83 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 11:58 PM, said:

...Just read the posts I've made previously. If you feel the way you do, then so be it, I've already listed my thoughts and my numerical observations. My opinion is worth as much as yours, and neither of us will convince the other. However, I strongly feel that LRMs would benefit from some adjustment such that they are not the most situationally (in)effective weapons system in the game. Unfortunately, it does feel that for some reason a large portion of the player base just plain dislikes them or feels they should only be effective at weakening, rather than killing.

If I didn't read your posts I wouldn't have posted a number of counter arguments, most of which you seem to have ignored.

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For the record, I don't run any "boating" mechs (especially LRM mechs) without some type of backup weapons, but often said backup weapons are more of a gesture than something that is often useful, as a few MLs are usually insufficient to handle most dedicated LRM hunters.

If it's a consistent problem to get blasted by LRM hunters then maybe do something differently.

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I DO feel though that your stormcrow player there has every right to run whatever build he likes, and the Cat A-1 would like a word with you.

They can load up a bunch of LRMs like that if they feel like it, and then very likely get blasted in the face in short range with no recourse because they should have brought some other weapons instead of exclusively boating indirect fire weapons.

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As for my team - well, you don't get to pick your PUG-mates, so please get off your pedestal.

My point is that's not a good reason to screw around with a weapon system in such a way, but it sounds like you need to not wander off from the rest of your team as much if they're not around to help.

[Praehotec8]

Pjwned, on 13 January 2015 - 12:28 AM, said:

1. If I didn't read your posts I wouldn't have posted a number of counter arguments, most of which you seem to have ignored.

2. If it's a consistent problem to get blasted by LRM hunters then maybe do something differently.

3. They can load up a bunch of LRMs like that if they feel like it, and then very likely get blasted in the face in short range with no recourse because they should have brought some other weapons instead of exclusively boating indirect fire weapons.

4. My point is that's not a good reason to screw around with a weapon system in such a way, but it sounds like you need to not wander off from the rest of your team as much if they're not around to help.

1. I ignored yours no more than you've ignored mine.

2. Did I say that I did? Don't read more into what is said than what is there. It does not happen often, for a variety of reasons, but when it does it is annoying because often there is little that could be done to prevent it. Literally no other weapon system besides standard PPCs has no ability to deal damage close range. If LRMs were a top-tier weapon system at all levels of play that would be acceptable, but they are not.

3. Sorry, but this type of argument really, really bugs me. If this were truly the answer, everyone would be running stock builds that are prepared for multiple ranges. Instead, many players run very specialized builds that focus around one or two specific weapon types. Again, LRMs are largely the only boated system that can't (always) be used in a brawl. For example (again) boating ERLL would not perhaps be the best in a brawl, but surely would be more useful than LRMs (and LL boats have most assuredly been a "thing" in this game). Many people spout this argument off, but it really often sounds just a bit hypocritical.

4. Did I say I wandered off? When I do, it assuredly is my own fault, but oftentimes you can be right by your team, and if no one happens to be looking at you, you will likely get no assistance if flanked. I've seen it happen many times, both to me and to others.

Feel free to respond as you like, this will be my last post in this thread, I give up trying to convince anyone of the merits of at least considering this change (you win, if you prefer to think of it as such). In the future though, please refrain from falling back on the, "L2P N00B," type arguments. We're never as good as we (all of us) think we are, and it never helps to assume you are better, or that the person you are addressing is a poor player. Plus, it is insulting, and more likely to get into an argument than a constructive discussion. Believe me, I understand the weapons in this game as well as you, although my opinions of them (and how changes may affect them) surely differ.

[Latorque]

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

AC20 - The IS AC20 is the premier brawling weapon in the game. It puts huge holes in things, I don't think anyone can argue that even buffed LRMs would come close. I would kill to have an IS AC20 on many of my clan mechs. Remember we're talking essentially about a change to LRMs at effectively 0-100m.

