46 replies to this topic

[Ninthshadow]

Warning: This is pretty long. read the bullet-points and bold if you want the short version.

As far as I am aware, Clan lights have a pretty bad reputation. Even as a rather Diehard light player I find it hard to disagree with these arguments. If Clan only hit the regular queues, the only reason we might see Clan lights on the field in regular games is typically down to 4x3 or doing it for the hell of it.

Given our latest intel on community warfare:

Quote

Drop Ship Mode
Drop Ship mode is being changed to a minimum and maximum tonnage limit rather than a strict 1 Light/1 Medium/1 Heavy/1 Assault limit. For example, we might set the Drop Ship limitation to [140] tons minimum and [240] tons maximum. You MUST take 4 'Mechs meaning you cannot take 2 100 ton 'Mechs and leave the other two slots empty. The available tonnage is restricted to your personal Drop Ship. This means if you take under [240] tons, the remaining unused tonnage is NOT shared with the rest of your team.

What are the chances of lights being anything more than filler to the dropdeck? Allow me to explain my train of thought.

Vs IS:
Clan lights are too slow for Striking or Scouting, two out of the three things I consider ‘main roles’ for lights in general. Against particularly optimised teams, the mediums and probably even the heavies are going to be able to chase down a Clan light, so any role regarding striking or closer range hit and run is right out the window.

Only thing a Clan light can do better than the IS counterparts is boat missiles and harass with long range weaponry. Which is all well and good, I suppose because that’s what their designed to do on paper. Unfortunately, that’s all they can do and as is already stated, they can be chased down hard.

There is the strange, nebulous role of support to consider. Notably with the Kitfox C arm. 3 AMS, ECM and you have a heck of a good umbrella for all your anti-LRM needs. ECM is nothing to be sneezed at, especially for the rather sparsely ECM equipped clans. For the unforgiving and I daresay ‘competitive’ environment of CW however, the fact is rain is not on the forecast. This limits the benefit.

Vs IS Summary:
+ Missile Boat loadouts (With low ammo? So... questionable.)
+ Good Harassers (They’ll give a 3L a run for their money)
+ ECM (Sorry Adder, you’re out.)

- Speed. Anything up to heavies can chase you down if they want to.
- Can’t reliably strike like they can. Yes, they have a hell of a punch, but no momentum to get out after.
- Once again because of speed, scouting is sub-optimal but not impossible.

Ninth’s verdict: IS lights will eat Clan lights for breakfast on paper. Harassing from range is all we’ve got.

Vs Clans.
Oh boy. Clan Lights are in trouble. The Stormcrow and the Ice ferret outrun you, for a measly increase in tonnage. They outgun the lights by a significant margin. They’ve got a snowball's chance in hell of striking and they can scout just as well as you can.

Clan Lights have two saving graces: ECM, and a very low profile. You are about half the size of the Stormcrow and the Ice Ferret is at least as tall as a centurion. They cannot carry ECM so they WILL get spotted on radar.

If you bring the right gear, you could probably be the ninja spotter far better than anyone else. This relies on your team deciding to use the unconventional tactic of LRMs, and them not minding a mech that probably has a single large pulse to it’s name.

Unfortunately, even the ECM advantage is going to have trouble sticking in the wider picture: The Hellbringer is probably going to bring enough ECM for the average CW team.

Not sure there is much more to say here, besides rolling up the

Vs Clan Summary:
+ Their lights are exactly the same as yours!
+ You're still tiny and adorable. You also considerately take up the least space in a dropship.
+ For you RP types: Bidding Clan lights for anything is going to be brave or crazy, and worth some serious cred if you pull it off.
+ There is arguably a spot for the Clan light scouting. Being so small and carrying ECM, you are significantly harder to see than a Clan Medium. However, you will have to be specifically built for covert spotting and scouting for this because...

- Clan mediums are as fast, if not faster than you are.
- Clan Mediums carry more guns than you (usually).
- Clan Mediums have more armor than you.
- Clan Mediums are taller for ridge sniping, have more tonnage for ammo and can actually mix it up at close range.

