it was needed to be.

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Things have improved since the recent split and I'm alot more hopeful than I have been in the past that MWO will final pull its head from its unholy orifice and began to be a good game.

Here's to hoping.

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Namely pinpoint damage and customization.

We never should have gotten a fully customization mechlab.

Man, I could not agree more.

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PPC should be a beam, and ac weapons should be like the clan ac weapons.

Ehhhh... I don't think I can agree with this, but more later.

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Pinpoint accuracy is a bad idea. At best arm weapons should be accurate with torso weapons being cone.

I agree that pinpoint accuracy is a bane of most folks existence. As for arm-mounted weapons being more accurate, no, the opposite. Your arm weapons are out hanging on their own, bouncing all over the place, enough to affect accuracy, while torso weapons should be a lot more stable.

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This would make the game feel more like mechwarrior and less like COD. At least make PPC a beam and adjust IS AC weapons to a stream like the clans.

Why not have both? Allow the MechWarrior to choose. You say it should be a beam, a lot of folks say it should be a ball, as in MechWarrior II, and I say it should be a lightning bolt, like in MechWarrior IV. I hate MW4, but I like what they did with PPCs.

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Lastly I'd ask to slow everything down a bit. Torso twisting needs a nerf all around. Lights should stay about the same with a slight adjust to med, then more to heavy and assualts need to be cut by atleast 20%. Do the same for speed while you are at it.

Oh my God, are you freakin' kiddin' me? Let's give Light 'Mechs even MORE of an advantage over the King of the Battlefield, shall we? No, if a 'Mech is traveling at 150 kph and goes to make a turn, either the 'Mech needs to be slowed down dramatically, or the two-thirds of its tonnage that is above the hip actuators needs to make it tumble over on its back side, for pete's sake. Also, why in the hell would you slow down a torso twist on an Assault 'Mech, when it's the most stable platform for allowing a torso to twist. If anything, any Light 'Mech that has a fast torso twist, right now, needs to have that bad boy nerf'd!!! Make Light 'Mech pilots learn how to drive their 'Mechs the way Light 'Mechs should be driven, not like main battle tanks, for heaven's sake. Light 'Mechs are not supposed to go into fights with anything other than Lights, and certainly not against anything heavier than a moderate Medium 'Mech. Everything's backwards, here, and it needs to be rectified; Light 'Mechs have a place and a role on the battlefield, but it is NOT taking out Assault 'Mechs single-handedly.

Burktross, on 04 January 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

Never the less, pretty sure TT had even more lax customization rules (no hardpoints, cough), albeit with time restraints.

For tabletop, it was never a matter of lax rules, it was a matter that there were few, if any, munchkins. Mass and critical slot limitations used to take care of everything PGI has inappropriately limited in this game. The things that have limits on them should not, and the things that don't have limits on them, should; it's all backwards.

[Alistair Winter]

For this game to be interesting without full customization, they would have to pretty much start from scratch. Removing pinpoint accuracy would be great, but it would also change the game completely. And even then, I'm not sure PGI have the right people to make this a thinking man's shooter. It's simple and fun action with beautiful mechs, but I doubt it will ever be anything more than Quake Arena: Gundam edition.

I personally would have loved stock mechs and role warfare and hardcore mode and repair & rearm, but PGI wants this to be a team brawling simulator with people smashing their fists at the keyboard until they explode and respawn, and it's not going to change.

As much as I agree with the OP, this thread should have been called "MWO improvements for 2012".

[Coolant]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 04 January 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

We never should have gotten a fully customization mechlab.

bah...it's what makes Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior and not a Shooter, the customizations...

[Threat Doc]

Alistair Winter, on 04 January 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

For this game to be interesting without full customization, they would have to pretty much start from scratch.

I don't think so, and I've been thinking on this for a while. Do you remember when NBT built a Hardcore game mode, where the rules of the board game had replaced those in MW4? I think something similar could be done in MWO; simply put, Russ has been talking about having a desire to have a 3025 mode in the game. Well, great, do that, but make it so each person has a single stock 'Mech of their choosing. Have various 'Mech masteries and improvements, some of which could be paid for in real-world cash, of course, and perhaps have THAT one be a subscription model -I'd pay $15/month for it, for certain-, where there is NO customization except what is done from part and salvage stockpiles.

So, say a Catapult loses an LRM-15... if there's an LRM-15 in stock, or from 'Mech salvage, it goes on the Catapult. However, if there is no LRM-15, have a pair of SRM-6s put on there, with re-tooling for ammo reloads, etc. If a player is willing to have the bay in which the old weapon or equipment was converted into something different, or more, say changing the infrastructure for a missile pod to that of a laser or ballistic mount, paying the price and waiting a certain amount of time, that would be cool in my book. Alternately, a bay could be rebuilt and expanded to include both or all three. What I would also recommend is having the MechLab available, but only in a Smurfy's-like capacity, where a player can design the 'Mech they want to have, but it's going to take time to get replacement parts, and they have to pay for each part they want. What doesn't make sense to me is the weapon hardpoints... there are enough critical slots and tonnage to limit all of that, and people would be required to learn how to design the entire 'Mech, as it was in the box set rule book.

