23 replies to this topic

[Krasnovian]

The light rush has become so common that other tactics have not only fallen from favor but are slowly ceasing to exist.

There have been many proposed solutions, limiting numbers of drops by planet, limiting classes in a drop deck, adding turrets, and additional generators have already been added.

There is a simple solution to this problem that I have not seen before; either remove the indication of attack or defense from the drop lobbies, or not allow deck changing once the lobby has formed.

This allows anyone to bring anything to any fight still, but will force teams to adapt tactics to suit offensive or defensive operations rather than specializing drop decks. It would also move teams away from stacking a single meta build as that would make them much less flexible.

[Mark of Caine]

There are already a couple of established ways to deal with IS light zerg rushes. Although never perfect, many Mariks have learned to be able to stop the rush with only 1 generator down. Sometimes, rarely but it happens, all three generators took some damage, but they are still intact. And true enough, there are times where the enemy team successfully takes down all three. It happens.

It all comes down to your company knowing what to drop in and where to position yourselves when the light zerg rush comes over the gates. Overextending yourself early on is often the cause of the success of light zerg rushes. I will admit, it is far easier to deal with the rush on Boreal Vault than Sulfurous Rift. The latter map is definitely harder to defend than the former, so I will grant you that if that was your implication.

As for meta builds, well I only consider a build meta when you have 12 players all dropping in the same mech with the same build. I'll agree with you that this sort of cheesy behaviour leaves a sour taste in my mouth, but regardless of my opinions and feelings, if a unit really wants to cheese it to the extreme, it is their choice, whether we like it or not. Some players like diversity and put imagination and thought into their builds, others lemming their way to the flavour of the month. But to each their own.

If PGI deems there is an imbalance with a certain mech, they will deal with it. For now, learn new ways to counter the cheese. This can lead to some weird, creative thinking.

[Davers]

Krasnovian, on 10 January 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

The light rush has become so common that other tactics have not only fallen from favor but are slowly ceasing to exist.

There have been many proposed solutions, limiting numbers of drops by planet, limiting classes in a drop deck, adding turrets, and additional generators have already been added.

There is a simple solution to this problem that I have not seen before; either remove the indication of attack or defense from the drop lobbies, or not allow deck changing once the lobby has formed.

This allows anyone to bring anything to any fight still, but will force teams to adapt tactics to suit offensive or defensive operations rather than specializing drop decks. It would also move teams away from stacking a single meta build as that would make them much less flexible.

Whenever you have objective style game modes you will see light mechs. Capture the Flag? Escort missions? Light mechs will rock in all of them. When are light mechs bad? Stand and fight missions. So we just need a mix of mission types to sort it all out.

[MechaBattler]

The unit I'm in has many opinions on how to counter light rushes. From what I've observed. Defense in Depth seems the most logical counter. What led to failures against light rushes is too many of our mechs being up front and the rest mid field. On the occasions where we succeeded against even 2 light rushes. It was because we had mechs in the front, mid field, and at the perimeter of the base. The faster the unit, the closer to the front, the slowest at base.

At one point they got our gens down. And the omega was not only exposed but half HP. I ejected and deployed in my banshee right next to the Omega. The light rush went directly at the omega, so I was in keen position, but more importantly they were damaged by the time they reach me. The first light to crest into sight lost it's leg with my first shot. Same with the second. And then all hell broke loose. But fortunately we did a good job of mopping them up and even dropped arty on ourselves to bring them down.

This was against units too. Granted we're hardly the best unit and neither were they. So results will vary.

Edited by MechaBattler, 10 January 2015 - 01:24 PM.

[Krasnovian]

I'm not trying to say that the light rush is OP or particularly difficult to counter it seems that it is the tactic is simply the easiest way to win and the game does not encourage fighting.

Not letting players set drops specifically for attack or defense would promote more multipurpose builds and more variation in mech types and tactics.