Ninth’s verdict: Anything Clan Lights can do, a Clan Medium can do better. Clan lights are basically dropship fillers. Benchwarmers and Cheerleaders of the Touman.

So, even as a light enthusiast, there is my grim prediction. It has been a fact of life forever and a day for the competitive crowd (or so I have gathered). But now, when Clan vs IS will potentially matter as the community at large dips their toes into “playing to win”, The Clan lights are going to be a burden to any team gracious enough to take them or unfortunate enough to be stuck with them because of the MM or arbitrary reasons.

I guess this is the part where I’m secretly hoping someone comes in and shines a light on what possible use someone who primarily pilots Clan lights is going to be in CW.

Otherwise, I am just going to have to keep saving for the Timberwolves to go with these Stormcrows because the Lights aren’t invited. Put simply, the gameplay and 'roles' for they are meant to play are not supported by the weight class.

Kitfox might make it in by bribing the doorman with his shiny ECM, but the Mist Lynx is going to show up fashionably late with that plus more speed. Even then, they fall into the area of mediocre or 'suboptimal'.

So, on the unfortunate assumption I am right: How would you make them viable? It will not happen before the first attacks I am sure, but just maybe next year we can get them quirked to eleven and have some appeal next to the fast Clan mediums.

[mmstahlman]

This is actually stopping me from going clan... No lights seems like a problem when you have to have a full drop deck ready for community warfare.

[Bongfu]

The way I view the clans on the TT and now in MWO is they have a top down approach to warfare. Their assaults are disgustingly armed. Clan Heavies fall into either fire support or quick strikers. Clan Mediums fill the niche of scouting, striking, harassing, fire support, etc. Clan lights are the way to squeeze out extra warriors in the bidding process. Yeah, they will get eaten by IS lights, but remember: There was literally hundreds of years of Clan vs Clan action. Clan philosophy did not dictate the need for light mechs like the Innersphere's apporach did.

So it is something that the Clan units will just have to adapt to. Sure lights will be fillers on most teams, but those who master using Clan lights are going to be unstoppable.

[Grantham Besat]

You ever see what a streak boat badder or cute fox can do to a jenner or fire starter? Sure IS lights are evil back hunters but they really hate homing srms. I have been putting alot of thought into how clanners can handle IS mechs. If anyone wants to brain storm about stuff look me up ingame between 8 and 10pm est time. CHHx is founded on making sure the clans win. We welcome any and all people to a discussion on how to make that happen.

Edited by Grantham Besat, 03 November 2014 - 12:54 AM.

[Nik Reaper]

Have to agree with this guy ^ , using SSrm's clans can get rid of Is lights strikers and act as area denial , as the streaks go as far as 390m with mod and Ssrms 6 fire every 5s with eff. and mod. We might see something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...edd09580955464a and http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f8fec73fb4895fc .

Even a medium doesn't like an ssrm 20 hitting it, so the kitfox can work with ssrm 12 and the adder with ssrm 20 or 24, so it's true that they can't do the role that IS lights do, but clan has a different flavor to it, so instead of being jenner heroes they are escort mechs adding firepower, ecm and being a light repellant. Right now not many use Ssrm builds as teams take IS lights, being a hero jenner or ERL raven is more fun and rewarding, but when there is no choice in the matter I belive that clan lights will be most usefull as Ssrm carriers and long range laser harrasers.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 03 November 2014 - 02:14 AM.

[Lily from animove]

low profile? where? non of the clan lights atm can even cross the HPG ramps underneath, while most IS lights can.
With the current distribution we will hardly see clanlights in CW, if any, the lynx because one wants to save tonnage for 3 heavies. others than that we will see mostly heavies and mediums, probbaly SCR's and the new ferret for its speed. but hardly any clanlights.

And don't forget, CW will be different youc an't make a 24 srm lights, because that won' last long if you really survive. in CW lasers will be important for pilots who expect to stay alive a bit longer, because lasers are not relying on ammo.

Adder plays nice with 2 PPC's in the Torsi, but still not competitive enough.