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Removing pinpoint accuracy would be great, but it would also change the game completely. And even then, I'm not sure PGI have the right people to make this a thinking man's shooter. It's simple and fun action with beautiful mechs, but I doubt it will ever be anything more than Quake Arena: Gundam edition.

More than likely not -THAT IS A CHALLENGE, PGI-, but I would like to see more than pinpoint hits.

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I personally would have loved stock mechs and role warfare and hardcore mode and repair & rearm, but PGI wants this to be a team brawling simulator with people smashing their fists at the keyboard until they explode and respawn, and it's not going to change.

As much as I agree with the OP, this thread should have been called "MWO improvements for 2012".

Ouch. Unfortunately, I believe you are absolutely correct in this vein, though I would definitely love for PGI to prove us wrong.

[Raggedyman]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 04 January 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

We never should have gotten a fully customization mechlab.

Full customization of your mech is the core component of the MechWarrior game series, and to a great degree of the original Battletech game. Hell, in the original you could just make your own mech from scratch as they had everything explained on how to do it. You can't just ditch the customisation, it's like having lemonade without any citrus flavour or a musical without any music. It just doesn't work. It's our Barbie collection! It's the reason we're here (beyond laser death and Hunchbacks).

If there is a balancing problem that means there is a problem with the balancing, not with the customization, so maybe ask for alterations on that rather than on the basic building blocks. We currently use tonnage, which is phenomenally blunt, is maybe ask for something like CBills or Elo to be the key marker.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Max Liao, on 04 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

This.

Plus the game should have started in the 3025 era, balance the basics before advancing the timeline and adding in the upgraded tech.

However, it is what it is and here we are. They aren't going to start from scratch, so we're stuck with what we've got.

Are you me? because seriously, I've been saying this since Closed Beta.

[Max Liao]

Flash Frame, on 04 January 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Are you me? because seriously, I've been saying this since Closed Beta.

I hope not, because if so I am a very confused person right now. Multiple universes and such are just too ... confusing.

I don't have time to blast so many of the arguments above, as it was this talk that caused me to quit playing MWO (and quit this community) for nearly a year. I have resigned myself to the fact that this game is not MechWarrior Online, it's Giant Stompy Robots Online. As a robot shooter it's okay and getting better. I accept that. As for Battletech, well, this game BINO. Battletech in name only.

[Brody319]

The only thing this game needs is Hats!

[zagibu]

LCPL 4, on 04 January 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Wait...what about this thing where my money was spent somewhere else? I don't post in the forums often so the first I hear of it. If true, they will never see another dime.

Are you kidding? They are a company. What they do with the money you give them is none of your business. You are not an investor or something.

[verybad]

Coolant, on 04 January 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

bah...it's what makes Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior and not a Shooter, the customizations...

What do you mean not a shooter? It's a shooter either way, always has been in all mechwarrior versions.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Kay Wolf, on 04 January 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Oh my God, are you freakin' kiddin' me? Let's give Light 'Mechs even MORE of an advantage over the King of the Battlefield, shall we? No, if a 'Mech is traveling at 150 kph and goes to make a turn, either the 'Mech needs to be slowed down dramatically, or the two-thirds of its tonnage that is above the hip actuators needs to make it tumble over on its back side, for pete's sake. Also, why in the hell would you slow down a torso twist on an Assault 'Mech, when it's the most stable platform for allowing a torso to twist. If anything, any Light 'Mech that has a fast torso twist, right now, needs to have that bad boy nerf'd!!! Make Light 'Mech pilots learn how to drive their 'Mechs the way Light 'Mechs should be driven, not like main battle tanks, for heaven's sake. Light 'Mechs are not supposed to go into fights with anything other than Lights, and certainly not against anything heavier than a moderate Medium 'Mech. Everything's backwards, here, and it needs to be rectified; Light 'Mechs have a place and a role on the battlefield, but it is NOT taking out Assault 'Mechs single-handedly.

The Space Pope is quite confused by posts like this.

When is it advisable for a light mech pilot to operate like a "main battle tank" at the moment? The Space Pope has certainly seen a resurgence of hit and run tactics as well as focus fire for a group of light mechs but he has not seen light mechs brawling and tanking damage with fresh assault mechs, at least not in a successful matter with any frequency (this assumes of course that the heavier mech pilots can aim and have enough experience not to panic).

Similarly, if lights were made useless as fighting mechs, which they would be if suddenly lights couldn't fight anything heavier than a medium, then there would be no reason to use them anymore at all. It would then instead be advisable to use fast mediums or heavies as they could do everything these neutered light mechs could in the game and still tangle with the big boys.

Edited by Merlevade, 04 January 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Zerstorer Stallin, on 04 January 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

We never should have gotten a fully customization mechlab.

Maybe, I'd like to see more depth from the Mechlab. Such as having a dynamic weight for Gyros, where you need a bigger one when sticking in a bigger engine or it weighs less with a smaller one for example.