So the AC20 outclasses LRMs as a brawling weapon? I damn well hope so; otherwise there would be little reason to bring one, right? Oh; and please put one AC20 round right on that component you want to blast off while under a constant LRM barrage <180m; i want to see that. Weight is still punishing, range is still severly limited; ammocount is still rather on the low side.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Gauss - Assuming personal anecdotes such as you put forth, I have no problem in a brawl with gauss. They do very efficient and cool pinpoint damage, and most of the time when it explodes you've already lost. I'm much happier getting up close when running gauss than I am when running LRMs.

See AC20 above. Claims of Gauss mastery aside; this would be even more interesting in a match against "brawlworthy" LRMs. I very much doubt an equipped Gauss would lead to tears of joy while looking out of a constantly explosion-filled cockpit.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

ERPPC - Yes, it is quite hot, but the fact remains that if needed, it can be used (and very effectively) all along its range.

it sure is. And the defining disadvantage is still the need for most artful heat management - being shut down in a brawl isn't fun most of the time, unless your teammates save your hide. Even the overpopular TBR-builds aren't that dangerous once up close.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

Large lasers - See ERPPC, same thing.

Not frontloaded; you need to keep them on target - exaclty on the component you want to roast; and not just in the general direction of the enemy as with LRMs. Double fun when combined with screen shake; but i'm getting tired of typing those two words.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

SSRM - Read my last few posts. Plus, cSSRMs have a range of 360m by the way.

uuh, those are nasty. And they have a limited range. I see less threads going for a range extension for SRMs / SSRMs - it would fall in the same vein.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

AMS - Sure, AMS is useful to varying degrees against LRMs, and some people do run it, but the bald fact is that LRMs are not good enough to make MOST experienced players bother running AMS. Most players would rather have the extra 1.5 tons for other things. Plus, it has little bearing on this particular discussion.

Correct; AMS is never factoring in my builds. It takes up precious amounts of slots and tonnage that are sorely needed for actual weapon systems and barely makes a dent in LRM salvoes anyway. Yet i hate going out there without my beloved RDM. AMS still exists as one of the countersystem specifically designed to protect against LRMs. There aren't any modules deisgned to counteract direct fire weapons; mainly because they're less prone to utterly dominating a game when unchecked.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

All the rest of your post is basically why you don't like LRMs, but as far as I understand, the LRMs are not really top tier weapons by anyone's imagination.

No, i don't like them - i accept them as part of the game; but it's the part that most easily breaks the game when buffed - the last speed buff being an excellent example. I've played them too! Mastering the Catapult and the Awesome made this unavoidable. I certainly couldn't complain about lack of damage or kills; long before the speed buff.

Praehotec8, on 12 January 2015 - 05:09 PM, said:

"If you boat missiles; and someone manages to break the 180m line; he has deserved it to chew your ass off. Most of the time; he's an armless wreck who had to go through at least two of your teammates."

First of all, often in a PUG game, even if you are only 150-200m behind the main battle line, a single enemy light often can sneak up on an LRM boat, and often no one on your team will notice or bother to assist you. Why do they deserve a kill without any real effort or skill required anymore than an LRM mech can indirect fire at long range (about 20-40% accuracy by what I've seen posted for people's LRM accuracy)? Sneaking up behind is pretty easy to do, but is useless against any other mech except LRM boats.

Most of the time close combat can be kept at between 150-200m (which already overlaps with the range for streaks and SRMs), which is fine for an LRM boat, and no one is screaming that LRMs are godlike there, so why would letting them keep the same power to 0m be worse? We're talking about a few limited scenarios.

I know I won't convince you, you've already decided you don't enjoy LRMs, but hey, thanks for posting anyways.

