85 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

FupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

That also means we'd have an excuse for AC/2 cooldown mods and better quirks.

No one really gives a **** that I posted this information do they? As long as no mech gets an AC/2 specific Cooldown quirk, and instead just get the general Ballistic one (as it seems any mech with a weapon specific quirk will be half aimed at the weapon and half at the weapon's category every time) adding in the AC/2 cooldown module will get us relatively close to the old cooldown without it causing issues that the old fire rate was having.

Quote

Cooldown Module 5 - 12% reduction

Old AC/2 Cooldown - 0.52s (3.85 dps)
Current AC/2 Cooldown - 0.72s (2.78 dps)
Module 5 Cooldown - 0.63s (3.17 dps)

So I'm not sure if the Quirk/Module stacks or is sequential (12% of base, then 12% of that), so assuming either:

Sequential (0.63 * 0.88) - 0.55s (3.63 dps)
Stacking (0.72 * 0.76) - 0.54s (3.70 dps)

Coupled with reducing the shake an AC 2 causes so that 3 AC/2 equal out to about an AC/5 or just slightly more than it will bring the AC/2 back into use as a long range fast firing ballistic suppressor.

In fact, let's change this as the quirk value I used wasn't exactly...normal.

I see values in increments of 2.5% being used, so let's try out both 10% and 12.5%, with the addition of the 12% module again. Again I don't know whether these stacks or are factored separately from the Cooldown module so I'll do it both ways.

Current AC/2 Cooldown - 0.72s (2.78 dps)

10%
Sequential (0.63s * 0.9) - 0.56s (3.57 dps)
Stacking (0.72s * 0.78) - 0.56s (3.57 dps)

12.5%
Sequential (0.63s * 0.875) - 0.55s (3.63 dps)
Stacking (0.72s * 0.755) - 0.54s (3.70 dps)

As the numbers show a 10-12.5% quirk for ballistic (of AC/2 without ballistic general quirk) allow the AC2 to return near its original firing rate without causing the problem the old AC2 cooldown would have had with the module. So yes, GIVE US THE AC/2 MODULE!

Edited by MauttyKoray, 12 January 2015 - 01:25 PM.

[Tombstoner]

FupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Being able to do damage 9001 meters away isn't sufficient for a gun to be good. You have to be able to actually inflict significant damage from that far to be good.

The ac-2 with extreme range capability in the hands of a mobile light mech could attack your rear armor out side your ability to counter attack. and be a danger cause you have what 8 point of rear armor.... come on be honest....

1 point @ 9km with a cool down of .6 is a threat....

[FupDup]

MauttyKoray, on 12 January 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

No one really gives a **** that I posted this information do they? As long as no mech gets an AC/2 specific Cooldown quirk, and instead just get the general Ballistic one (as it seems any mech with a weapon specific quirk will be half aimed at the weapon and half at the weapon's category every time) adding in the AC/2 cooldown module will get us relatively close to the old cooldown without it causing issues that the old fire rate was having.

Coupled with reducing the shake an AC 2 causes so that 3 AC/2 equal out to about an AC/5 or just slightly more than it will bring the AC/2 back into use as a long range fast firing ballistic suppressor.

I've done similar maths in the past, although there's a rumor about a bug with weapon syncing. Supposedly, firing some guns simultaneously doesn't always work "truly" at the same time, "desyncing" a little bit and having a tiny gap between each individual gun.

Whether that's true or false, what matters is that PGI is using heat as their primary/only reason for not giving us better AC/2 quirks and cooldown modules. Removing the AC/2 from heat would mean that they'd no longer have an excuse...



PS: The full story goes like this...

The true "old" firing rate was 0.5 seconds, not 0.52. Paul probably got trolled by a 6 AC/2 Jager once, so he then added the AC/2 to heat. Afterwards, they slightly nerfed the cooldown to 0.51s and then 0.52s in order to make it no longer trip off heat when the Fast Fire skill was unlocked. Then, Paul randomly decided to do a "Normalizing" pass on the Autocannon family, resulting in lowering the AC/2's cooldown to approximately 0.67s, bringing it to just under 3.0 DPS.