[Grantham Besat]

That was the purpose of streaks they conserve ammo unlike dumb fire weapons. I think assaults clan side are in danger of not being used more lights.

[R3kk3N]

look tears for over powered clan mechs... this cracks me up

[Grantham Besat]

Not tears just objectively looking for a way to make the best 240 ton drop deck that can handle the IS mechs and be fast enough to handle a huge map. Sped, firepower, and endurance have to be balanced to atack and defend using just 4 mechs.

[CyclonerM]

Ninthshadow, on 02 November 2014 - 07:29 PM, said:

As far as I am aware, Clan lights have a pretty bad reputation. Even as a rather Diehard light player I find it hard to disagree with these arguments. If Clan only hit the regular queues, the only reason we might see Clan lights on the field in regular games is typically down to 4x3 or doing it for the hell of it.

Vs IS:
Clan lights are too slow for Striking or Scouting, two out of the three things I consider ‘main roles’ for lights in general. Against particularly optimised teams, the mediums and probably even the heavies are going to be able to chase down a Clan light, so any role regarding striking or closer range hit and run is right out the window.

Only thing a Clan light can do better than the IS counterparts is boat missiles and harass with long range weaponry. Which is all well and good, I suppose because that’s what their designed to do on paper. Unfortunately, that’s all they can do and as is already stated, they can be chased down hard.

There is the strange, nebulous role of support to consider. Notably with the Kitfox C arm. 3 AMS, ECM and you have a heck of a good umbrella for all your anti-LRM needs. ECM is nothing to be sneezed at, especially for the rather sparsely ECM equipped clans. For the unforgiving and I daresay ‘competitive’ environment of CW however, the fact is rain is not on the forecast. This limits the benefit.

I do not agree so much with this negative view of Clan lights.

They are not optimized for scouting, even if in the lore they are used as scouts too (especially the Kit Fox C), i see it.

However, AMS/ECM support and assault escort is a very useful role in 10-12men drops. Currently, at least two Kit Foxes are necessary for a good ECM coverage of the binary/company; it is fast enough to bring ECM cover where it is needed, and the range to suppress and fight back . I could see Streak Foxes and Adders being a nightmare for IS lights, especially if using a TAG..

I recognize the Adder has a harder time finding a place in a drop deck, as its main strenghts are slightly superior armor and podspace than the Kit Fox , but it cannot carry neither JJs nor ECM. It can be used as a SRM/LRM boat to some effect, though. I expect interesting quirks to help its situation.

However, the Mist Lynx will probably be the new most common light in MWO. As it is in the the lowest-tier pack, many players , including myself, will be able to unlock speed tweak, making it almost as fast as my Jenner, with ECM, JJs and a better firepower due to powerful Clan weapons. It may have a good chance against Spiders and companions.

Quote

Vs Clans.
Oh boy. Clan Lights are in trouble. The Stormcrow and the Ice ferret outrun you, for a measly increase in tonnage. They outgun the lights by a significant margin. They’ve got a snowball's chance in hell of striking and they can scout just as well as you can.

Clan Lights have two saving graces: ECM, and a very low profile. You are about half the size of the Stormcrow and the Ice Ferret is at least as tall as a centurion. They cannot carry ECM so they WILL get spotted on radar.

If you bring the right gear, you could probably be the ninja spotter far better than anyone else. This relies on your team deciding to use the unconventional tactic of LRMs, and them not minding a mech that probably has a single large pulse to it’s name.

Unfortunately, even the ECM advantage is going to have trouble sticking in the wider picture: The Hellbringer is probably going to bring enough ECM for the average CW team.

Since when the Stormcrow outruns lights that have the same speed, unless it has speed tweak and the lights do not have it?
The Ice Ferret will outrun Kit Foxes and Adders, but it pays with the lack of JJs and less space for weapons (and less hardpoints then the Nova, for example). They are a bit like the Gargoyle compared to the Summoner, or even better, the Cicada compared to a slow Jenner.

Btw, looking at the pictures, the Ice Ferret is almost as tall as the Centurion.

