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The State Of The Ac2


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#1 Tahribator

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:03 AM

The text below is the relevant part of the article I wrote for my website. I wanted it to post here to get some discussion going.


AC2 — The forgotten ballistic weapon

I remember the times when just a single AC2 was a viable choice for a 'Mech. It had great DPS and suppression power. I even remember an AC2+2xML+3xSRM4 Centurion-A being one of my favorites back then. Its sheer DPS, speed and range was offset by its heat generation and the ridiculous face-time needed to apply damage. It was a true support weapon with serious drawbacks and it has never been truly popular because of this.

When a single weapon is decent, people tend to boat them to reach ridiculous levels of "decency" in MWO and the AC2 was no exception to this. There were some ridiculous Jager builds roaming in the battlefields back in 2013 including 4-6 AC2's macroed to fire in succession. Even though they shook your cockpit a lot and sounded terrifying, what these macros achieved was a perfect demonstration of "Its bark is worse than its bite" because they spread the damage all over your 'Mech. Still the total DPS was terrifying and AC2s were given ghost heat before the game launched, essentially eliminating these boats.

Though, there was an issue of chaining AC2's since their cooldown was 0.5 and the ghost heat triggered if you fired more than two AC2 bullets every 0.5 seconds. So the cooldown was bumped to 0.52 and everybody lived happily after that . . . well, no.

I won't list every nerf here, but I'll just do a "before and after" comparison for you to see.

Posted Image

As you can see, the most striking difference is the change of ROF and the sheer DPS loss because of it. I agree that previous DPS was maybe too much. But, if you look past spreadsheets and numbers, and consider the heat generation and the face-time needed, then you realize it was actually balanced. It gave low-tonnage ballistic 'Mechs like the Centurion and the Cicada the "cheap" firepower to duke it out with bigger 'Mechs.

The AC2 we have right now is just a ghost of its former self. It lost 28% of its DPS. Now you have to stare at your target 28% longer to apply the same damage and pray that some of those 2 damage bullets land at the same spot. Let me tell you, it's pretty much impossible. The fire rate is also very annoying. It's in a place between "This is long, maybe I should twist after shooting" and "I better stare to put these shots in the same place".

The result is irrelevance in any situation. Its damage is too low to be an effective sniper weapon, while its ROF is too low for it to be a true DPS/suppression weapon. For most people, the AC2 doesn't even exist anymore. Ask yourself, what was the last time you put one of these in your builds?

Why did PGI do this? Why did the AC2 have to suffer? There are some theories about this:
  • AC2's could be used to shake cockpits and blind opponents by macro-fire, so they had to be nerfed. This is one of the most common responses out there.
  • Since C-UAC2 is identical to AC2 (for some reason) except bullet numbers and double-tapping, it had to be nerfed to avoid an overpowered C-UAC2.
  • The introduction of quirks forced PGI's hand to further increase AC2 cooldown to avoid the quirked cooldown dropping below 0.5s, thereby triggering the ghost heat. For example the Grid Iron has a general ballistic cooldown quirk of 25%, bringing the AC2 cooldown to 0.54 seconds. It's barely over the 0.5s ghost heat limit.
The first argument can be refuted by the existence of C-AC2's (and C-AC5's). If you want to perma-blind someone, you just need two of these and you are spewing bullets non-stop. Heck, a Dire with 6xC-AC2 and 4xC-AC5 is a common sight and they truly blind you if you insist on staring at them. The second argument is decent, but I think the real reason lies in the third one.


It's a legitimate concern for a developer too since the ghost heat mechanic is only programmed to check how many times a weapon has been fired inside a 0.5s period. I'm pretty sure their main concern was curbing the rampant PPC boats at that time and they had put only a little thought into how it was going to affect the AC2 in the future. When they needed to introduce quirks, the AC2 suddenly became problematic. Instead of altering/improving the Ghost Heat mechanism or taking other measures, they chose to go the easy way of reducing the ROF and being done with it. This isn't right.

I also think there's a problem with build varieties with lower tonnage mediums and lights stemming from these "forgotten weapons". The single AC2 should be viable so that we can spice up the build variety for these 'Mechs.


"Ok, something has to be done. But what?"