Sometime later, for no apparent reason, the cooldown got nerfed again to 0.72s. Why? For the glory of Satan, of course. For a brief period the gun even had a 0.8s cooldown, which Paul probably did out of sheer hatred and spite of the weapon. It was eventually changed back to 0.72s, so that the Underhive could see some rare unicorn AC/2 usage. Sometime after the Clans invaded, they gave the LB 2-X a cooldown module just to troll us.

This brings us to the present day...

Edited by FupDup, 12 January 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[kapusta11]

Tombstoner, on 12 January 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

1 point @ 9km with a cool down of .6 is a threat....

Now I saw everything, lol.

[FupDup]

Tombstoner, on 12 January 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

The ac-2 with extreme range capability in the hands of a mobile light mech could attack your rear armor out side your ability to counter attack. and be a danger cause you have what 8 point of rear armor.... come on be honest....

1 point @ 9km with a cool down of .6 is a threat....

The AC/2 is actually a very horrible choice for light mechs because light mechs are limited by tonnage above all else. The AC/2, even if it got some of the buffs proposed by myself or others in this thread, would still be somewhat inefficient for a 6 ton weapon. Lights need to make the most use of the limited tonnage they have for guns.

Energy weapons are by far the best choice for light mechs because they have the best damage per tonnage ratio, with missiles coming in second place. Ballistics aren't an optimal choice unless they're very very light like MGs are (but MGs aren't very good either...).

[MauttyKoray]

FupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

The AC/2 is actually a very horrible choice for light mechs because light mechs are limited by tonnage above all else. The AC/2, even if it got some of the buffs proposed by myself or others in this thread, would still be somewhat inefficient for a 6 ton weapon. Lights need to make the most use of the limited tonnage they have for guns.

Energy weapons are by far the best choice for light mechs because they have the best damage per tonnage ratio, with missiles coming in second place. Ballistics aren't an optimal choice unless they're very very light like MGs are (but MGs aren't very good either...).

This was my take on balancing the MG. Its not overkill but it as least gives the thing a bite without having to boat 4-6 of them to even see it tickle the enemy.

-Machine Gun (No Ghost Heat Limit) (Overall damage retained but a small bump to make them actually useful without having to boat them to stupid amounts)
Original - 0.08 Damage/Shot | 2000 Ammo/Ton | 160 Damage/Ton
Suggested - 0.1 Damage/Shot | 1600 Ammo/Ton | 160 Damage/Ton

Edited by MauttyKoray, 12 January 2015 - 01:37 PM.

[FupDup]

MauttyKoray, on 12 January 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

This was my take on balancing the MG. Its not overkill but it as least gives the thing a bite without having to boat 4-6 of them to even see it tickle the enemy.

-Machine Gun (No Ghost Heat Limit) (Overall damage retained but a small bump to make them actually useful without having to boat them to stupid amounts)
Original - 0.08 Damage/Shot | 2000 Ammo/Ton | 160 Damage/Ton
Suggested - 0.1 Damage/Shot | 1600 Ammo/Ton | 160 Damage/Ton

For MG's I'd personally start with a removal of the CoF and go from there as needed. Perhaps bump up the IS MG direct damage and make the Clan MG better at critting (different roles for each faction's MGs).

[Tarogato]

Here's my take on a solution:

Take away ghost heat for AC/2 completely.
Reduce the heat on AC/2.
Give it back its range.
Reduce the RoF.
Introduce cooldown modules.
Reduce the impulse/cockpit effects.
Give significant AC/2 cooldown quirks to every single mech that can only mount two or fewer ballistics.

Voila, you can now boat AC/2s in your Jager/Crab/Battlemaster/whathaveyou and it'll be useful, but not overpowered, and yay, you can now put one or two AC/2s on your Cicada/lightmech/whathaveyou and have it still be useful.

kapusta11, on 12 January 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

I use 2xAC2s and 2xUAC5s on my Banshee 3E. If it were up to me I'd cut heat to 0.5 per shot and projectile speed to 1150 so that it syncs well with AC5s/UAC5s.

That was my build on the 3E for a while too, than eventually I decided to try the meta 3x AC5 and I suddenly realised why it's meta: the 2xAC2 + 2x UAC5 really really really sucks in comparison. It's just way too hot and it can jam. Try the 3x AC5 - you'll never look back.

