92 replies to this topic

[Kalimaster]

I think that there is a general flaw in "fantasy thinking" when it comes to this subject. If you are going into combat, you just might want to include armor for a sword fight, not a string bikini that malfunctions.

[Tesunie]

Lily from animove, on 13 January 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

as long as those outfits don't pretend to be heavy armored front line tanks there is nothing wrong with these outfits.

Um... This outfit wouldn't be fit for any form of travel, forget about combat. If a women was to try and run in this outfit, she's gonna be rather uncomfortable in the chest area as everything sloshes around. Not to mention that her "girls" are gonna constantly fall out from that... is that even a vest?

This outfit would be extremely uncomfortable for any form of practical use. It is fairly inappropriate and is only even considered because "sex sells".

[Mister Blastman]

I have a four year old daughter and one of my biggest worries is her falling into this "trap" that society has placed for all younger females where their only worth is their looks. It is sick and twisted.

As a dad I'm doing my best to try and pry her from those clutches. They start young, too. Disney princesses are like a gateway drug into it. Beauty is objectified in Disney's films starting with Cinderella. Prior to that Snow White at least had inner beauty that was shown but once Cinderella rolled around, they were already talking about ugly stepdaughters etc. etc. I find that in old Disney books from the sixties I read her.

So what do I do? I show her heaping doses of Doctor Who both new and old (she loves Tom Baker and K-9) and she's already developed an obsession for the Daleks. Most of it is out of fear but the number one thing she's asking for her birthday this year is a remote controlled one. I'll even sprinkle in dashes of things like Coneheads, Star Trek (both classic and next gen) and whatever else I can find or get my hands on. She hasn't seen Star Wars... yet--I blame Lucas and his sickness. If only Disney would release an original widescreen cut of A New Hope without all the edits in HD. We can dream, right?

So I'm stuffing her full of science. I take her to science museums, art museums, teach her about the theater, music--anything to get her away from the vapid, hollow objectification on beauty and steer her into developing talents and knowledge. She still loves princesses. And I still keep trying.

[Domoneky]

HUMOR!

[StompingOnTanks]

Sorry for the late response guys, I wasn't able to get on a computer.

But I'm going to say that what I said was a bit long-winded, and what I have a real problem with is the simple fact that specifically too many MMO games don't have any respectable female characters. And believe me, I've played enough MMOs to know that it's a widespread problem.

My girlfriend and I are in a long-distance relationship and we both love video games, so naturally, when we have the time we will play online games together. We both especially love shooters. But the thing is, neither of us have the money or a super-high-performance computer (but ours are still nice) to play the latest and greatest like Battlefield 4, Cod: AW etc. So naturally, we turn to MMOFPS games which are free and don't have system reqs that are through the roof.

My girlfriend doesn't mind playing male characters at all, but it's still nice when she gets to pick a female character to play as. But naturally, as we went from MMOFPS to MMOFPS, we discovered the very alarming tendency with female character designs in these games. Not only that, but you often have to pay real money to play a female character at all - and if you have to pay money to play a woman in the game, I guarantee that 99% of the women in that game also look like what I mentioned. After a while, this got pretty sigh-worthy for both of us for obvious reasons.

Then my friend at school tells me "Hey try this MMORPG!" and I'm like "Well I've never tried an MMORPG before, guess I will" so I do, and I'm having a lot of fun, but then we run into the exact same problem we saw with the MMOFPS games. Female characters are free, and not all of them look like total bimbos (depends what race and class you pick), so it's not as bad, but many of the female characters are still irritating.

So, I decided I'd had enough and had to state my mind. Thus, this thread.

Edited by StompingOnTanks, 13 January 2015 - 12:12 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

I have a four year old daughter and one of my biggest worries is her falling into this "trap" that society has placed for all younger females where their only worth is their looks. It is sick and twisted.

As a dad I'm doing my best to try and pry her from those clutches. They start young, too. Disney princesses are like a gateway drug into it. Beauty is objectified in Disney's films starting with Cinderella. Prior to that Snow White at least had inner beauty that was shown but once Cinderella rolled around, they were already talking about ugly stepdaughters etc. etc. I find that in old Disney books from the sixties I read her.