I see the usefulness of the Hellbringer, however being a 60$ pack not everyone will have it, and some will not like it. I like that its Prime configuration is very similar to the Warhammer, but i am not a big fan of it (that may change however ), so i will bring a Timber Wolf and, if i need to drop 5 tons, my Summoner (which is not so bad!). At least until the Hellbringer comes out for c-bills.

Oh, and btw, it takes weight. If you want to use heavier 'Mechs, you could drop tons on the ECM 'Mech using a Kit Fox or a Mist Lynx and bring, for example, another heavy/assault with the 40/35 tons you save

[Lily from animove]

Grantham Besat, on 03 November 2014 - 04:10 AM, said:

That was the purpose of streaks they conserve ammo unlike dumb fire weapons. I think assaults clan side are in danger of not being used more lights.

but without a possibility to tell ssrm's where to go, they are crap, one does always go to the legs, and you can not use them to shoot of a specific wounded arm or leg, because they always try to go to the CT except that one missile or two depending on the size of the ssrm.

[Koniving]

Heh... The speed issue wouldn't be an issue if instead of intervals of "5" for engine sizes, the IS had intervals of its weight class.

i.e.
Spider has to choose engine sizes from 30, 60, 90, 120, 150, 180, 210, 240(stock), 270, 300.
Jenner has to choose engine sizes from 35, 70, 105, 140, 175, 210, 245(stock), 280, 315.
Firestarter has to choose engine sizes from 35, 70, 105, 140, 175, 210(stock), 245, 280, 315.
Try fitting adequate weapons and cooling with those high weight engine changes. Drastic weight changes call for big redesigns, and no free "5" rating upgrade on XL engines going from 275 to 280 (which weigh exactly the same).

Then again you'd probably see a lot more standard engine IS lights, too.

Edited by Koniving, 03 November 2014 - 05:51 AM.

[Noesis]

Interesting points regarding the streak use, I might have to explore the potential of Clan lights when boating these.

ECM is one of the useful offerings of the kit fox in a support role but I do see that the Hellbringer will be more useful in the main formation as a support mech here. As such it does tend to remove one of the main attractions of using the Kit fox.

Interestingly if they ever introduce the Phantom (Clan Medium) with ECM I can see this replacing the defacto Clan light as it would effectively operate equivalent to a Cicada but with Clan capabilities with a speed roughly 150kph. This then being seen as the potential scout or spotter equivalent as per IS and with the optional tonnage ranges for an individial drop deck I would see being preferable to use. It is dated 3052 and despite the obvious impact to Clan lights it is a mech I would love to see introduced.

Maybe it is time that an alternative faster omni platform be offered for the existing lights so that a faster engine option choice could be applied?

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 03 November 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

Maybe it is time that an alternative faster omni platform be offered for the existing lights so that a faster engine option choice could be applied?

Neg, because it does not exist without a total redesign. It would be another chassis. Please, enjoy your Mist Lynx

[Noesis]

CyclonerM, on 03 November 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Neg, because it does not exist without a total redesign. It would be another chassis. Please, enjoy your Mist Lynx

I think you missunderstand Cycloner, it would be the same chassis but a little different from the stock variant. Which i realise would be a move away from the more lore centric focus to these things. But the idea is more to have a variant with a differing engine rating or at least one slightly more faster than currently. It would not necessarily even have to be of equivalent speeds to IS.

Alternatively as per other changed precidents with the way PGI has changed some aspects from Lore you could just up the engine rating on the existing omni-platform definitions and attribute the associated balanced values with weight etc. be they for all variants or just the odd one for each chassis that exist currently. None of which would require a "total redesign" at all, just a tweaking of the existing mechanics already in use and the understood canon values applied to the variants.

Edited by Noesis, 03 November 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 03 November 2014 - 06:40 AM, said:

I think you missunderstand Cycloner, it would be the same chassis but a little different from the stock variant. Which i realise would be a move away from the more lore centric focus to these things. But the idea is more to have a variant with a differing engine rating or at least one slightly more faster than currently. It would not necessarily even have to be of equivalent speeds to IS.

