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#1 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 11:22 PM

http://www.forbes.co...n-to-play-fair/


'
Stop Getting Matchmaking Wrong! Why Destiny, Call Of Duty, Battlefield Et Al Must Finally Learn To Play Fair

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Titan character. Especially as I fancied some of that ‘bubble shield’ action I’ve found so maddening during my Crucible games as a Warlock.

As soon as my new Titan could enter the Crucible I dived straight in, eager to keep levelling up in the part of Destiny that for me has provided the most consistent enjoyment. And then I died. Over and over and over again. With barely a kill or two (usually at the end of a rocket launcher) of my own to break the fatal monotony.
While I’ll happily admit I’m not a particularly brilliant Destiny player, I usually hold my own. So a lack of skills couldn’t totally be to blame for my complete and continual annihilation. Luckily there was an all-too-apparent other explanation for my endless failure: my pathetically low rank versus the other players I kept being thrown up against.
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Got a feeling I’m not going to be too popular with my Destiny team mates…
Fanboy Wars: The Newest eBook From Forbes
Five Essential Fixes for ‘Destiny’ a few weeks back.
The huge and frankly unfair challenge facing new Destiny players even more than my ‘second character’ woes shows that the sort of matchmaking flaws exposed in Destiny aren’t just a bit frustrating; they’re potentially hugely damaging to the long-term online shelf-life of the game as struggling newcomers quickly abandon their struggle and move onto something more rewarding.
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Everyone here looks equally tough, but their level scores will likely tell a different story.
Of course, Destiny is hardly the first game that can’t seem to get matchmaking right. Looking at just a trio of the most popular online games, Battlefield can’t matchmake well consistently; the Ghost Recon reboot routinely threw up laughable mismatches; racers with the possible exception of Project Gotham seem to love nothing more than to pitch you against vastly more experienced drivers; and I swear the Call of Duty games don’t even bother trying (see screenshot below…).
In fact, I’d argue that in all my years of gaming the only games that have got matchmaking pretty much right for most of the time have been the Halo series. But even if only one game can manage effective matchmaking, then that’s enough to raise serious questions about why nobody else can do it.
Halo’s relative matchmaking success makes Destiny’s failings look all the more ironic, of course, given that both games are made by Bungie. It’s almost as if Bungie has suddenly forgotten how to pull off its top online party trick exactly at the time when it needed it most. But actually I don’t think the situation is quite that simple. Destiny’s persistent failure to deliver balanced online games is also a reflection of the type of game Bungie has decided to create.
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A recent Call Of Duty team deathmatch roster. Ouch.
In other words, I think Destiny’s matchmaking issues cast a particularly harsh spotlight on a growing dichotomy in modern gaming caused by the desire to introduce RPG elements to what was once a straightforward online shooter world.
The thing is, online shooters now try to feed your addiction by rewarding your progress through the levels with new often better weapons, new often better armour, and. most significantly in Destiny’s case, new improved abilities. This seems very attractive on paper, of course. Borderlands in particular has shown the potential appeal of the ‘shoot and loot’ format, and getting my hands on new weapons or new attachments for weapons has proved a powerful intoxicator with the last few Battlefield and Call Of Duty releases.
At the same time, though, I’ve noticed that even these relatively light Battlefield/COD ‘loot reward’ experiences have created growing frustrations about the way online sessions can pan out when you’re the victim of serious matchmaking failures. So now that Destiny has introduced a system where your level is directly related to how effective your character is in combat, even the slightest matchmaking inequality has the potential to upset a game balance and frustrate players. So it’s inevitable that when you get routine large matchmaking Destiny inequalities like pitching level 2 characters against level 29s, the results are truly game-ruiningly bad.
Hence the dichotomy I mentioned earlier. The more game makers try to keep people playing their games online by rewarding them with gear, the more likely they are to actually drive some people away from their game if they don’t get matchmaking absolutely spot on.
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If you’re a low-level Destiny character your relatively low level character abilities can make you feel much more susceptible to instant death at the hands of a sniper.
In the ‘old days’ of online games, if you found yourself in a mismatched online game you at least knew your character makeup would be more or less the same as everyone else’s, so if you played particularly well you might still have a chance of making your mark. If you find yourself in a mismatched game of Destiny (and, to a lesser degree, the current versions of CoD and Battlefield) on the other hand, I’d argue you might as well just quit out and start looking for a slightly more even match.
There are, of course, defences for the game industry’s seemingly terminal lack of matchmaking know-how. Not least the fact that managing the game stats and ping scores of hundreds of thousands, even millions of players around the world in ‘real time’ and then bringing enough compatible players together without taking hours about it must be really, really hard.
Obviously nobody wants to sit there for half an hour at a time waiting for a suitably fair game to be put together by a matchmaking system. But surely most people would be happy to wait at least a minute or two longer to be put in an evenly matched game rather than wasting 10 minutes or more getting mercilessly pummelled in a mismatched game. Hell, I reckon some people might even take the option of having a few suitably levelled bots in a game if a full ‘human’ contingent can’t be found.
I guess some might argue that it’s nice now and then to be able to feel the full might of your hard-earned prowess in Destiny by imperiously dispatching much lower-ranked players. But I really don’t see this as having long-term appeal or being much of a draw for true gamers.
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The Xbox One was supposed to improve matchmaking through its more advanced ‘back end’. Not seeing much sign of it working so far, though.
One further potential defence for the game makers is that it probably isn’t all their fault. I remember an Xbox spokesperson at a pre-launch event for the Xbox One stating that one of the key features of the new console was the way its improved game server handling could deliver enhanced matchmaking. I even piped up to compliment him for this ‘advance’, as I felt it had the potential to be a massive strength for the console. But sadly I’ve seen little if any evidence of this supposed advance coming to pass. So it seems likely Microsoft MSFT -1.25% and Sony need to get involved too in making the matchmaking system fit for modern purpose.
Ultimately, though, I don’t really care where the matchmaking improvements come from. All that matters is that if online gaming is going to continue to evolve in the direction it’s going at the moment, somebody somewhere has to finally get a proper grip on an issue that’s blighted the online gaming world for far, far too long.
Addendum
Some commenters have stated that I should have been clearer about the way I discussed the impact of character and weapon progression in Destiny. So I’ll try to put that right here. The issue is that the base defence and attack values for your character’s armour and weapons are normalised in standard PvP matches. However, the abilities associated with your character’s sub-class progression and your weapon and armour progression do carry over, so low level characters are still disadvantaged in ways that can make themselves frustratingly felt. And in any case, this issue doesn’t have any impact at all on my argument that new players are simply disadvantaged by sheer experience – especially map knowledge – when they’re put up against people with much higher rankings.

