63 replies to this topic

[Karl Streiger]

including master perks and modules - or simple 4 modified Mechs?

[El Bandito]

Mudhutwarrior, on 13 January 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

Wondering if some of the math heads could figure out rewards base on new player average earnings which is less than a 100k o

How many matches based on earnings in solo would it take to field a fully equipped CW drop deck in IS and Clan?

I think that would be a good measure of the climb new players face.

New players on average probably earn about half that of experienced players, so around 50,000 C-Bills. Could be even lower than that but for the sake of simplification lets go with 50K. And let's also imagine that he blew all his Cadet bonus on his first mech and now have to do it the hard way.

To buy a decent Heavy mech that is also newbie friendly and already has optimum loadout--let's say Catapult-C1, he will need to spend 5,804,127 C-Bills. The mech alone will require 116 matches to purchase. WHAT. THE. ****.

Obviously, DHS is mandatory for the mech so that's 1,500,000 more C-Bills, which equals to 7,304,127 C-Bills, or 146 matches.

Endo-Steel upgrade will require 650,000 C-Bills, and the total will become 7,954,127, or 159 matches.

If you add Artemis for the LRM15s, then the price jumps to 9,224,367, or 184 matches.

If you wish to add XL 315 to your C1--which you should--the price bounds to 14,369,367 C-Bills, and that my friends, will equal to 287 matches for the newbie.

For just one mech. ONE. Sure you can sell the Std 260 engine back for few hundred thousand space bucks, but you will have to buy the XL first in order to do that.


For CW, you will at least need ATD and LRM cooldown modules, and those cost additional 7,000,000 together.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Karl Streiger, on 13 January 2015 - 12:43 AM, said:

- i tried to say this.

Ok, now I'm begining to understand your point. Just a few things to nit pick about, if you don't mind.

Karl Streiger, on 13 January 2015 - 12:43 AM, said:

Ok maybe to make it more clear:
in the lore the LBX is twice as expensive as the Standard Autocanon - because it is a two in one system - you have the standard autocannon - or you have the cluster shot. - one price two autocanons for one

The lore price for an LBX 10 is 400,000 C-Bills, while a UAC 10 costs 320,000. There is a difference in price, but it's not double.

Karl Streiger, on 13 January 2015 - 12:43 AM, said:

in mwo not only is the price doubled of tt - but the LBX is not two autocanons in one -its one - so the doubled price is a no go.
and the clan example is even worse.
You pay the double price for each mode.
All LBX (Clan and IS) and Clan Standard Autocanons have to reduced in cost by 50% - same for the XL engine reduce the costs (for some XL engines i got a complete Mech)

Yes, I agree that each of these cannons is twice it's TT cost, but TT had to factor in elements we don't deal with, such as Repair and Rearm, long time to install weapons (weeks, if not months sometimes), and the fact that not everyone had a shop to buy any part they wanted at the touch of a finger.

Karl Streiger, on 13 January 2015 - 12:43 AM, said:

Second - for every LBX or Clan Standard Autocannon - those players have to get a IS AC 10 (for ISLBX), Clan Standard for Clan LBX or Clan LBX for Clan Standard for free.

While I can understand how you arrived at that conclusion. Let's not forget that some people got regular ACs because they wanted regular ACs, and they exist in lore (For IS anyways). Though I don't think PGI would lose much by injecting a pair of UAC 10s into every qualifying player's account. Well, won't lose anything other than the crazy work hours it would take to document them.

[El Bandito]

IraqiWalker, on 13 January 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

The lore price for an LBX 10 is 400,000 C-Bills, while a UAC 10 costs 320,000. There is a difference in price, but it's not double.

He mentioned Standard AC10, which is 200,000 C-BIlls, which in turn is indeed 2 times less than LB10X.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Galenit]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

If you wish to add XL 315 to your C1--which you should--the price bounds to 14,369,367 C-Bills, and that my friends, will equal to 287 matches for the newbie.

If you are not new and make a match like yesterday were you get
152 matchpoints, 4 kills, 8 assists, 900+ damage, 180k cbills without premium and hero.
You have to play only 80 matches like that ...