[MauttyKoray]

Tarogato, on 12 January 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Here's my take on a solution:

Take away ghost heat for AC/2 completely. With a cap of 4 before creating Ghost Heat its fine as long as -see next line-
Reduce the heat on AC/2. This, reduce to prior heat, or at least reduce a little. Without Ghost Heat its ridiculous now.
Give it back its range. Two Words: Range Module
Reduce the RoF.
Introduce cooldown modules.
Reduce the impulse/cockpit effects. YES
Give significant AC/2 cooldown quirks to every single mech that can only mount two or fewer ballistics. What? No... On top of Reduced RoF and Cooldown Module? Are you trying to make it a MG with insane DPS?

You can't reduce the RoF AND give it the cooldown module or you're just replacing the MG.

[FupDup]

MauttyKoray, on 12 January 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

You can't reduce the RoF AND give it the cooldown module or you're just replacing the MG.

The MG is a lot lower in tonnage, mainly. 0.5 tons for the MG compared to 6 tons for the AC/2. Much more efficient damage per tonnage ratio, at the cost of having very short range.

(Not saying I agree or disagree with Tarogato, just pointing something out).

[kapusta11]

Tarogato, on 12 January 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Give significant AC/2 cooldown quirks to every single mech that can only mount two or fewer ballistics.

Are we going to nerf weapons in order to justify the existence of quirks? Oh wait we're already doing this with PPCs.

Tarogato, on 12 January 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

That was my build on the 3E for a while too, than eventually I decided to try the meta 3x AC5 and I suddenly realised why it's meta: the 2xAC2 + 2x UAC5 really really really sucks in comparison. It's just way too hot and it can jam. Try the 3x AC5 - you'll never look back.

2xAC2 + 2xUAC5 combo deals 22 burst DPS while 3xAC5 deal only 13.3.

Edited by kapusta11, 12 January 2015 - 02:21 PM.

[Tahribator]

Tarogato, on 12 January 2015 - 01:40 PM, said:

Here's my take on a solution:

Take away ghost heat for AC/2 completely.
Reduce the heat on AC/2.
Give it back its range.
Reduce the RoF.
Introduce cooldown modules.
Reduce the impulse/cockpit effects.
Give significant AC/2 cooldown quirks to every single mech that can only mount two or fewer ballistics.

Voila, you can now boat AC/2s in your Jager/Crab/Battlemaster/whathaveyou and it'll be useful, but not overpowered, and yay, you can now put one or two AC/2s on your Cicada/lightmech/whathaveyou and have it still be useful.
That was my build on the 3E for a while too, than eventually I decided to try the meta 3x AC5 and I suddenly realised why it's meta: the 2xAC2 + 2x UAC5 really really really sucks in comparison. It's just way too hot and it can jam. Try the 3x AC5 - you'll never look back.

Somebody else mentioned this on Reddit too, I think it's a pretty good solution.

[MauttyKoray]

FupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

The MG is a lot lower in tonnage, mainly. 0.5 tons for the MG compared to 6 tons for the AC/2. Much more efficient damage per tonnage ratio, at the cost of having very short range.

(Not saying I agree or disagree with Tarogato, just pointing something out).

Agreed that the MG is much more effective at lower tonnages, however it does such low damage that it requires constant facetime and boating to be any effect. an AC/2 with the suggested increased ROF would replace the boated MGs in terms of DPS while having the range to spare.

[Escef]

FupDup, on 12 January 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

I have an Overlord badge under my faction icon, of course I have one.

I actually did try that build (different armor/engine/stuff but same weapons) during the Phoenix release time period, and honestly it wasn't that great (the AC/2 wasn't as nerfed back then, either). I ended up switching it out for 4 ML + ERPPC + AC/10 (or 2 AC/5).

Some people sold a lot of their Phoenix mechs off. Pre-quirks a lot of them were very "meh", with the only stand-out good ones being the Shadowhawks.

As for the BLR-1D, I tried some ballistics in it when Phoenix first hit. I just couldn't get it to work. I ended up Mastering the mech out using 3xLL, 2xML, and a 350 standard engine A few months back I just sat there looking at it thinking to myself that I was wasting what made it different from the other 2 BLRs. So I rekitted it to the 3xAC2/375XL build, took it out, didn't really do well, put it on a shelf.

