Gut, on 10 January 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:
I'll try to blanket statement the last day's replies:
The implementation is not complicated, it's quite simple. The fallout from it is quite complicated however, because it changes player behaviour. I believe it does this in a good way.
For those not on the competitive/unit/elitist side of things:
Stop being ridiculous about the expectations of groups. Groups are allowed to have expectations just as much as you are, so if you don't have something CONSTRUCTIVE to say, don't say anything at all. If you think that having fun should impact a map and potential benefits from a map in the future, you need to reevaluate the (bad word) lore, the (bad word) tabletop resources, and especially the fact that fun should impact something persistent rather than skill OR numbers. This may seem like I'm being elitist, but all you want to do is have fun, the map SHOULD NOT MATTER to you, especially to the point where you effect it.
On a related note, I think that units involvement should be around the level it is now, but their impact needs to be based more on skill and less on numbers. I bring up again: If 300 Spartans CAN win against 10,000 Persians, they SHOULD be able to.
For those that wouldn't play at all with this:
I hope your impact, financial or otherwise, goes into something that isn't persistent, because, for many of you (not Mischeif), you need to not impact something that is "supposed" to matter. Ideas that just let you play as much as you want without penalty and just have fun SHOULD NOT matter to something that by design means more.
For those that believe the queue times would be higher/harder to get a match:
By design you will be able to get more matches on different planets much easier. You'll see a match available on a number of planets instead of just 2.
I liked a lot of the suggestions that maybe tone it down a little bit, but you have to realize that a number of resources shouldn't win over skill unless they are in number enough to take down the skill. All of these ideas so far still give too much power to the numbers/resources, in my opinion.
All hail an actual skill based Solaris system when it comes out.
I'm all for the idea; just that you need something like 4 complete decks (16 lost mechs) per world per 8 hour period. That's losing 1 match every 2 hours as a complete wipe per planet. That means you can win with 2 light mech zerg rushes back to back 8 times in an 8 hour period on a world and that's it - you've just blown all the support you can give that world. You play a more complex shell game (mix of attrition and slow rush) and keep losses between you and the other team similar until you push the generator? You may get 10 or 12 games on a world in that timeframe but more critically - you're pushing the defenders into the same boat. They lost as much as you did in terms of mechs and if you won the objective (defend or attack) you are coming out significantly ahead.
The biggest issue I come down to though is that comp teams will in turn absolutely dominate the game. Absolutely and completely without question. Maps will change based on top tier comp teams and nothing else. Not yet sure how to fix that, or if it should be fixed, but if you actually want more people to play MW:O and CW you can't have that. Elitist game environments are flat out toxic for the long-term survival of a game when the whole game is geared towards the super-competitive environment.
Then again if worlds are changing every 8 hours then it functionally opens a lot more fronts. While comp teams will be significant and get the rewards they earn there is enough 'prey in the woods' for other teams to feel likely they are contributing, taking worlds and making a difference.
Just remember that there are factions like Liao that have 1 active border. 1. Marik? 1, sometimes 2. That's it, that's all they have, that's all they will ever have. The answer to that is not 'pfft, their fault for picking a bad faction'. Eliminating whole houses from the list of viable options isn't a solution.
Also pugging the Clan Border isn't a reasonable option. Southern Houses (rimward if you want to really nerd it up) have absolutely nothing at all in any way to gain by fighting on the Clan borders. In fact it would often involve helping their enemies. Nothing like pugging to defend the Kurita border then popping out of a match to see Kurita attacking a Davion world. Same thing with Liao; even if they're defending an ally they get...... nothing. Cbills and LP. No benefit for their house for their time and losses. That 'drops worth of time' was invested for someone else and from which they will not and can not receive real benefit.
Ergo the idea of 'well you can find matches elsewhere' has limited appeal. You just need to make sure that there are enough worlds that are relevant to each faction being fought over to make everyone feel like they are having a useful contribution not just top tier comp teams and you need to make sure those options are ones that have a use to the Faction in question.
I'm partial to SJ and Liao (possibly Jade Falcon) having the ability to engage in attacks on the Clan/IS border, not just defense. If they take a world they do NOT take it for the faction they are fighting alongside; they keep it. This would let them open new fronts if they have the population and skill to do it.
I'm 100% on board with something like what you're putting forward being the direction we need to go. It just needs to be part of a more comprehensive package. SJ, for example, you get to fight Kurita. That's it. Liao? They get to fight Davion. I did some math on the border populations and actually Liao would have to take something like 160 worlds to open up a border with Kurita.... who is still their ally. The only front they will ever get to take worlds on is Davion. SJ is in a similar situation; you might cut a path to FRR but it's unlikely. Jade Falcon, same issue with Steiner. When CW stretches from months into years this is going to be a compounded issue. While Clans may be okay with a little border skirmish now and again Liao is never going to attack Marik - that's the only real useful ally they have ever and will ever have.
What's important is that as PGI makes improvements to CW they keep these ideas together as an overall whole objective. Logistics is a must-have for me. However it also needs to take into account different faction map positions and be bundled with options to keep logistics from pigeon-holing entire factions. In the long term that will cripple whole factions and their relevance to the game. Short term fixes that make long term issues (ECM/LRM balancing anyone? Pinpoint convergence/doubling armor? It's a long list) is something that can be avoided by just taking the long term issues into consideration when making short term fixes.
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