313 replies to this topic

[Zamiake]

no i dont think of that they gave up rather they just got freaking bored there is no one in the IS to play against. Was doing some attacks and we got 3 freebies verus someone cause no one was there to defend

[Kinski Orlawisch]

When my last mech was downed....and I used 4 Mechs with basics not finished, I made Top kills and Top damage. I switched through the mechs and found Flamer Jenner and mechs loadout so crazy, I don t want to talk about it.
For me it is normal that UAVs Pop up at the inc gate....during the defence where I had been...the only UAV came from my mechs....50% Trial mechs in the defence? Hmmmm no nononono.

[IraqiWalker]

operatorZ, on 19 January 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

I firmly disagree with removing the quirks entirely. The 50% heat reduction is a little crazy.....on any weapon.

Which is why we're having a civilized discussion instead of all those idiotic rage posts that pop up here and there.

Kain Thul, on 19 January 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

If by "clan dual gauss mechs" you mean Dire Wolf (which isn't really used in CW) then ok. Don't try to make it sound like there are any other 'mechs that can do that though.

The Warhawk can easily do Dual Gauss (and waste 20 locked DHS) but realistically you're only getting one laser or one SRM for backup---and even then you run so little gauss ammo to not be as viable in CW.

You are correct. I slapped dual gauss when I should have put Single Gauss. I also forgot that the T-Wolf though capable of running dual gauss, ends up being too fragile, and carries too little ammo.

N0MAD, on 19 January 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

Both the CERPPC and IS ERPPC have about the same effective range, the clan weapon may have a slight advantage in range after about the 1250m range, you telling me that a huge advantage? how many batles are at 1250+m? so in reality no real range advantage, but of course if it hasnt the 50% heat reduction and a huge speed advantage it isnt worth using?
Any IS mech can use the long range PPC if they wanted parity in range, but youre saying if its not 50% less heat and significantly faster you cant use it? sounds like justification to use an OP system..
IS has range parity via the Gaus and ERPPC, but keep telling yourself that the 9S is justified cause you lack range weapons.

Ease up on the breaks there N0mad. I think if you check my posts in the forums, you'll see that I've always said the quirks are over done and should be dropped down to 30%-40%.

As for the ERPPC competing with the clan variant: You're wrong if you think 15 heat for 10 damage (at least clans get some splash, for a little bit of oomph), with our DHS, on most other mechs are going to be standing toe to toe with a clan mech armed with ERPPCs, especially if it has equal tonnage. The 9S has a fair shot at long range, which immediately says that it's quirks are overdone/overpowered, since it shouldn't. It should have a somewhat hard time, but still be a reasonable competitor against clan long range.

If an IS mech uses PPCs, or ERPPCs it has the same range, but it doesn't have the same cooling (in the case of the ERPPC), or back up weapons potential. Also, in a competitive set up, every little bit counts. Which is why out of over 100 mechs, only a handful are the top tier.

I personally would not bother running an ERPPC build intentionally against clans. I would focus on medium and short range. The 9S has huge advantages for that build, which is why it's used. Or are you going to tell me that the TDR stood a chance with ERPPCs before the quirks?


For the record, I'm not defending the quirks on the 9S right now.

[N0MAD]

IraqiWalker, on 20 January 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

Stuff..

What you also seem to ignore, well not mention, is the magic called Quirks, i started viewing the IS quirks, go have a look at the amount of Range magic quirks given to IS mechs, really you think Clans actually have range advantage? seems the bulk of IS mechs have magic range amplifiers, go look, and really did i see a Hunchy with half a million quirks (slight exaggeration) but did i really see a 25% energy range Plus a 25% range on Pulse? let me check again.....yep if you actually look at the Magic you will see lots and lots and then LOTS of range magic for IS mechs, range advantage for Clans really? and its not only on energy look at Missile range magic, ballistic range magic. God forbid we go into cooldown/duration magic on these mechs, ya ya make them competitive, got a suggestion, just add a Kill mech button.