For example, taking a Jenner with its stock STD 245 its Gyro is supposed to weigh 2.45 (so maybe rounded to 2.5), swap that out for an XL 300 and the Gyro's weight needs to be 3 tons.

Little details like that would be nice.

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Pinpoint accuracy is a bad idea. At best arm weapons should be accurate with torso weapons being cone. This would make the game feel more like mechwarrior and less like COD. At least make PPC a beam and adjust IS AC weapons to a stream like the clans.

The main thing is how much potential damage our weapons can do compared to their original values. Autocannons for example can deal a whole lot more damage than the originals due to their damage and rate of fire.

And 2x Armor was a bandaid answer that then made balancing more complicated since another root problem was the implementation of the Heat system allowing us to Alpha everything with little risk compared to the original.

For example the AC/5 can deal a potential 30 damage in 10 seconds without modifiers compared to its original 5 in 10 seconds.

IS PPCs / ERPPCs are also able to a lot with their current cooldown, ~25 damage in 10 seconds to 10 damage in 10 seconds.

So tweaking weapons would be nice, I'd love to have some rapid fire dakka for the IS, but we also need to adjust the heat system.

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As to IS vs CLAN, I get the limitations of 12 vs 12 and that there can't be a 10 vs 12 mechanic. So why not do a bit of the CW in all games? WEIGHT LIMITS FOR A TEAM! Yes 240 vs 220 would be about right and stop the mix and match IS and Clan games.

We might be fine with improving weapons and the heat system, but going to say 230 max for both sides is something I'd consider.

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Lastly I'd ask to slow everything down a bit. Torso twisting needs a nerf all around. Lights should stay about the same with a slight adjust to med, then more to heavy and assualts need to be cut by atleast 20%. Do the same for speed while you are at it. This is MWO not COD.Thanks for listening to an old timer gripe... its what we do best anyway.

I'd love to see out Mech Tree Efficiencies updated. Once those are doubled with an Mech taken to Elite it makes many mechs highly responsive and over-engined lights hyper-responsive.

I also would like to reduce the impact Engine Rating has on agility, where each Mech Chassis has it's own static agility profile and engine rating would only adjust straight line speed.

That way we could then have unique Mech Tree options where we could customize certain specific aspects of our mechs and not simply have different aspects all get big boosts as we currently do.

[MechaBattler]

Pinpoint accuracy is the only thing I think I might agree with. But if I recall correctly they tried to add a convergence system and it caused a lot of lag. And people don't want a bloom effect because they don't want RNG.

Most of what you're suggesting. Requires removing aspects of the game that they built from the ground up to specifically be in the game. And they're not very keen on destroying content they created. They won't even shorten down mediums that are as tall as Assaults.

The only real problem is pin point accuracy.

Edited by MechaBattler, 04 January 2015 - 04:29 PM.

[Steel Claws]

Pin point damage is more myth than reality. About the only people who complain about it are people who like driving large slow mechs.

About the only weapons that it can apply to are large IS ACs (read 10s and 20s) and gauss rifles. Unless your target is standing still or coming straight at you, you are not going to put two rounds in the same place on most mechs at any decent range because of the need to lead the target. Once your reticle leaves the mech your aiming at to lead it, the shots will go straight and not converge because they have no longer have a reference point. Far too many times I have seen shots that should have hit sail by my target on either side so I know this is true. ACs and gauss SHOULD do damage to the component they strike as the round impacts on one location - not many.

Many complain about PPCs but they have long travel times and actually spread damage on a hit with part of the damage going to adjacent components. Anyone standing still long enough to get hit by dual or treble PPCs deserves to be shot an killed. There's also still some hit reg issues with PPCs, this added to the high heat make them a lesser than ideal weapon choice.

Lasers have burn durations but are probably still the best weapon options. Again if you allow someone to keep their lasers in one place on your mech, you deserve to die.

All other weapons are already a cone or require multiple hits to do any serious damage because that is how that weapon should behave (i.e. missiles and smaller ACs). The reason for inaccuracy in the board game is simply because it is a board game and needed this factor added. It is not needed or wanted here. We already have enough problems getting hits to register thank you.

About the only thing I might want to see is that the more commonly boated weapons should have an increase in the number of slots the take up. LRM 15 and 20 should take a slot or two more as should AC/UC 5s and 2s. This will effect how many can be loaded an available space for ammo. This would reduce boating effectiveness without destroying the weapons functionality.

Edited by Steel Claws, 04 January 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[General Taskeen]

Raggedyman, on 04 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Full customization of your mech is the core component of the MechWarrior game series, and to a great degree of the original Battletech game.

While this is true to a degree and people were all "customize this yo" in past MW games, MW games were about options, just like BT is about options. And by that, I mean rules each side agrees to adhere to. And single player portions that allowed you to play exactly how you wanted to. Also there was a MW game called Multiplayer BattleTech 3025, which was just stock Mechs only, which considered one of the lost "greats" of gaming in 2001 by those that played it. Most people don't even remember that the last game, MW4, that people played for nearly 10 years, had a plethora of server host options for setting up game rules/game types including no customization at all, limited/restricted customization, pure tech/mix tech customization, or just pure 'anything goes.'