74 replies to this topic

[BellatorMonk]

I gave the OP a "like" simply for the first paragraph. Well played sir..well played.

[Gyrok]

Aidan, on 07 January 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

I have been asked politely by Rebel Roshak to take my grievances to the MWO forums instead of Twitter. [Redacted]

So let us start the discussion with a specific comparison of Clan weaponry and IS weapons.

For example, Clan ER-PPC vs IS ER-PPC. Below is a screen from the Smurfy website which I believe is accurate as of the current MWO patch. Cast your view to the two tabular entries for the Clan ER-PPC and the IS ER-PPC. Can someone please tell me how these 2 weapon systems differ?

Well lets see:

1. Clan does more damage - Check
2. Clan also does splash damage, does the IS weapon?
3. Clan has the same cooldown rate as the IS weapon. Why is this so?
4. Clan ER-PPC generates the same HEAT!!! How can this advanced technology NOT generate more heat?
5. Clan ER-PPC costs the same, in C-bills, as the IS weapon? Geee I guess advanced weaponry doesn't cost as much as we thought.

Because the parameters of heat generation and weaponry cool down is the same as Inner Sphere BUT the damage is more, this results in a damage per second per ton or DPS/T of 0.63. This is almost twice the 0.36 DPS/T for an IS ER-PPC. Oh and BTW the Clan weapon is 1 Ton lighter!! It really is quite amazing how brilliant those Clan scientists are!!! *Read with MUCH sarcasm*

Fellow MWO pilots I have said in the past and I reiterate here again, the Free to Play business model PGI has adopted will cause distortions in this game for the purpose of selling game items to perpetuate the PGI revenue stream. When these distortions become so grievous they dramatically effect game play, then these issues must be presented to the MWO gaming community at large.

[Redacted]

You can have splash damage when we get 7.5 heat ERPPCs on a mech of ours with hardpoints capable of mounting ERPPCs over the cockpit of the mech with a standard engine, and velocity buffs, as well as range buffs and recharge buffs.

Edited by John Wolf, 07 January 2015 - 06:58 PM.
Moderated Quote

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 07 January 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Let's make the IS ERPPC do splash damage!

Hurray!

4 pinpoint and 6 splash sounds fair to me.

[Alaskan Nobody]

FupDup, on 07 January 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

It might have something to do with cute and furry animals, methinks.

Yes, but you say that about almost every thread!

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 07 January 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

It's no different than kicking someone out of your house for insulting you.

In other words - he can say whatever he wants

Does not mean anyone has to listen.

[Wintersdark]

Shar Wolf, on 07 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

In other words - he can say whatever he wants

Does not mean anyone has to listen.

Well, no. "Free speech" doesn't mean you can day whatever you want where ever you want, it just means the government can't get involved in it. In a private place (such as this, private meaning privately owned) you're under the rules of the owner/host. As such, he can say what he's allowed to say, or he can leave. (Hence moderation, bans,etc)

[Alaskan Nobody]

Wintersdark, on 07 January 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Well, no. "Free speech" doesn't mean you can day whatever you want where ever you want, it just means the government can't get involved in it. In a private place (such as this, private meaning privately owned) you're under the rules of the owner/host. As such, he can say what he's allowed to say, or he can leave. (Hence moderation, bans,etc)

Been talking to a lot of people lately that find the full explanation to complex to properly understand.

They usually get the shortened version of my previous post though.
(IE: yes they are allowed to say it - but the other people are allowed to kick them out for it as well)

[Kain Demos]

Ultimatum X, on 07 January 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

BINGO.


If you want to analyze something you need to look at all of the points, not just the points you want to see.


The IS also has access to a lower heat variant, there is no option like this for clan mechs. (and also they have more pinpoint ballistic options to synergize with, reducing overall heat load on the build)



The CERPPC has more damage, but it is splash damage. You make "splash" sound like a benefit, it is not a benefit.


10 damage + 2.5 & 2.5 damage for 15 heat on a 6 ton weapon that has a higher aiming requirement than hitscan lasers is still not a very efficient weapon.


That being said, I'd like for them to go back and reduce IS ER PPCs down to 12 heat (and maybe 9 for standard PPC), and adjust all ER PPC quirks to counter balance the change.

Then the CERPPC could be 15 heat for 15 pinpoint.

Wow, I've made this exact same suggestion and am surprised to see a guy sporting Davion tags doing the same.

Cycle times in this game are a bit out of hand as well--there isn't much of a difference from the smallest weapons to the largest. A complete overhaul isn't likely so some small tweaks would be welcome too if it got some of the velocity back for PPCs.