[IraqiWalker]

N0MAD, on 20 January 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

What you also seem to ignore, well not mention, is the magic called Quirks, i started viewing the IS quirks, go have a look at the amount of Range magic quirks given to IS mechs, really you think Clans actually have range advantage? seems the bulk of IS mechs have magic range amplifiers, go look, and really did i see a Hunchy with half a million quirks (slight exaggeration) but did i really see a 25% energy range Plus a 25% range on Pulse? let me check again.....yep if you actually look at the Magic you will see lots and lots and then LOTS of range magic for IS mechs, range advantage for Clans really? and its not only on energy look at Missile range magic, ballistic range magic. God forbid we go into cooldown/duration magic on these mechs, ya ya make them competitive, got a suggestion, just add a Kill mech button.

1- Clan mechs will be getting quirks soon™
2- Do all IS mechs have the exact same quirks, with the exact same percentages? (the hunchie quirks are mostly structure and armor)
3- Not ignoring them, but discussing weapon balanced based on adjustable quirks on one or two chassis is not helpful at all. In fact, it is bound to do more damage than good.

[N0MAD]

IraqiWalker, on 20 January 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

1- Clan mechs will be getting quirks soon™
2- Do all IS mechs have the exact same quirks, with the exact same percentages? (the hunchie quirks are mostly structure and armor)
3- Not ignoring them, but discussing weapon balanced based on adjustable quirks on one or two chassis is not helpful at all. In fact, it is bound to do more damage than good.

Its not one or two chassis that have some sort of range magic its alot of them, i would bet there are more IS mechs with range mods that the entire number of Clan mechs, want to make a list of IS mechs with range magic?
Hunchy mostly armor? you cant see the 25% on energy range PLUS the 25% on Pulse thats + 50% on those pulse how much extra range is that on the Clan pulse? giving it a definite range advantage on clans fielding same weapons type, as i said wana make a list of IS mechs with range magic?

[IraqiWalker]

N0MAD, on 20 January 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

Its not one or two chassis that have some sort of range magic its alot of them, i would bet there are more IS mechs with range mods that the entire number of Clan mechs, want to make a list of IS mechs with range magic?
Hunchy mostly armor? you cant see the 25% on energy range PLUS the 25% on Pulse thats + 50% on those pulse how much extra range is that on the Clan pulse? giving it a definite range advantage on clans fielding same weapons type, as i said wana make a list of IS mechs with range magic?

Didn't know MPLs are long range weapons now. Go ahead, and count the range buffs on IS LLs, and ERLLs, and tell me how many of them get to clan range. How many of the IS MLs reach 800 meters with full quirks, btw?

Also, which chassis have those buffs? So far, out of all the IS quirked mechs, only the 9S stands out as being really powerful. The others are mostly okay. Only a 50% range increase on MLs would put them at a range close to C-ERMLs (pre-modules). How many of the IS mechs have 50% range increase for MLs, and how many of them are actually viable, even with the quirks?

[N0MAD]

IraqiWalker, on 20 January 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Didn't know MPLs are long range weapons now. Go ahead, and count the range buffs on IS LLs, and ERLLs, and tell me how many of them get to clan range. How many of the IS MLs reach 800 meters with full quirks, btw?

Also, which chassis have those buffs? So far, out of all the IS quirked mechs, only the 9S stands out as being really powerful. The others are mostly okay. Only a 50% range increase on MLs would put them at a range close to C-ERMLs (pre-modules). How many of the IS mechs have 50% range increase for MLs, and how many of them are actually viable, even with the quirks?

So now we are restricting it to long range rather than range, i see how that works...
So optimum range for a Clan ER is what 740m? and for the IS its what 675, (am i roughly in the ball park here?) thats what 65m, thats just under 10% range diference, CTF-1X, has a 10% to energy range, there is a mech that can match clan long range, PLUS 10% on medium laser..any IS mech with 10% Energy range magic can match clan mechs long range laser.
But i see this isnt getting us anywhere so..
I invite you to our TS to further our case study or im willing to go to yours, as PGI hasnt given us a communal place to meet and chat easily.

PS. or we can meet at a neutral TS, your call.

Edited by N0MAD, 20 January 2015 - 06:26 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

N0MAD, on 20 January 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

So now we are restricting it to long range rather than range, i see how that works...
So optimum range for a Clan ER is what 740m? and for the IS its what 675, (am i roughly in the ball park here?) thats what 65m, thats just under 10% range diference, CTF-1X, has a 10% to energy range, there is a mech that can match clan long range, PLUS 10% on medium laser..any IS mech with 10% Energy range magic can match clan mechs long range laser.
But i see this isnt getting us anywhere so..
I invite you to our TS to further our case study or im willing to go to yours, as PGI hasnt given us a communal place to meet and chat easily.