Edited by Galenit, 13 January 2015 - 03:34 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2015 - 03:16 AM, said:

New players on average probably earn about half that of experienced players, so around 50,000 C-Bills. Could be even lower than that but for the sake of simplification lets go with 50K. And let's also imagine that he blew all his Cadet bonus on his first mech and now have to do it the hard way.

To buy a decent Heavy mech that is also newbie friendly and iconic--let's say Cataplut-C1, he will need to spend 5,804,127 C-Bills. The mech alone will require 116 matches to purchase. WHAT. THE. ****.

Obviously, DHS is mandatory for the mech so that's 1,500,000 more C-Bills, which equals to 7,304,127 C-Bills, or 146 matches.

If they're losing all the time. New players stop being new somewhere around the 100th drop, and also adequate participation in wins will net them on average over 60K C-Bills. If we math hammer it out, then we need to account for the few (about 5%) matches where the player is just on a supreme roll, and the many (about 50%) where their performance is average enough, and is only modified by losses and wins, then the 5% where they die doing less than 80 damage, followed the 20% where they are above average, and 20% where they are below average.

For a non-cadet player, the first 100 matches (after cadet, since those 25 shouldn't count, nor qualify for the earnings on account of bonuses, and not knowing which end of the gun to point at the enemy), from match 26 to match 126 would be listed as following:

5 matches where the player will earn between 130,000-230,000
20 matches where the player will earn between 65,000-130,000
50 matches where the player will earn between 50,000-65,000
20 matches where the player will earn between 40,000-50,000
5 matches where the player will earn between 30,000-40,000

Based on that they would be making around

180K average for the top 5 = 900K
95K average for the 20 above average = 1.9M
60K average for the 50 average = 3M
45K for the 20 below = 900K
35K for the 5 worst = 175K

Total average = 6.875 Million C-Bills average for the first 100 matches. I went conservative on some of the earnings, so they actually could be making as high 9M+ for the first 100. Also, could anyone check for me how much you get for a zero damage, zero everything game with a win, and with a loss? That can have an impact of about 140K million swinging either way.

This was all done in a hurry, but that should give you a rough idea.

EDIT: changed 1.4Mil 140K in the swing on zero games. (Was thinking K, but put Million.)

El Bandito, on 13 January 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

He mentioned Standard AC10, which is 200,000 C-BIlls, which in turn is indeed 2 times less than LB10X.

My mistake. I stand corrected.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 13 January 2015 - 03:39 AM.

[El Bandito]

Galenit, on 13 January 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

If you are not new and make a match like yesterday were you get
152 matchpoints, 4 kills, 8 assists, 900+ damage, 180k cbills without premium and hero.
You have to play only 80 matches like that ...

Your comment is not on point, hence irrelevant--as we are talking about new player experience. Besides even players who had played the game for 2 years do not earn 180K every match without boosts. Not even you.

IraqiWalker, on 13 January 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

If they're losing all the time. New players stop being new somewhere around the 100th drop, and also adequate participation in wins will net them on average over 60K C-Bills. If we math hammer it out, then we need to account for the few (about 5%) matches where the player is just on a supreme roll, and the many (about 50%) where their performance is average enough, and is only modified by losses and wins, then the 5% where they die doing less than 80 damage, followed the 20% where they are above average, and 20% where they are below average.

For a non-cadet player, the first 100 matches (after cadet, since those 25 shouldn't count, nor qualify for the earnings on account of bonuses, and not knowing which end of the gun to point at the enemy), from match 26 to match 126 would be listed as following:

5 matches where the player will earn between 130,000-230,000

20 matches where the player will earn between 65,000-130,000

50 matches where the player will earn between 50,000-65,000

20 matches where the player will earn between 40,000-50,000

5 matches where the player will earn between 30,000-40,000

Based on that they would be making around

180K average for the top 5 = 900K

95K average for the 20 above average = 1.9M

60K average for the 50 average = 3M

45K for the 20 below = 900K

35K for the 5 worst = 175K

Total average = 6.875 Million C-Bills average for the first 100 matches. I went conservative on some of the earnings, so they actually could be making as high 9M+ for the first 100. Also, could anyone check for me how much you get for a zero damage, zero everything game with a win, and with a loss? That can have an impact of about 1.4 million swinging either way.