PPC--10 heat, 10 damage, 4 second cycle time and 1250 m/s (has a minimum range)
ERPPC--12 heat, 10 damage, 4.5 second cycle time and 1500 m/s (no minimum range)
C-ERPPC--15 heat, 15 damage, 5 second cycle time and 1500 m/s (no minimum range)

Edited by Kain Thul, 07 January 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[Brody319]

You have the right to free speech, but I have the right to tell you why your opinions are dumb.

[Joe Mallad]

Aidan, on 07 January 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

I have been asked politely by Rebel Roshak to take my grievances to the MWO forums instead of Twitter. [Redacted]

So let us start the discussion with a specific comparison of Clan weaponry and IS weapons.

For example, Clan ER-PPC vs IS ER-PPC. Below is a screen from the Smurfy website which I believe is accurate as of the current MWO patch. Cast your view to the two tabular entries for the Clan ER-PPC and the IS ER-PPC. Can someone please tell me how these 2 weapon systems differ?

Well lets see:

1. Clan does more damage - Check
2. Clan also does splash damage, does the IS weapon?
3. Clan has the same cooldown rate as the IS weapon. Why is this so?
4. Clan ER-PPC generates the same HEAT!!! How can this advanced technology NOT generate more heat?
5. Clan ER-PPC costs the same, in C-bills, as the IS weapon? Geee I guess advanced weaponry doesn't cost as much as we thought.

Because the parameters of heat generation and weaponry cool down is the same as Inner Sphere BUT the damage is more, this results in a damage per second per ton or DPS/T of 0.63. This is almost twice the 0.36 DPS/T for an IS ER-PPC. Oh and BTW the Clan weapon is 1 Ton lighter!! It really is quite amazing how brilliant those Clan scientists are!!! *Read with MUCH sarcasm*

Fellow MWO pilots I have said in the past and I reiterate here again, the Free to Play business model PGI has adopted will cause distortions in this game for the purpose of selling game items to perpetuate the PGI revenue stream. When these distortions become so grievous they dramatically effect game play, then these issues must be presented to the MWO gaming community at large.

[Redacted]

do some research bud

http://www.sarna.net...rojector_Cannon

The Clan ERPPC is a direct advancement in damage, crit space and tonnage. The only thing PGI changed on the in game CERPPC is that instead of 15 pin point damage and to make it different from the pin point 15 damage of Gauss, the CERPPC does 10 pin point damage and the splash damage is devided between the remaining 5 damage. I don't see nor have any issue with this.
Otherwise, PGI has kept the CERPPC very close to its canon marterial.

Edited by John Wolf, 07 January 2015 - 06:59 PM.
Moderated Quote

[Mawai]

I am a bit confused. What is the point that the OP is trying to make since I am missing it?

I believe that the damage values, heat and tonnage (also possibly the pricing) for both the clan and IS ERPPC come from table top. We can argue all day about whether that makes sense or not but at least we can understand where the numbers come from.

The only changes made by PGI so far as I know are that the clan ERPPC applies 10 damage directly and 5 as splash to two adjacent components and ghost heat is applied when firing more than 2 at once.

Is the OP complaining that PGI is using TT values and that these are not appropriate?

On the other hand, the refire rate is another quantity that PGI created and perhaps that is the issue though from his original post the weapons appear to have the same firing rate (which would also correspond to TT).

So ... what exactly is wrong? It seems to me that the Clan ERPPC and IS ERPPC are one of the cases which are actually better balanced than most of the clan vs IS weapons.

[Yokaiko]

Mawai, on 07 January 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I am a bit confused. What is the point that the OP is trying to make since I am missing it?

I believe that the damage values, heat and tonnage (also possibly the pricing) for both the clan and IS ERPPC come from table top. We can argue all day about whether that makes sense or not but at least we can understand where the numbers come from.

The only changes made by PGI so far as I know are that the clan ERPPC applies 10 damage directly and 5 as splash to two adjacent components and ghost heat is applied when firing more than 2 at once.

Is the OP complaining that PGI is using TT values and that these are not appropriate?

On the other hand, the refire rate is another quantity that PGI created and perhaps that is the issue though from his original post the weapons appear to have the same firing rate (which would also correspond to TT).

So ... what exactly is wrong? It seems to me that the Clan ERPPC and IS ERPPC are one of the cases which are actually better balanced than most of the clan vs IS weapons.

The damage yes, lets just ignore that they fire a HELL of a lot faster, into twice as much armor.

[Joe Mallad]

Yokaiko, on 07 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

The damage yes, lets just ignore that they fire a HELL of a lot faster, into twice as much armor.

i don't get what you mean by "into twice as much armor"? As for them firing a lot faster, what's the issue? All this means is that if you are a pilot that doesnt have good weapon management skills and cant control the urge to fire fire fire just because your weapons fire faster... You build more heat and shut down and put yourself in a situation to die.