Alternatively as per other changed precidents with the way PGI has changed some aspects from Lore you could just up the engine rating on the existing omni-platform definitions and attribute the associated balanced values with weight etc. be they for all variants or just the odd one for each chassis that exist currently. None of which would require a "total redesign" at all, just a tweaking of the existing mechanics already in use and the understood canon values applied to the variants.

The engine is fixed and hard-wired, so even a 1cm³ bigger engine makes it a new chassis requiring a redesign. I simply prefer to respect the rules

[Jagger225]

I agree with MMstahlman. I wanted to go clan and even bought all three SCR (my c-bill IS wallet suffered for this!) but I can't seem to like the lights. It makes me want to stick with IS. It's a shame for Clan lights.
I do like the discussions of why they are the way they are! I'm totally looking forward to ECM BUBBLING those streak boats and srming/lazing them to death.

[Grantham Besat]

when does hitting a certain point mater when light mechs have paper armor so any hit is a good hit? even with lasers etc your not getting perfect hits on the little buggers thanks to lag shield

[Noesis]

CyclonerM, on 03 November 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

The engine is fixed and hard-wired, so even a 1cm³ bigger engine makes it a new chassis requiring a redesign. I simply prefer to respect the rules

You don't have to redraw the mech to change the engine rating and how it performs, these are settings in game files. PGI have changed many aspects of the base lore used as precidents for the interests of balance. In fact for this purpose the majority of Clan tech operates no way like clan lore due to the objective of balancing IS vs Clan tech more. The idea of changing the engine rating slightly to improve on clan light capabilities for the interests of overall gameplay balance and allowing the full spectrum of gameplay choice for piloting styles and to allow more viability to the the Clan drop deck with the light class then hardly a radical move or one that dratiscally changes the way in which the lore mechanics operate or how core rules understand them.

Tweaking the existing engine ratings for Clan lights to at least afford them a little more speed whilst still not outperforming IS lights in this area then allows for a better viability of platform choice. And tbh the idea of relegating the game play viability of clan classes to 3 out of 4 (if such a change is perceived as helpful to balance the current performance of Clan lights for MWO) just makes good sense to me from a design perspective and to offer more playstyle choices.

For me: choice and gameplay fun > rules. Thats why PGI use them as precidents.

Edited by Noesis, 03 November 2014 - 07:17 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Noesis, on 03 November 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

You don't have to redraw the mech to change the engine rating and how it performs, these are settings in game files. PGI have changed many aspects of the base lore used as precidents for the interests of balance. In fact for this purpose the majority of Clan tech operates no way like clan lore due to the objective of balancing IS vs Clan tech more. The idea of changing the engine rating slightly to improve on clan light capabilities for the interests of overall gameplay balance and allowing the full spectrum of gameplay choice for piloting styles and to allow more viability to the the Clan drop deck with the light class then hardly a radical move or one that dratiscally changes the way in which the lore mechanics operate or how core rules understand them.

Tweaking the existing engine ratings for Clan lights to at least afford them a little more speed whilst still not outperforming IS lights in this area then allows for a better viability of platform choice. And tbh the idea of relegating the game play viability of clan classes to 3 out of 4 (if such a change is perceived as helpful to balance the current performance of Clan lights for MWO) just makes good sense to me from a design perspective and to offer more playstyle choices.

For me: choice and gameplay fun > rules. Thats why PGI use them as precidents.

Then you really did not understand what i meant

In the lore, modyfing the base chassis AKA engine, armor, fixed armor/structure slots, fixed weapons/equipment, requires a "redesign", basically you have to create a whole new OmniMech; simply put, if you have an Adder, you cannot change its engine rating , because it would not be an Adder anymore.

I like to have some challenges sometimes.. It is not like every single 'Mech out there is designed around my own desires and customization is already way too free and cost-less, especially for IS 'Mechs.

My point is always that.. If they have already changed some things from the lore.. That is a reason to not change more I want to play a BattleTech game..

Edited by CyclonerM, 03 November 2014 - 08:07 AM.