#2 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 11:48 PM

I would be willing to sit for 10 minutes for a match where my side isnt a bunch of hopeless bumbelling idiots who can lose 6-3 and 6-0 leads in less then 2 minutes....Id wait 45 minutes if it meant getting matches where I was placed on the side that would win more often then lose.....

As it is now in WoT and MWO, it hasnt mattered how I play, what I do, im on the losing side time and again. In WoT, I am an above average player, considering the average is like 48%, im at a 52% overall, if you use XVM, im like a 1250 eff rating, im a green so im not a scrub. So that whole....Oh your the suck on the team, that is in no way true. In MWO, Idk what my rating is, but I do atleat participate and in some battles deal a fairly hefty amount of damage, id consider 910, 648, and anything above 526 to be my fair share...and I have been doing just that in just about every game where I do not get melted in 2 seconds.....

but at what point does the rest of the side pony up and stop sucking and at what point do I get to be on the side that wins? Cuz this is getting beyond absurd.

I really loathe MMs....

#3 Rampancy

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Posted 12 January 2015 - 11:57 PM

Strive to play better until you stop losing. Watch your problems magically disappear.

#4 MoonUnitBeta

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:00 AM

I liked it because it was long (indeed, what she said) and had pictures... I haven't read the whole thing yet though.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 January 2015 - 12:00 AM.


#5 Funkadelic Mayhem

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:00 AM

View PostRampancyTW, on 12 January 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

Strive to play better until you stop losing. Watch your problems magically disappear.

pay to win better unill you stop paying. Watch your magic skills implode on itself.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 13 January 2015 - 12:03 AM.


#6 Rampancy

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:06 AM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 13 January 2015 - 12:00 AM, said:

pay to win better unill you stop paying. Watch your magic skills implode on itself.
I'm really not sure where you're going with this.

#7 Milocinia

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:19 AM

If I'm skillful enough to win then I should win, not be forced to lose to balance out some magical number.

Matchmaking last night was so abysmal I had to close the game before my rage got out of hand. First game this morning, dropped into the same game as MoonUnitBeta which was Forest Colony Snow conquest. Our team ended up spread entirely from our spawn to their spawn across the water and got picked off one by one. It was a complete farce just like last night with the majority of the team so abhorrently stupid and incapable of comprehending the concept of teamwork. I'm not touching the game now until an official announcement about improvements to the matchmaker.

Learn to play, be a better team player, pug life... yes yes. There's not much more I can do when I'm in the top 3 damage dealers on my team in almost every game and have the most kills half of the time.