This is one things I love about this game. Just because a mech can boat this or that or fire this that and that at a faster rate than some other mechs, doesn't mean it should always be so. PGI has uped the heat system and fire rates (including) cool down (rate of fire models) to give people the sense of "I can do more damage faster". But ITS A TRAP! It's a system that (in the end) is there to catch you up and "in most cases" bring you down because of our own desires to be selfish and want to do MORE damage as fast as we can.
Don't get me wrong, I do see many great pilots that can manage the system just fine, but most can't. When they are pressed and have the enemy within ther comfort zone, they lose their cool and fire fire fire haphazardly and end up being the ones that die because of shutdown or exploding their own mechs from to much heat.

Again... I don't see the issue lol

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 07 January 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Yoseful Mallad, on 07 January 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

i don't get what you mean by "into twice as much armor"? As for them firing a lot faster, what's the issue? All this means is that if you are a pilot that doesnt have good weapon management skills and cant control the urge to fire fire fire just because your weapons fire faster... You build more heat and shut down and put yourself in a situation to die.

Check the armor.structure values in this game, they are double table top. That would be into double armor, now consider that everything fires even faster than double, 240% on average. With pinpoint accuracy, and full damage....something that TT never had.

I've always detested the heat scale in this game, remember before DHS when you would get trolled for running a PPC or Large Laser?

yeah.

[Ultimax]

Kain Thul, on 07 January 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

Wow, I've made this exact same suggestion and am surprised to see a guy sporting Davion tags doing the same.

I own 80+ mechs, and about half of them are Clan mechs.

I want my Clan mechs to have nice toys too.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 January 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[Joe Mallad]

Yokaiko, on 07 January 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

Check the armor.structure values in this game, they are double table top. That would be into double armor, now consider that everything fires even faster than double, 240% on average. With pinpoint accuracy, and full damage....something that TT never had.

I've always detested the heat scale in this game, remember before DHS when you would get trolled for running a PPC or Large Laser?

yeah.

ok yeah i see what you mean about double armor now. Yeh I too didn't like the double armor change and thought they should have left it to canon values as well as the weapon damage. so yeah I agree with you there.

[Yokaiko]

Yoseful Mallad, on 07 January 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

ok yeah i see what you mean about double armor now. Yeh I too didn't like the double armor change and thought they should have left it to canon values as well as the weapon damage. so yeah I agree with you there.

I don't even have an issue with the re-fire rates, I though that the damage values and heat should have been prorated to reflect the faster firing times.

[wanderer]

Of course, aimed shots means that everything goes out the window.

And no real heat scale. Little things like that.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Shar Wolf, on 07 January 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Yes, but you say that about almost every thread!


In other words - he can say whatever he wants

Does not mean anyone has to listen.

Yes and no. The right to free speech does not mean the right to just say whatever, whenever. You're allowed to drop as many F-bombs as loud as you want in the privacy of your own home, or anywhere private for that matter. Out on the sidewalk in public earshot, you've overstepped your bounds of obscenity. Likewise if on private property and the property owner doesn't care to listen to what you have to say, their property owners rights trump your freedom of speech.

Same goes for protesting, you can do it peaceably and stay within the guidelines of Miller's obscenities (ie no '**** the popo' like mantras) til the cows come home if you're on public property. If you're on private property, you're subject to the property owner's rights. So when she/he says GTFO, you GTFO.

The problem with most American's (mis)understanding of the Bill of Rights is... well... a lack of actually having to study them. They've started assuming that because they have 'freedom of speech' they can say what they want when they want to. They've literally interpreted it as "I'm a grown man so I can say what I want you're obliged to listen to it." I like to call it Entitlement Syndrome.

[Walluh]

Privately owned forums do not fall under any free speech laws, sorry.

[Yokaiko]

wanderer, on 07 January 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

Of course, aimed shots means that everything goes out the window.

And no real heat scale. Little things like that.

The heat scale is modeled after TT, very close to it actually.

Remember, in TT, all of the heat you generated for a turn had the heat sinks subtracted THEN the remainder applied to the mechs running heat level. MWO functions much the same way, whether you do the subtraction, or just amp the heat cap doesn't matter its the same net effect.

Being real time, its one of the few well modeled aspects of the game.

.....all of the "bonuses" i.e ammo blowing off, random shutdowns and whatnot, that adds a little more RNG then I would be comfortable with.

....slowing and UI blurr I could deal with.

Edited by Yokaiko, 07 January 2015 - 03:27 PM.