So what do I do? I show her heaping doses of Doctor Who both new and old (she loves Tom Baker and K-9) and she's already developed an obsession for the Daleks. Most of it is out of fear but the number one thing she's asking for her birthday this year is a remote controlled one. I'll even sprinkle in dashes of things like Coneheads, Star Trek (both classic and next gen) and whatever else I can find or get my hands on. She hasn't seen Star Wars... yet--I blame Lucas and his sickness. If only Disney would release an original widescreen cut of A New Hope without all the edits in HD. We can dream, right?

So I'm stuffing her full of science. I take her to science museums, art museums, teach her about the theater, music--anything to get her away from the vapid, hollow objectification on beauty and steer her into developing talents and knowledge. She still loves princesses. And I still keep trying.

starts already with toys and stuff, when all grandmas gift dolls and such, then they are disappointed because shes playing with the duplo train, because its more interactive and interesting XD

[Hex Pallett]

Mister Blastman, on 13 January 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

I have a four year old daughter...

Since we're on this topic - for the sake of different voices, sci-fi is not necessary the only hard-counter for modern female objectification. Harry Potter is pretty damn good for that sake, too. Also, I've come across this Tim Burton-ish dark tale called Skary Childrin and the Carousel of Sorrow, and it's fan-f***ing-tastic. The author lady actually made a trailer for the book:



Back to videogames...you know, I just hope one day we could feature some women like Big Mama Thornton in videogames.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Welcome to K-Town folks (probably just because of the subject matter)

Having said that, congrats on actually being mature enough to talk about all this
I was expecting to see it dissolve rather rapidly when I saw the name of this thread in K-Town.

Tesunie, on 13 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Um... This outfit wouldn't be fit for any form of travel, forget about combat.

Amazing the stuff ya learn, just listening to your sisters.
(I have 3)

[Tesunie]

Shar Wolf, on 14 January 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Amazing the stuff ya learn, just listening to your sisters.
(I have 3)

I have none...

Thought it would be rather common sense. Of course, my Mom wasn't exactly one to hide things that should be known. (Not saying she was out there either, but I know enough that if/when I have a girlfriend/wife, I'll at least have an idea about what to expect. AKA: Have Ice Cream and Chocolate on hand... Always...)

[Alaskan Nobody]

Tesunie, on 14 January 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

I have none...

You have shown yourself to be more observant than most I have talked to in your circumstances then.


Back on topic (if we are allowed to do that for a while)

I object to sexualization on several points - some of which are religious and I will leave out of this - several have already been mentioned - but there is one (that was mentioned) that I want to comment on further.

The more of it (or anything) there is, the less it means.

As an example - at one point cars (motorized vehicles) were the sign of the upper class.

Now - they are common enough that many middle class teenagers expect to be given one.
Few honestly respect them (the car) anymore.

A similar thing with sexuality.
The more of it you are exposed to - the less it means - and that is a very very sad thing to me.

Edit: there is a webcomic I was reading once and the character made a comment that stuck with me - lets see if I can dig it up...

Edited Edit:
Nevermind - not gonna go on an archive binge for it - and it has a HUGE archive
In short it was the main character (who spends a fair chunk of the comic in bed with girls) commenting that he refused to watch porn because of that effect.
He didn't want to... (cannot remember the word I am looking for... dillute? kind of?) the effect of seeing a woman in a sexual state.

Edited Edited Edit:
That doesn't quite sound like it did in my head.

Edited by Shar Wolf, 14 January 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[EpicWarrior202]

K-Town?
*cynical eyeroll*

[Kilo 40]

I just put my daughter in a burka and then wag my finger at her and say "Looks don't matter and I don't want you to be objectified! also sex is dirty and you should grow up to hate it as much as you hate the naked, or near naked, female body!".

[Tesunie]

Ozealot, on 15 January 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

It's actually women who design these "sexualizations" mind you. Ever heard of a woman who cares about men being "sexualized"? I didn't. But perhaps some want a carebear bonus. Well, you actually get one from women. After that they (maybe) get sexualized all by themselves... lol. Or it's your grandma.