This was all done in a hurry, but that should give you a rough idea.

My mistake. I stand corrected.

That's why I specifically stated that we will imagine the newbie had already bought his first mech using his cadet bonus--thus he has to buy the C1 without any boost. Besides, newbies do lose all the time. My WLR in the first 2 months of 2012 was 0.25, or 1 win per 3 losses--and I have been playing MW games since 1997.

As for 0 damage, 0 point loss, I think the rewards is 25000K.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2015 - 03:45 AM.

[627]

Galenit, on 13 January 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

If you are not new and make a match like yesterday were you get
152 matchpoints, 4 kills, 8 assists, 900+ damage, 180k cbills without premium and hero.
You have to play only 80 matches like that ...

As a new player... in a mech that is far from tweaked...

What you need as a new player is a cbill farmer, that could be a LRM boat. Unfortunately you'll always need DHS for that so it get's expensive. The only good LRM boat that don't need an XL could be the hunchback J with its quirks.

Or you try to get on a catapult K2 and build a gauss kitty, so you don't need DHS. But those 2 gauss cannons make up for that...

[IraqiWalker]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

That's why I specifically stated that we will imagine the newbie had already bought his first mech using his cadet bonus--thus he has to buy the C1 without any boost.

I know, buddy, I just put that there for the record.

[El Bandito]

IraqiWalker, on 13 January 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

I know, buddy, I just put that there for the record.

Right, and you can be sure that I would have dumped this game if I joined it in current reward system, as a complete newbie. It was thanks to the game's beta phase in 2012 that I managed to farm huge amounts of C-Bills for all those Atlases and Stalkers I bought. Those mechs had made the later tweaked (nerfed, more like) rewards system bearable.

Not to mention, the current reward system HEAVILY focuses on actual contribution such as damage dealt, spotting, TAG/NARC, which means newbies earn waaaay less than 2 years ago. Back then all I had to do to get good amount of C-Bills was to splash my laser on to every mech I see and then die.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2015 - 03:59 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Grimmjow, on 11 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

I bought my first light today after being strictly heavy/medium for quite a while. I though hey, with the sale one I can grab a light and switch it up a little for really cheap. Then I got a nasty little surprise, lights mechs need a big old honking xl engine to be remotely viable.

In order to get my dinky little fire-starter up to a point where I can even actually play it I'd have to spend more than I would to buy a brand new ASSAULT MECH!

Seriously how are engines so expensive?!? This is absurd.

Peace out.

See.. XL or "Extra Light Fusion" engines, are pretty new technology.

If you notice the price dispairty between Standard engines, and XL, well it's pretty huge, And that's actually thanks to Lore.

As of 3050 [where we're at in MWO's Timeline in the battletech universe] XL engines are still pretty new technology, devloped AGAIN after the discovery of the Helm Memory Core by the Grey Death Legion in 3028, the technology that originally allowed for XL engines was lost during the succession wars. Once the specs were found in the Helm Memory Core, technicians began construction pretty much as soon as possible, and attempted to replicate the old design. They finally pulled it off.

The problem, is that the Inner Sphere's technology base isn't really that strong, and the materials to build these engines don't come cheap.

So, to answer your question OP... it's because of the lore and the timeline. simple as that.

[Ashrahm]

You bought a Firestarter.
And Now..., you complain about the engine cost.

Clan mechs come with a XL, with-in the cost.
and you can not change it.

If i had the ability to change clan engines, i'd pay 10 even 20 mil to do it, (many would actually).

[Galenit]

El Bandito, on 13 January 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

Your comment is not on point, hence irrelevant--as we are talking about new player experience. Besides even players who had played the game for 2 years do not earn 180K every match without boosts. Not even you.