PS. or we can meet at a neutral TS, your call.

It's all fine, however, I prefer either forum posts, or PMs, since I am not exactly in a situation where I can use TS atm (friends over, and will be going out in about 20 minutes with said friends). (PM me your TS address, and I'll try to connect as soon as I can tomorrow, or whenever you want.)

Also, I said long range specifically, because that's the clan advantage, no one cares if IS Small lasers outrange clan ones. That's not a range advantage. You're already in brawling range when using these weapons, and that's short range, and a range where the IS is supposed to have a really good chance of winning, if not outright trouncing many of their clan competitors.

Basically I was talking about mechs that can slap on big long range guns, and use them as effectively as their clan counterparts. Which, even with quirks, isn't easy to do on most chassis in the IS.

[Demuder]

It's funny how the IS main gripe is "range" in a setting where range only matters for a second or two, on one of the two maps - that is, on Boreal until the attackers open the gates. Conga lining the gate exposes each mech for less than 1 or 2 seconds, while on the move as well. If you open the gates in a different way, you are doing it wrong tbh. If you stay on the ridge and try and snipe with hitscan, you are also doing it wrong.

In that scenario, the only range that is important is the pick-a-boo sniping insta-PPFLD, where the IS ultra-ERPPC TDR and the Dual Gauss Jagger have an overwhelming advantage due to high mounted hardpoints. Both 65ton mechs which can't be matched in efficiency and/or tonnage by anything the Clans might field. A couple of TDRs standing in the middle of the map, inside the gates, focus firing, can control a huge portion of the map due to their turret like insta PPFLD chain firing ERPPCs while the rest of the team pushes right, left or center. So even in that case, the range advantage goes to the IS.

Any other "range" advantage is negated by the maps themselves. So any argument about Clans having a range advantage is moot - if not naive.

And when it comes to closer ranges, IS mechs with their quirks, PPFLD ACs, shorter duration and cooler lasers and the invulnerable lights are more than a match for Clans. The only reason IS is not stomping Clans at medium to brawling ranges is the Clan XL engine and higher average maneuverability of the heavier Clan mechs - a balance that is weirdly quite spot-on.

[IraqiWalker]

Demuder, on 21 January 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

It's funny how the IS main gripe is "range" in a setting where range only matters for a second or two, on one of the two maps - that is, on Boreal until the attackers open the gates. Conga lining the gate exposes each mech for less than 1 or 2 seconds, while on the move as well. If you open the gates in a different way, you are doing it wrong tbh. If you stay on the ridge and try and snipe with hitscan, you are also doing it wrong.

In that scenario, the only range that is important is the pick-a-boo sniping insta-PPFLD, where the IS ultra-ERPPC TDR and the Dual Gauss Jagger have an overwhelming advantage due to high mounted hardpoints. Both 65ton mechs which can't be matched in efficiency and/or tonnage by anything the Clans might field. A couple of TDRs standing in the middle of the map, inside the gates, focus firing, can control a huge portion of the map due to their turret like insta PPFLD chain firing ERPPCs while the rest of the team pushes right, left or center. So even in that case, the range advantage goes to the IS.

Any other "range" advantage is negated by the maps themselves. So any argument about Clans having a range advantage is moot - if not naive.

And when it comes to closer ranges, IS mechs with their quirks, PPFLD ACs, shorter duration and cooler lasers and the invulnerable lights are more than a match for Clans. The only reason IS is not stomping Clans at medium to brawling ranges is the Clan XL engine and higher average maneuverability of the heavier Clan mechs - a balance that is weirdly quite spot-on.

When was the last time you played CW?
Last I checked, it takes more than a minute or 2 for the gates to open. Unless a light zerg is being done.

Also, the range advantage isn't just from the maps. Understand that clan weapons have LONGER ranges.

As for IS winning close range. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO WIN SHORT RANGE.

Clans win long range, IS win short range. That has been the design philosophy for the two factions since the clans popped up. Where have you been all this time?

As for high mounted hardpoints. Those are more relevant in regular matches, than in CW. Where the maps are open plains pretty much.