Have you seen the covers of a Romance novel? There are sexualizations of men as well, but it's less a problem/common and topless men are not considered as "sexual" as a topless women (in our current day society at least). Different markets/gender targets, different genders being sexualized.

However, a sexualized male image can still be a mental impact on many men. Those "chiseled abs" and "rock hard biceps" effect many boy's/men's mental state. This often leads to men (just as it does women) to try to obtain that image. Over workouts. Constant worry about their appearance and possible loss/lack of muscle. Can even lead to steroid use and (I think I have the right term here) "oil injections" to either make those massive bulk of muscles or make it appear as though it is muscles. Sometimes (particularly with oil injections), it can even lead to death in the attempt to "correct" their appearance. (Very much like female problems, but it is less heard of or less common. Not an expert in this field.)

We men also have other ways that we get "sexualized". Seems like every guy is worried about "how big" they are "down there". (If you are a guy, don't deny that you've worried if you where big enough or even too big!)

A lot of the sexualization of women is aimed more for men, and are typically made by men (or with men in mind for sales). Not saying all of them are of course. Someone on Deviantart actually did a poll on the subject (to some extent) about what the artists gender is and what they enjoy drawing the most (male or female figures). Out of 8 categories:
- 33% (62 votes) was a male artist who enjoyed drawing female forms.
- 22% (40 votes) was male artists who enjoyed drawing male or female forms equally.
- Only 4% (7 votes) of the votes where male artists who enjoyed drawing the male form.
Now, excluding at this point the female artists, there was 109 male artists who voted. This makes:
- 57% of men like drawing females
- 37% didn't have a preference
- 6% liked drawing the males
(For whatever reasons they may have. I actually am a male who prefers drawing men because... I can. My own body makes a remarkable reference and I find the process easier for me to understand. Other people who voted here, and their reasons I can only speculate about.)

On that poll, only 33 girls voted. Their total results and scores where almost identical, leading far more of an impression that, just like with toy preferences, girls seem to be more even preferenced and less gender associated than we guys are, at least when it comes to artistic preferences and "drawing genders".

Edit: AKA: Those sexualized female images are probably more likely to have been created by a male than by a female, but at the same time it wouldn't be a stretch to find some of them being made by women. Also consider how many males to females are in the video game industry...

Edited by Tesunie, 15 January 2015 - 06:34 PM.

[Tesunie]

Sexualization, or at least the degree of it, is honestly based on the individual person. There are some generalized standards that can be called out for some situations, but there is also a lot of grey area. Some sexualization of characters is to be expected. There are other parts that are unnecessary and unrealistic.

However, I think "sexualization" and "sex sells" has gone too far when a TV commercial tells me "eat this cheap hamburger and you'll have all the sweet, sexy girls hanging off your arms". I'm sure you've seen a similar themed advertisement, where girls (or guys) are hanging off each other in a very intimate manner, usually with one gender or the other (or even both) in extremely revealing and skimpy clothing. particularly after using said product. (Go from being a nobody, to sex magnet!)

The relation here is when it's a character (playable or not) that is basically in the game strictly for "eye candy", and they don't even look appropriate for the part in many cases. (Ex: I'm a heavy armor warrior class. The male types wear thick metal armor. The female types of the same class has so much skin showing, you are afraid they may pop out of their armor when they run.)

Some "eye candy" is expected and reasonable. However, there are cases when it just gets done too far, and it's sexualization for "sex sell" sake only. (Am I making sense here still? It's confusing to try saying, especially in text.) (And yes, culture does also play a factor in what can be sexual and what isn't.)


I always try to think about all sides of a debate, and try (don't always succeed) to be as in depth as I can when making my points. I also try to respect the other sides point of view. Actually, I often times will point out counter points to even my own point of view (and/or the one being discussed) just to make mention of them.