Obviously there are more than one approaches to this. These are my ideas, but as long as we're increasing the effectiveness of the AC2 then we're on a good track. Before we move on, we need to keep three things in mind:
  • Because of the quirks, we can't buff the ROF anymore.
  • The Ghost Heat has to stay to limit ridiculous/abusive builds.
  • We still need to increase DPS somehow (preferably over 3.5 again) or make the weapon more attractive in another way.
and here are possible solutions:
  • Increase the damage per bullet. It's an easy but ugly solution, and it will piss off BT purists and confuse newcomers (as in "Why is this weapon named AC2 if it's not doing 2 damage?!").
  • Change/rework the ghost heat implementation. For example give each weapon system different GH trigger timers. If they could reduce the trigger to something like 0.4 for the AC2, we could have the old AC2 ROF without changing the current quirks.
  • Keep the current stats, but drastically reduce the AC2 tonnage. Make it more desirable by making it more affordable. Something like 4 tons instead of 6. This would pave the way to true ballistic lights and would actually benefit obscure 'Mechs like CDA-3C, VND-1X, RVN-4X and such. Leave C-UAC2 tonnage as it is (this will probably piss off some people).
These are my ideas from the top of my head. Feel free to add your own ideas. To be honest, I prefer the third one. Not only it's the easiest and least complicated solution, it also benefits lower tonnage and non-laser 'Mechs the most. They really need it.



So, what do we do?

PGI just needs to squeeze this topic into one of their meetings and come up with a plausible solution. We have a great deal of weaponry still waiting to find their place in this game. They're either not aware of it, or either they think they have more important things to work on. Nevertheless, you can make a difference by voicing your opinion on Twitter and in the upcoming Town Hall event with Russ Bullock.

#2 Karl Streiger

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:13 AM

interesting thoughts.

and considering the damage - reason i did start to call the AC 2 - LAC.
Because we don't call the Large Laser, Laser8.
So those purists need to rage about the Laser 9 - but they don't.

personally i would like to see the LAC - to have slightly more damage - for its former range (3x) - but cut the rate of fire - so yes its no longer the suppressing weapon - but a light "sniper" weapon.

Say - 3 damage per shot - 1 second cool down - because of more range 1.1 - 1.3 second cool down

Edited by Karl Streiger, 12 January 2015 - 08:15 AM.


#3 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:28 AM

View PostTahribator, on 12 January 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:


So, what do we do?

PGI just needs to squeeze this topic into one of their meetings and come up with a plausible solution. We have a great deal of weaponry still waiting to find their place in this game. They're either not aware of it, or either they think they have more important things to work on. Nevertheless, you can make a difference by voicing your opinion on Twitter and in the upcoming Town Hall event with Russ Bullock.

changing the tonnage would piss people off worse than the damage, and also break a lot of stock builds, which while roundly ignored, are the bare bones the game and mechlab are built upon. Not gonna happen.

Return the extreme range bracket to the ac2. In various formats they are supposed to pretty much outrang everything. Remove ALL screenshake, etc from them, if any still exists. increasing damage to say 2.5 per shot should be fine, IMO.

After all, then when the purist or noob complains "but it says AC2!!!!", on can simply replay that "AC2.5 sounded unwieldy".

But why focus just on the ac2? When do our poor flamers get addressed?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 12 January 2015 - 08:29 AM.


#4 PurpleNinja

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:31 AM

All this post is about AC2?

#5 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:31 AM

AC-2 needs the mechanic that applies massive ghost heat to stagger firing, GONE.

AC-2 needs to maintain its ghost heat cap at 3 synced firing as its limit, thats fine.

Bump up the max range to pre-nerf stats, and leave ROF where it is.

#6 Dino Might

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:34 AM

I would really like the AC2 improved just so my Pirate's Bane can mount one again and become semi-viable. It will never be meta-worthy, but as far as looks go, I think it's gorgeous, and it's really fun to zoom around with a long range woodpecker of a gun while under ECM. If the damage or ROF were increased, it would actually be possible to kill a mech with the proper positioning (right behind Big Al, staring at that Atlass) before the pilot noticed what was going on.

#7 Agent 0 Fortune

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:35 AM

And I thought all the changes to AC2's was based on weight. It always felt odd that a 6ton had the same DPS as a 12 ton weapon (and significantly out performed that 8 & 9 ton ACs).

#8 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:46 AM

View PostAgent 0 Fortune, on 12 January 2015 - 08:35 AM, said:

And I thought all the changes to AC2's was based on weight. It always felt odd that a 6ton had the same DPS as a 12 ton weapon (and significantly out performed that 8 & 9 ton ACs).

mostly. Which is why I think it needs it's range back. The problem becomes DP=S vs facetime vs weight and heat for the ac2 currently. But if it was able to sit back as far as it SHOULD (comparatively) then the face time would not be an issue.

Quad ac2 should never be some chaingun ripsaw for running in and killing crap like it was for a bit. But a viable light, long range support weapon. Yet the Gauss outranges it...despite the ac2 supposed to being a longer range gun than the gauss.