[AztecD]

zerg rush is effective because the armor was doubled a while back, no way a firestarter should eat 2 30+ alphas and still be functional

given that, you need to allow the maps to be more open and big, dont limit the defenders to a set area that they cannot move away from.

old MW4 maps where huge, but yet where effective, MWO maps are tiny but comparison and the PA assult is small by comparison.

Have the base have turrets and generators and such, but open the base to allow back and forth, i can asure you that no zerg rush will be done as easy if you are hitting them as they come out of their staging area not starting to receive fire about 2/3rd in

Edited by AztecD, 10 January 2015 - 01:53 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

last fight I was in there was no rush apart from a desperate attempt in the last wave, with one generator left


was actually a good match with none of the most commonly seen whine on these boards

[Monkey Lover]

Clan side I see 6x6ssrm take care of.this problem. IS side needs streaks buffed at least back to where they used to be. If they put streaks back you could counter with streak hawks, a1 Griffin or kt18.

[ice trey]

Clanners seem to do a good job defending against the light rush, as a lot of them are using Stormcrows with lots of Streak launchers. IS players tend to not bring streaks to the table very often while on the defensive, because they have the range-game in mind.

I get what the min-maxing players are going for, but myself, I like to keep my options a little open with some sort of back-up weapons.

Consider the Dragon 1N for example, you can exploit the AC5 quirks, but also pack two missile launchers and a laser mount or two. Backing it up with a couple of streak racks, a little ammo, BAP, and whatever's left to lasers and/or AMS can make for a decent light-hunter if they do a push, no matter your ping. For a guy like myself, where my ping floats somewhere between "Atrocious" and "Holy crap are you using dial-up", having streaks to deal with lights is almost a must-have.

[Mystere]

Monkey Lover, on 10 January 2015 - 02:10 PM, said:

Clan side I see 6x6ssrm take care of.this problem. IS side needs streaks buffed at least back to where they used to be. If they put streaks back you could counter with streak hawks, a1 Griffin or kt18.

Can't the IS field Mechs with 4-6 SRM6s? (I am asking because I haven't run IS for a while )

They seem to work for me on the Clan side when taking out IS lights -- although I also like the LB20-X.

[Monkey Lover]

Mystere, on 10 January 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Can't the IS field Mechs with 4-6 SRM6s? (I am asking because I haven't run IS for a while )

They seem to work for me on the Clan side when taking out IS lights -- although I also like the LB20-X.

IS only has ssrm2 best you can hope for is. 6xssrm2 with an a1 or kt18. It takes around 4 alphas to leg a light with this setup. It's much to slow. I seen a few people try to.bring these I just run around them. A srm boating medium can blow the legs off a light with one hit if it registers.

[Moarginplz]

I think last night our unit lost one game to a double light rush. We didn't get mad about it, or call anybody cheaters,or cheesy, or whatever. We took a few minutes, and everybody adjusted their defense drop decks to account for the fact that we might run into 12 lights at a time. After that, light rushes ended in a flurry of AC fire, pulse lasers, and streaks, generally with at least 1 generator still up.

I think the problem that a lot of people have, is that they're not making the drop deck adjustments necessary to counter the tactic. If you're in a 12 man, there shouldn't be any problem getting a couple guys to run builds that specialize in pwning light mechs. If you're not in a 12 man, well pugs are gonna pug, and there's really no fixing that.

Edited by Moarginplz, 10 January 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[Mystere]

Monkey Lover, on 10 January 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

IS only has ssrm2 best you can hope for is. 6xssrm2 with an a1 or kt18. It takes around 4 alphas to leg a light with this setup. It's much to slow. I seen a few people try to.bring these I just run around them. A srm boating medium can blow the legs off a light with one hit if it registers.

I was actually referring to SRMs, not SSRMs.

But your last sentence seems to imply that the IS indeed can. So an A1 or KT18 armed with SRM6s can do the job as well.