I was showing that the rewards are too small, even if you have a upgraded mech and know how to use it.
And no, i dont carry 1/3 of a win for every match, it shows even more how low the earnings are.

After seeing my girl giving up with her account for that reason and sometimes using it for me now,
i can clearly say, if i would start as a new player, if would look for another game after some days.

[IraqiWalker]

Galenit, on 14 January 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

I was showing that the rewards are too small, even if you have a upgraded mech and know how to use it.
And no, i dont carry 1/3 of a win for every match, it shows even more how low the earnings are.

After seeing my girl giving up with her account for that reason and sometimes using it for me now,
i can clearly say, if i would start as a new player, if would look for another game after some days.

That has moer to do with people not reading the patch notes and seeing HOW the rewards work. By simply sticking with your team, and your lance, you are passively wracking up C-Bills, and XP quickly. Focus firing rewards a lot, and so does flanking should you decide to do it (as a lance preferably for maximum lance in formation rewards). Popping a single UAV practically refunds it's cost with all of the XP and C-Bills you can get from detection, counter ECM, spotting assists, and flanking hit bonuses.

The rewards don't conform to the old mentality, which is where a lot of the difficulty in adapting to them comes from. The old system practically told you what rewards you were getting before the match started simply based on your tonnage. Assaults and heavies would always make the most, then mediums with decent earning, and lights usually get shafted with the least earning possible. Since the old system relied almost absolutely on damage rewards. The new system is more comprehensive, but the rewards values need a slight buff.

[Kdogg788]

FupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 06:33 AM, said:

The timeless classic lives on.

This is absolutely beautiful, but seriouslynow. They don't intend on someone playing for 2 months to have the stable of someone who has been on here since closed beta. The mechs and parts you buy to keep. Theoretically people want this to be for a long time and for the game to continue for a long lifespan, and to do so, you can't design a model where everything comes too easily or that there is no incentive to use real money. Not trying to white knight here but that's the reality of the f2p model.

-k

[Pjwned]

The expensive engines wouldn't be such a problem if you weren't forced to buy engines you don't need when buying stock mechs from the mech lab.

[IraqiWalker]

Pjwned, on 14 January 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

The expensive engines wouldn't be such a problem if you weren't forced to buy engines you don't need when buying stock mechs from the mech lab.

Plenty of the stock engines are actually very good and useful, and those that aren't you can sell easily. For example, the Orion is best used with it's stock STD 300. The Hunchie works rather well with it's stock STD 200. Also, without those engines stock, you can't drop in the mech.

[Deathlike]

IraqiWalker, on 14 January 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

Plenty of the stock engines are actually very good and useful, and those that aren't you can sell easily. For example, the Orion is best used with it's stock STD 300. The Hunchie works rather well with it's stock STD 200. Also, without those engines stock, you can't drop in the mech.

Most of them are not valuable. Sure, collecting the occasional Standard 300 or 300XL is a nice thing to carry around and reuse, but there's a LOT of other mechs that won't have reusable engines... particularly the ones that come with Lights (and I'm not factoring in the Champion/trial builds or heroes).

Edited by Deathlike, 14 January 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[Wolfgang2685]

Yknow, there's also the other end of the spectrum... where you spend a whopping 7 dollars on the game total to get mechbays, then win #1 spot in cataphracts in the last tourney to get free MC, end up filling most of your mechbays...

Then having nothing else to spend c-bills on.

That's about where i've started to get bored. I don't need new weapons for my IS or clan mechs, i bought one of each module (and sometimes 2), bought all the DHS and endo upgrades for all the mechs, mastered them all...

AND NOW THERE'S NOTHING LEFT TO DO. NOTHING TO SPEND CBILLS ON. IT SUCKS AT THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN TOO GUYS.

[IraqiWalker]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Most of them are not valuable. Sure, collecting the occasional Standard 300 or 300XL is a nice thing to carry around and reuse, but there's a LOT of other mechs that won't have reusable engines... particularly the ones that come with Lights (and I'm not factoring in the Champion/trial builds or heroes).

Me neither. The champions and heroes generally come with good engines. I'm only talking about standard mechs we have.