[Demuder]

IraqiWalker, on 21 January 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

When was the last time you played CW?
Last I checked, it takes more than a minute or 2 for the gates to open. Unless a light zerg is being done.

Also, the range advantage isn't just from the maps. Understand that clan weapons have LONGER ranges.

As for IS winning close range. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO WIN SHORT RANGE.

Clans win long range, IS win short range. That has been the design philosophy for the two factions since the clans popped up. Where have you been all this time?

As for high mounted hardpoints. Those are more relevant in regular matches, than in CW. Where the maps are open plains pretty much.

I play CW daily, usually solo on weekdays, on a unit group on weekends.

If it takes you more than 1 or 2 minutes to open the gates, the problem is in the way your team plays, not the weapons the enemy team uses. It's simple enough. I will give you this though, usually pug players are stupidly trying to snipe the defenders from the ridge instead of opening the gates and rushing in. If it's IS attacking, that used to negate their foremost advantage, short range brawling. Thus, the TDR was buffed to a silly level, to accommodate IS playing to their weaknesses instead of their strengths.

Now of course, we have the reverse problem, where idiotic Clan players are trying to snipe the TDRs from the ridge inside the gates and thus wasting armor against the TDRs. That's on Boreal though, the Sulfur map is a lot more well made imho and such idiotic play is not promoted by the map itself. You still see people trying to peek-a-boo once the gates are opened though, even on that one.

I see you have a skewed perception of balance. Having one faction better at long while the other better at short range is not balance imho, it's just lazy. Even if your view was valid, the Clans' advantage long range was eliminated by the non-stop, dakka-like PPFLD the TDR is. So... in your view, IS are certainly overpowered atm, right ?

High mounted hardpoints are extremely important in CW matches. I don't see any open plains except the landing area of the attackers. Maybe the approach to beta and gamma gate in Sulfur map, but even those are littered with "stalagmite" structures. Would you be so kind to point out where the open plains are in CW maps ?

[dervishx5]

Demuder, on 22 January 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

Would you be so kind to point out where the open plains are in CW maps ?

In the out of bounds area.

[IraqiWalker]

Demuder, on 22 January 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

I play CW daily, usually solo on weekdays, on a unit group on weekends.

If it takes you more than 1 or 2 minutes to open the gates, the problem is in the way your team plays, not the weapons the enemy team uses. It's simple enough. I will give you this though, usually pug players are stupidly trying to snipe the defenders from the ridge instead of opening the gates and rushing in. If it's IS attacking, that used to negate their foremost advantage, short range brawling. Thus, the TDR was buffed to a silly level, to accommodate IS playing to their weaknesses instead of their strengths.

Now of course, we have the reverse problem, where idiotic Clan players are trying to snipe the TDRs from the ridge inside the gates and thus wasting armor against the TDRs. That's on Boreal though, the Sulfur map is a lot more well made imho and such idiotic play is not promoted by the map itself. You still see people trying to peek-a-boo once the gates are opened though, even on that one.

I see you have a skewed perception of balance. Having one faction better at long while the other better at short range is not balance imho, it's just lazy. Even if your view was valid, the Clans' advantage long range was eliminated by the non-stop, dakka-like PPFLD the TDR is. So... in your view, IS are certainly overpowered atm, right ?

Absolutely agree with most of this. Including that the TDR is OP right now (I personally think the quirks need to be toned down to somewhere between 30% to 40%)

Demuder, on 22 January 2015 - 12:22 AM, said:

High mounted hardpoints are extremely important in CW matches. I don't see any open plains except the landing area of the attackers. Maybe the approach to beta and gamma gate in Sulfur map, but even those are littered with "stalagmite" structures. Would you be so kind to point out where the open plains are in CW maps ?

Most of Boreal, except the two edge roads, which are just funnels that turn a charge into a turkey shoot, and if you are fighting there, high mounts aren't as important unless you are defending and ridge peaking on the mechs charging through there.

As for Sulfur. Yes, I agree it's better made (the action happens on the entire map, instead of the two outermost routes like in Boreal) map, but I can easily park by (if I'm defending), Gen1, and have nearly 700 meters of clear lines to fire at the attacking clans, with only the hill in the middle as an obstruction. Not to mention that the inside of the base is mostly open space. There are very few obstructions to LOS in both maps. Yes, it's no Alpine peaks, but it's not Canyon Network, or TT either.