I might even say remove GH entirely from it, if it's RoF was a little lower. It's supposed to be effective at range, not outperforming heavier weapons up close. Remove it's chaingun ability, and enhance it's intended role, light sniping. Better range, projectile speed and less damage fall off, for lower DPS/RoF.

#9 Escef

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 08:56 AM

I run 3xAC2 on the BLR-1D. The sustained DPS from JUST the AC2s is higher than that of a GaussJager.

Comparing AC2s or AC5s singly to AC20s or Gauss is almost always a losing proposition for the lighter ballistic. However, when 3xAC2 and ammo is 24 or 25 tons and gets better DPS than 2x Gauss at 34 to 36 tons, I'd say the heat penalty is ok for the tonnage discount. Yes, one can easily argue that the PPFLD of the Gauss is more valuable, but the AC2 is still a serviceable suppression fire weapon (and if you pack 2 or 3 it's quite capable of drilling a big hole in a careless opponent).

#10 Malckovich

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:14 AM

The one thing that makes the AC2 such an odd duck is the ton/slot ratio. Most weapons in the game sit around a ratio of 2 tons per slot. AC2 is 6, making it the least efficient weapon to build. This weapon would be usable it it took 2 slots at 4 tons.

#11 Escef

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:18 AM

View PostMalckovich, on 12 January 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The one thing that makes the AC2 such an odd duck is the ton/slot ratio. Most weapons in the game sit around a ratio of 2 tons per slot. AC2 is 6, making it the least efficient weapon to build. This weapon would be usable it it took 2 slots at 4 tons.

That's just not going to happen, the AC2 has been 6 tons and 1 crit since the 80s. PGI isn't likely to change tonnage or crit slots for items, and I'd be willing to bet a paycheck on it.

#12 MauttyKoray

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:18 AM

View PostTahribator, on 12 January 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

So, what do we do?

PGI just needs to squeeze this topic into one of their meetings and come up with a plausible solution. We have a great deal of weaponry still waiting to find their place in this game. They're either not aware of it, or either they think they have more important things to work on. Nevertheless, you can make a difference by voicing your opinion on Twitter and in the upcoming Town Hall event with Russ Bullock.

If they want to give us the AC/2 cooldown module I would be 100% content with the current state of the weapon. It would make up for the reduced cooldown and the current Ghost Heat limit of 4 will keep it from being super boated by the larger mechs still, however my little mechs with AC/2s need some love as they have no use currently.

Cooldown Module 5 - 12% reduction

Old AC/2 Cooldown - 0.52s (3.85 dps)
Current AC/2 Cooldown - 0.72s (2.78 dps)
Module 5 Cooldown - 0.63s (3.17 dps)

Its not quite back to the old AC/2, but its a significant boost to the now useless and unused weapon that could bring it back into play. It also avoids the Ghost Heat refire rate still and shouldn't have the same issues as the old fire rate with hitreg being still over 0.6s.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 12 January 2015 - 09:27 AM.


#13 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 09:34 AM

View PostEscef, on 12 January 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

That's just not going to happen, the AC2 has been 6 tons and 1 crit since the 80s. PGI isn't likely to change tonnage or crit slots for items, and I'd be willing to bet a paycheck on it.

it's not even because "how it was".

It's how it is. The basis for every mech in the mechlab is still the stock design. Changing those things breaks the back of those designs and cause other issues. Thus, it is not going to happen.

#14 DONTOR

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:13 AM

AC2s were my absolute favorite weapon before they wrongly nerfed the range. It has a very strange niche now as a brawling DPS support weapon I have made it work wonders, as have others, but I REALLY miss the longer range it used to have more than anything.

#15 FupDup

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:19 AM

If we wanted to make the AC/2 into a "Pocket Sniper Rifle," I have an idea for that...

Damage: 4
Heat: 1
Cooldown: 2.0s (2.0 DPS)
Ammo: 38 (152 Damage per ton)
Velocity: Maybe nudge it up a bit?
Range: Meh

Basically, it would become much more frontloaded damage but lower DPS, and would somewhat emphasize long-range peekwars over being an impotent fire suppression hose. In case anyone asks, the AC/5 would still have 25% more frontloaded damage and 50% higher DPS, so it keeps its own role as well.

The big issue to overcome is that people would say "Bb-b-b-but Fuddy Duddy, it's got a number 2 in its name, that means it HAS to do 2 damage brah!" That, and convincing Paul to care about the gun...

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2015 - 10:21 AM.