I am one who doesn't care about expected images, for either gender. As far as myself go, I'm not the super fit dude. My hair does whatever it wants, no matter how much I comb it (I gave up trying to get it to lay down right). Etc. However, I do realize that some people are strongly effected by public image expectations. Some of the sexualized images do nothing to aid people with their own self image. (Ex: Barbie is so tall and disfigured, girls could never look like her. Magazines tend to stretch their model's images into a taller/thinner model, and will digitally remove blemishes. Once more, creating a "perfect" sexualized image of what is expected of those genders. These are but minor cases, but sometimes it's the minor cases that make the strongest impact.)

As far as telling those people "you're fine", its a good notion, but it often leaves those people feeling even worse. Just like telling a guy who believes his equipment is too small "it's not the size that matters, it's how you use it" tends to just make them feel degraded (even if it is true). That is one expectation that there is rarely any good way to approach, as once people have a self image set for themselves (typically imposed on them by socially considered norms presented to them by often times (over and needlessly) sexualized images), they normally have a hard time shaking that image away.


Basically, I'm not arguing about sexualization as a general principal, just how often it is used and/or abused to the point of going "too far". It's like romance can be a great driving force in a story. Sex may happen because of it. Doesn't mean it should suddenly make the story turn from a good novel to a porno inspired piece. (I've seen some authors that I loved "expand" their stories and quickly went from good story telling with some sexual tension (which is fine), right to a "I matured my writing" and delve far too much focus into the "romance" that it turned into "sex" and the story became lost. (And my interest in said story/author was gone.))

Romance. Eye candy. Sexual tension. Fine. Sexualization for sex sake only, or for sex sells... starts to push the limit a bit more. As I said, this is a topic that has a lot of grey areas to it. Do I wish for less sexualization where it is not needed, yes. But how far is too far? It isn't something you can always easily place some simple rules on and go.

[Lil Cthulhu]

How about being bothered by strippers or prostitutes. You know, real women who are being objectified, and not just a collection of pixles/polygons.,

[Tesunie]

Lil Cthulhu, on 16 January 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

How about being bothered by strippers or prostitutes. You know, real women who are being objectified, and not just a collection of pixles/polygons.,

Ah, but I am. Some of them should find better jobs. Personally, I feel such jobs should never be, but things are what they are. There is nothing I can do or say about/against those positions, so instead we talk about things that people (the industry) could change.

I'm afraid I may be making less sense here... but needless to say we are talking about it being forced upon people nearby, compared to those who willingly seek such sexualized things. If I purchase a game for play, and sex is forced upon me (through a sexualized image), that is something that should not be. If I go to a strip club, or watch a porno, then those things are what I expect to see, as it's what I'd be seeking. Different situations, different reasons.

Basically, though related, they are different from this topic and the reasons for our statements. One is a willingness to seek it out. The other is not wishing to seek it, and having it find you instead.

[Vassago Rain]

I like my protagonists super masculine and awesome.



If I can't be awesome in a videogame, what's the point of living?

[Keira RAVEN McKenna]

Tesunie, on 16 January 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

Ah, but I am. Some of them should find better jobs. Personally, I feel such jobs should never be, but things are what they are.

As a woman I find myself surprised to say... I disagree... prostitution/escort services ARE needed and there shouldn't be any shame in providing that service, whether male or female.

Examples where such a service was needed... Servicemen and women injured in duty to the point of disfigurement leading to potential partners shunning them. In fact anyone in this situation. Everyone needs a sexual realise, its basic biochemistry. Procreation is hard wired into our species survival behaviour. To deny this tension release is torture and suffering for the victim. Escorts provide this service in lieu of a regular partner.

Same with the elderly, the lonely, the morbidly obese, burns victims, people suffering birth defects, paraplegics etc.

It has its place in society. We dont have the right to deny those people this human contact.

And for the escort workers... who are we to say they could get a better job. This job provides a comfort for those souls who would otherwise go without this contact and be outsiders. It pays well, and depending on the clientele, they can ever hold their heads up proudly for doing what needed to be done but most others are too opinionated, selfish or prudish to do themselves. Nurses have to put up with far worse working conditions as do morticians and many other trades out there.

I say more power to them!

Edited by Keira RAVEN McKenna, 18 January 2015 - 12:57 AM.

[Tesunie]

Keira RAVEN McKenna, on 18 January 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

As a woman I find myself surprised to say... I disagree... prostitution/escort services ARE needed and there shouldn't be any shame in providing that service, whether male or female.