Out of curiosity; do you pilot lights? I do (though they're not my favourite class); and i very well know that they enjoy some heavy Hitregistration issues (FS and SDR-chassis comes to mind); which interestingly enough is their saving grace when going up against the current mega-alphastrikes. The scenario you describe is... not really a regular occurence; and while i seriously enjoy frying missile boats when i find them on their own, you need quite a lot of time to chew down their armor; if their buddies show up you better get out of there. Maneuvering back there is not an artform, but it's not advisable without knowledge of the map and a lick of situational awareness (and i get killed on a regular basis while trying just that). It definitly isn't auto-targeting kill mode though.

So; every single weapon system and every situation has its countereffect in some way, and for the record; atm the game is in a rather solid place balancewise. Not perfect of course - games of this kind never are - but i don't feel completely out of place in any of my mechs; fielding any weapon system.

Your demand of bringing full LRM damage <180m is basically a call for a weapon system without any kind of disadvantage. Low heat, low weight / damage-tradeoff, high ammo count per ton, absurd screenshake, giant range bracket, little to none targeting skill required, inescapable when fired on lock close up - a remaining "weakness" being the damage scattered across the whole mech instead of going pinpoint to the CT (since you'll barely see undamaged mechs except for those sneaky lights - and those are light on armor btw, HSR issues don't work against autotargeting missile systems - those massive salvoes should take off components quite nicely i guess)

I know i won't convince you out of LRMs being severely disadvantaged and completely UP; but thanks for opening the thread.

Edited by Latorque, 13 January 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[Pjwned]

Praehotec8, on 13 January 2015 - 02:35 AM, said:

1. I ignored yours no more than you've ignored mine.

Sure, directly responding to your points is ignoring them, cool story; keep being a tool.

EDIT: I even went back and read your posts again and saw nothing that I actually ignored, meanwhile you don't have a response so you just ignore my points and act like I ignored yours so that you can just weasel out of it.

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2. Did I say that I did? Don't read more into what is said than what is there. It does not happen often, for a variety of reasons, but when it does it is annoying because often there is little that could be done to prevent it.

Usually if there was little to be done then you either got outplayed or made a mistake, or both; the rest of the time is your teammates doing poorly and you don't screw around with established weapon systems just because of that.

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Literally no other weapon system besides standard PPCs has no ability to deal damage close range. If LRMs were a top-tier weapon system at all levels of play that would be acceptable, but they are not.

That may be but the minimum range penalty is there for a reason, and there are other ways to improve LRMs such as making ECM less ridiculous.

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3. Sorry, but this type of argument really, really bugs me. If this were truly the answer, everyone would be running stock builds that are prepared for multiple ranges. Instead, many players run very specialized builds that focus around one or two specific weapon types. Again, LRMs are largely the only boated system that can't (always) be used in a brawl. For example (again) boating ERLL would not perhaps be the best in a brawl, but surely would be more useful than LRMs (and LL boats have most assuredly been a "thing" in this game). Many people spout this argument off, but it really often sounds just a bit hypocritical.

LRMs are the only indirect fire weapon in the game and they have potential to deal full damage over 900m away, so it makes sense that they have a weakness in close range because that makes it balanced.

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4. Did I say I wandered off? When I do, it assuredly is my own fault, but oftentimes you can be right by your team, and if no one happens to be looking at you, you will likely get no assistance if flanked. I've seen it happen many times, both to me and to others.

Feel free to respond as you like, this will be my last post in this thread, I give up trying to convince anyone of the merits of at least considering this change (you win, if you prefer to think of it as such). In the future though, please refrain from falling back on the, "L2P N00B," type arguments. We're never as good as we (all of us) think we are, and it never helps to assume you are better, or that the person you are addressing is a poor player. Plus, it is insulting, and more likely to get into an argument than a constructive discussion. Believe me, I understand the weapons in this game as well as you, although my opinions of them (and how changes may affect them) surely differ.

You simply blame your team and those pesky light mechs for getting killed without elaborating further at first, so if you want a large drawback removed from LRMs so that you can safely brawl with them (so that light mechs would have little recourse against an LRM boat) then a logical conclusion is an issue with the pilot.

Edited by Pjwned, 13 January 2015 - 01:09 PM.