#16 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:20 AM

View PostFupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

If we wanted to make the AC/2 into a "Pocket Sniper Rifle," I have an idea for that...

Damage: 4
Heat: 1
Cooldown: 2.0s (2.0 DPS)
Ammo: 38 (152 Damage per ton)
Velocity: Maybe nudge it up a bit?
Range: Meh

Basically, it would become much more frontloaded damage but lower DPS, and would somewhat emphasize long-range peekwars over being an impotent fire suppression hose. In case anyone asks, the AC/5 would still have 25% more frontloaded damage and 50% higher DPS, so it keeps it own role as well.

The big issue to overcome is that people would say "Bb-b-b-but Fuddy Duddy, it's got a number 2 in its name, that means it HAS to do 2 damage brah!" That, and convincing Paul to care about the gun...

Tone the damage a skosh, give it the longest range, with guys like projectile drop, speed.

#17 Greenjulius

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:25 AM

If you have 4 or less AC2s, ghost heat should be impossible. Currently it's easy to trigger it with just 2 AC2s. That's pathetic, heavy handed, and needs to go away. Until then, the only reason for the AC2 is to be the 3rd gun on my SHD-2H. It provides a little long range harassing fire and screen shake in between the AC5 shots.

It's sad to see a weapon ruined by a bad nerf.

#18 FupDup

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:26 AM

View PostGreenjulius, on 12 January 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

If you have 4 or less AC2s, ghost heat should be impossible. Currently it's easy to trigger it with just 2 AC2s. That's pathetic, heavy handed, and needs to go away. Until then, the only reason for the AC2 is to be the 3rd gun on my SHD-2H. It provides a little long range harassing fire and screen shake in between the AC5 shots.

It's sad to see a weapon ruined by a bad nerf.

I still stand by my belief that if the Mythical 6 AC/2 Jagertroll™ was really such an "issue" in the first place, they should've just cut down the impulse on the AC/2 shell to make it less effective at cockpit-earthquake shaking (which was the original "problem" with it).

But instead, they just made it not do much damage and also heat up the user exponentially.

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2015 - 10:28 AM.


#19 Escef

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:33 AM

View PostFupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

If we wanted to make the AC/2 into a "Pocket Sniper Rifle," I have an idea for that...

Damage: 4
Heat: 1
Cooldown: 2.0s (2.0 DPS)
Ammo: 38 (152 Damage per ton)
Velocity: Maybe nudge it up a bit?
Range: Meh

Basically, it would become much more frontloaded damage but lower DPS, and would somewhat emphasize long-range peekwars over being an impotent fire suppression hose. In case anyone asks, the AC/5 would still have 25% more frontloaded damage and 50% higher DPS, so it keeps its own role as well.

The big issue to overcome is that people would say "Bb-b-b-but Fuddy Duddy, it's got a number 2 in its name, that means it HAS to do 2 damage brah!" That, and convincing Paul to care about the gun...

My issue with this idea is that the AC5 is no longer worth the bump in tonnage and crits. Mechs with twin AC5 will drop to these new AC2s and free up 4 tons for heat sinks/armor/bigger energy weapons/bigger engine/CuisineArt upgrade, etc.

#20 FupDup

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 10:41 AM

View PostEscef, on 12 January 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

My issue with this idea is that the AC5 is no longer worth the bump in tonnage and crits. Mechs with twin AC5 will drop to these new AC2s and free up 4 tons for heat sinks/armor/bigger energy weapons/bigger engine/CuisineArt upgrade, etc.

Assuming my idea went into the game, the AC/5 would provide the following benefits/drawbacks compared to the "Pocket Sniper Rifle" AC/2.

Pros:
25% more frontloaded damage (5 vs 4)
50% more DPS (3.01 vs 2.0)
No Posted Image heat (although the slower RoF would probably take care of that for the "Pocket Sniper Rifle" as well...)

Cons:
Lower range (620m optimal vs 720m optimal)
33% more tonnage (8 vs 6)
300% more critical slots (4 vs 1) [Looks like a bigger deal that it is]


For the cons, the critical slots thing looks more serve than it really is because 4 slots isn't "that" big of a deal, while the AC/2 was curiously made super tiny at just 1 slot (especially compared to the somehow bulkier Clan UAC/2 and LB 2-X).


If we absolutely had to, something like 3.5 damage with 1.75s cooldown (still 2.0 DPS) might be workable. Ammo per ton adjusted accordingly to 42. I'm just trying to make the gun actually threatening at long range, because a gun can only be good for long range combat if it does more than just tickle...

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2015 - 10:41 AM.






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