I will disagree with your opinion, but you are entitled to your opinion. Please keep this in mind here. Respecting your opinion doesn't mean I can't debate the point and present my reasons for why my opinion is as it is.

The service is typically degrading to people, male or female. Sex is a very private and intimate action. To be paid to preform these "services" on others is placing a value on a person's body. It's also degrading not to the prostitute, but also to the person paying for the services, as they are basically saying that the only way they are good enough to be with others is to pay for them to be with them.

Now, I'm not saying finding and connecting to other people is easy, it isn't. I'm also not going to say that there can't be additional challenges to those with disfigurements or other conditions. However, to excuse this practice because "it's a biological need" or "Everyone needs a sexual release" isn't proper either. It's an excuse. There are very far and very few situations where I may be talked into it being even remotely considered. Otherwise, most of those people you refer to have a hand. It's worked for billions of other people. (Now that isn't something I normally talk about, oh boy... )

I'm 29 years old. Guess what. Still a virgin. It's not as "needed" as you seem to make it sound. Unless I'm some super freak who just seem to have reproductive equipment that just doesn't need that kind of attention...


As far as "escorts" go, that depends upon what kind of escort you are referring to. There are escorts that are basically hired for "appearances", and have nothing to do with sexual activities at all. It's often used with famous people who want to make an impression, but don't have anyone else to go with.


As I said, I wish many of them could find better jobs. Jobs that could either teach or work with that person's skills (with skills other than sexual related ones). However, that is not how the world works. I see that, and though I speak out against it, there isn't much I can do about it, besides just not participate in those activities myself.

In the end, each person must make their own choices, right or wrong. What I think is irrelevant overall. As I've told other people, I'll say it here (because it seems most appropriate), "I feel it's wrong, but I'm not going to tell them it or they are wrong. It's their life, and their decision to make."

Edited by Tesunie, 18 January 2015 - 04:51 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Tesunie, on 18 January 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

I will disagree with your opinion, but you are entitled to your opinion. Please keep this in mind here. Respecting your opinion doesn't mean I can't debate the point and present my reasons for why my opinion is as it is.

The service is typically degrading to people, male or female. Sex is a very private and intimate action. To be paid to preform these "services" on others is placing a value on a person's body. It's also degrading not to the prostitute, but also to the person paying for the services, as they are basically saying that the only way they are good enough to be with others is to pay for them to be with them.

Now, I'm not saying finding and connecting to other people is easy, it isn't. I'm also not going to say that there can't be additional challenges to those with disfigurements or other conditions. However, to excuse this practice because "it's a biological need" or "Everyone needs a sexual release" isn't proper either. It's an excuse. There are very far and very few situations where I may be talked into it being even remotely considered. Otherwise, most of those people you refer to have a hand. It's worked for billions of other people. (Now that isn't something I normally talk about, oh boy... )

I'm 29 years old. Guess what. Still a virgin. It's not as "needed" as you seem to make it sound. Unless I'm some super freak who just seem to have reproductive equipment that just doesn't need that kind of attention...


As far as "escorts" go, that depends upon what kind of escort you are referring to. There are escorts that are basically hired for "appearances", and have nothing to do with sexual activities at all. It's often used with famous people who want to make an impression, but don't have anyone else to go with.


As I said, I wish many of them could find better jobs. Jobs that could either teach or work with that person's skills (with skills other than sexual related ones). However, that is not how the world works. I see that, and though I speak out against it, there isn't much I can do about it, besides just not participate in those activities myself.

In the end, each person must make their own choices, right or wrong. What I think is irrelevant overall. As I've told other people, I'll say it here (because it seems most appropriate), "I feel it's wrong, but I'm not going to tell them it or they are wrong. It's their life, and their decision to make."

If you agree it's their choice, and no matter how loudly social justice warriors and feminists complain, it'll always be their choice, then what's the point of arguing?

It's not degrading to anyone. It's just another deal between adults. Also the second oldest profession, and it's not gonna go away ever.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 18 January 2015 - 05:11 PM.