Maybe about 3 or 4 months ago I picked it back up again and just shocked the hell out of myself by getting results like this:




EDIT: Here's a little something from a stream I did on New Year's Day (YouTube export quality is rather low, the original highlight looks slightly better.)

Edited by Escef, 12 January 2015 - 04:42 PM.

[Slepnir]

I used to run single AC 2s on several builds before it took the double nerf to dps and range.

The sad reality is unless the AC2 can equal or exceed the damage of an AC5 through DPS it is not a viable weapon. with the AC5 cooldown module it fires every 1.4 seconds, thats 5 damage(to a single location to boot)compared to the current AC2 doing 4 damage to seperate locations in the same amount of time.

The solution is simple-cooldown module that gets the AC2 back into the 0.54-0.56 ROF, while retaining the range nerf making it a viable weapon for single mount loadouts.

[Graugger]

(Puts on Gauss/PPC sniper face)

Man I don't want any friggin plinkanator blinding me so I can't make my uber one shot torso gone shots!
Ferget da AC/2, needs moar nerf, man I'm so sick of being plink planked an' havin ta waste ammo on the ******* that use 'em.
Their velocity needs dropped like OMG way down, there's no reason they should move like my gauss shots when they haz shorter range. Needs to be like 1400 m/s like they had the Clan Ultra AC/2 in their test server way back.

(Take off Gauss/PPC sniper face)
Give me my plinkanator Jager back so I can piss some meta-snipers off please.

[DasSibby]

Remove almost all screenshake, reduce the explosion size when hit, and remove the ghost heat for up to 4 AC2s, and increase the DPS.

It will stop those whining about the screen-shake, make the weapon viable again, and give the Inner Sphere it's dakka to fight against the clans.

[Alex Morgaine]

I think screen shake and returning RoF to near .5/.6 is what the majority are suggesting, plus side idea of removing ghost heat for 4 or less ac 2s. Would those be enough changes to satisfy the majority? Would it still not be used in any situation?

[Kuritaclan]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 January 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

Quad ac2 should never be some chaingun ripsaw for running in and killing crap like it was for a bit. But a viable light, long range support weapon. Yet the Gauss outranges it...despite the ac2 supposed to being a longer range gun than the gauss.

You are wrong. This is its purpose the chaingun ripsaw. Since Quad AC2 is used on Jagers. And they are used to be ballistic anti Air Mechs. So it is hard to argue against it.



It is an old idea. And it served a purpous in war. But since we are only fighting Mechs. The build can't be a viable option. Anyhow. I'm up to the idea to clean the screeshake and give the ac2 something in exchange. Adding DPS by making the bullets more damage will kill the system of name giving ac 2,5,10,20. So no to this idea. - Something has to be done with ghostheat. But i'm not sure what could be a good balance.

As statet in the video Quad AC wasn that effectiv. Well after WW2 Germany made a new Version of an ati aircraft tank. Called Gepard. It's a Double AC system. And it has 2 × 35 mm autocannon, each with 320 rounds anti-air ammunition and 20 rounds anti-tank ammunition. So maybee we need first content for using Quad/Triple/Double AC2 and real Targets jets/plains etc. and have a swapable ammunition system, to give this gun system a place in the game.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 12 January 2015 - 09:51 PM.

[MikeBend]

If the ghost heat starts at cooldown lower than 0.5s, then it shouldnt be a problem for the mechs who can mount only 1 AC2, if cooldown is as low as 0,34s. The reality is - the only option for ballistic on current lights is MG, it would be cool, if AC2 was a viable choice. But at that tonnage, its rate of fire should be doubled, to make it work. Which almost instantly brings the problem of boating by heavier mechs. Solution? As have been proposed in this thread -g ive all light mechs with ballistic hardpoints AC2 cooldown quirks, like some 40%.

Edit: Even if it does give AC2 dps of 6, it will only be possible on light mechs, which at present weight of AC2 are unable to bring any significant amount of ammo. I mean 6 ton gun + 2 tons of ammo for potential 300 damage even at dps of 6, isnt an instawin option on Spider 5K.

Edited by MikeBend, 13 January 2015 - 12:51 AM.