Edited by Mystere, 10 January 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Mystere, on 10 January 2015 - 04:41 PM, said:

I was actually referring to SRMs, not SSRMs.

But your last sentence seems to imply that the IS indeed can. So an A1 or KT18 armed with SRM6s can do the job as well.

oh sorry I was talking about streaks on my first post I was think you were too haha. Yes a lot of IS mechs can run 4 srm6 up to 6xsrm6. I do find this good at taking out lights. It's about the best in my view but only on a fast medium. The only way I can get the srms to register on 150kph lights is to be behind them running in the same line. If not your just hoping it will hit like a dual gauss or ppc. I would still like to see IS streaks be useful again.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 10 January 2015 - 05:39 PM.

[AeusDeif]

If you want less light rushes you have to understand the 2 main reasons for their ubiquity:

1. Invasion mode is built for a precision strike via mechs. You have to get past defenders and destroy buildings.

2. Boreal especially makes any other tactic nearly unfeasible, unless the defending team has a marked skill/coordination disadvantage. It suffers from a major bottleneck.


so it follows that the way to reduce light rushes, is to put more entrances into bases like boreal, more invasion maps like sulfurous where heavier mechs can use diversions to get in, and more game modes in general. Or perhaps tweak invasion to give heavier mechs another way of winning. For instance, what if some artillery units were dropped in the DZ as well, and would bomb static enemy defenses and camping mechs? Siege mode anyone?

[Kuritaclan]

AeusDeif, on 10 January 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

If you want less light rushes you have to understand the 2 main reasons for their ubiquity:

1. Invasion mode is built for a precision strike via mechs. You have to get past defenders and destroy buildings.

2. Boreal especially makes any other tactic nearly unfeasible, unless the defending team has a marked skill/coordination disadvantage. It suffers from a major bottleneck.


so it follows that the way to reduce light rushes, is to put more entrances into bases like boreal, more invasion maps like sulfurous where heavier mechs can use diversions to get in, and more game modes in general. Or perhaps tweak invasion to give heavier mechs another way of winning. For instance, what if some artillery units were dropped in the DZ as well, and would bomb static enemy defenses and camping mechs? Siege mode anyone?

If you have more entrances it does not only favor slow mechs, it also put up lights even more in a good spot, since defenders have to split and a couple mechs cant kill a a big blow of lights, so those lights can overcome a little group even easier than a big group and devestate a base even faster before the rest of the defenders could react to them.

[Mystere]

AeusDeif, on 10 January 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

2. Boreal especially makes any other tactic nearly unfeasible, unless the defending team has a marked skill/coordination disadvantage. It suffers from a major bottleneck.

Actually, there is another tactic that works in both maps: Kill them all! Done that a few times.

[Willard Phule]

The funniest thing about the "light rush" is that it's primarily an IS tactic.....the Clan lights have neither the speed nor the ECM capability the IS lights do.

As for how to deal with them.....to each their own. Me, I always make sure to have some kind of countermeasure, normally CAP, and CSSRM4s to take them down. With the HSR as buggy as it has been, streaks are the sure way to knock them down.

But that's what it boils down to. If you're dropping in CW solo, ESPECIALLY as a Clanner, you run the risk of getting a lot of people that either don't understand how ECM works or decided they really didn't need to contribute to the group's ability to counter it......with the Clans, it normally means we've got a lot of people in Trial Omnis. It is what it is.

[Zongoose]

What the clanners can do though is a combined arms, light/medium/heavy/assault rush with everyone moving at ~80kph+. Not as fast but so much firepower and armour that it is hard to put down if they keep moving together.

[Ihasa]

Zongoose, on 11 January 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

What the clanners can do though is a combined arms, light/medium/heavy/assault rush with everyone moving at ~80kph+. Not as fast but so much firepower and armour that it is hard to put down if they keep moving together.

DING DING DING..... we have a winner