I challenge anyone at PGI to get stomped 15 times in a row across 2 days and tell me honestly if they think the game is worth playing.

#8 Rampancy

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:29 AM

Hint: you aren't playing nearly as well as you think you are. Also, any team-based matchmaker will require there to be a high end and low end caliber of player.

The better you are, the harder your Elo score will force you to carry. Assuming everybody plays to their average ability, whether YOUR performance is above or below your average ability will determine whether or not you win. Want to win more? Elevate your play. The matchmaker can't hold everybody's hand at the same time.

Edited by RampancyTW, 13 January 2015 - 12:30 AM.


#9 Karl Streiger

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:30 AM

MWO is highly depended on Team Play - its not WoT where your tank with the right knowledge can single the entire enemy team.

In MWO - your individual skill doesn't matter - if you are not over the top (playing MWO about 4-6hours per day 7 days the week) its likely that you don't have a chance when you fight alone vs two or three targets.
OK sometimes bad happen - and you fight in your Centurion vs 2 Mechs with twice your weight and you kill them both - but that doesn't happen often.

And ELO works - better team players should win more often - the difference in ELO is small - that means 2 above average players could be mixed with 2 below average players - but it could also be truth that 4 above average and 1 good player, have 3 terribad player (AFK farmers) in their team - average ELO doesn't differ here.
and the skill difference between good and average is small. sometimes its enough that the average gamer uses a heavier Mech or get you in his sights a split second earlier at his optimum range.

For a team game - PGI should think hard how to discourage solo dops and encourage real team battles.
Alternative is to have a tier system and other game mechanics - so that you can sit in your Tier 1 Atlas and face only bad mechs that you can solo - (same es WoT) sometimes you are on top - and sometimes you are at the lower end.

#10 Deathlike

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 12:32 AM

The problem to some extent is a lack of good tutorials built into the game. Really, I think I keep saying this in every thread when it comes to the MM. That won't entirely stop the bad player problem though.

I would like to think, particularly when I drop solo that everyone is on the same level... as best can be possibly be. However, I find that I could be just as much as a "PUG boss" as I am irrelevant to why the we lose a match (nothing I could do to stop the inevitable destruction of the team that does something horribly bad things).

So, I don't know what to tell you.

The best you could do is "suggest" PGI create a "true lobby" system like the MW4 days... where people paid/hosted servers to play with other people in open matches... allowed them to "like" a team and eventually join them... in greater hopes to play in more meaningful matches like CW or league play.

However, those dreams are buried as Lostech, and thus never again be seen as the options that helped build a community. It's sad really.

Edited by Deathlike, 13 January 2015 - 12:32 AM.


#11 norus

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 01:27 AM

I keep hearing about elo in MWO but I do question if it exists. Queuing with a friend who was pretty new sometimes we get matched with/against lords and other times with complete newbs. Luckily he picks stuff up fast and solo queued a bit along with me helping. I literally spectated a stock timberwolf I think who didn't seem to know about locking for missiles and was just amazingly bad, who i could tell the exact person he was queued with as they both stayed together and failed together. There is no way I should be getting matched with people on such complete opposites of the spectrum if any kind of decent system is in place.

#12 Lily from animove

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 01:40 AM

View PostKyocera, on 13 January 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

now until an official announcement about improvements to the matchmaker.

Learn to play, be a better team player, pug life... yes yes. There's not much more I can do when I'm in the top 3 damage dealers on my team in almost every game and have the most kills half of the time.



I know that feel bro,

but in the end, stop pugging to end your issues. I try hard yet we lose a lot because of beign grouped with poeple you ahve been grouped of. yet when I click ready without a group, it is my decision to allow the game giving me these people.

but then:

View Postnorus, on 13 January 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

I keep hearing about elo in MWO but I do question if it exists. Queuing with a friend who was pretty new sometimes we get matched with/against lords and other times with complete newbs. Luckily he picks stuff up fast and solo queued a bit along with me helping. I literally spectated a stock timberwolf I think who didn't seem to know about locking for missiles and was just amazingly bad, who i could tell the exact person he was queued with as they both stayed together and failed together. There is no way I should be getting matched with people on such complete opposites of the spectrum if any kind of decent system is in place.



which truly makes me wonder how elo judgment really works, because I had the same experience with a newbie clanbuddy.

#13 PhoenixFire55

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 01:56 AM

View PostRampancyTW, on 12 January 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

Strive to play better until you stop losing. Watch your problems magically disappear.


The better you play the worse are the teammates the MM gives you on average. Problems only get worse and carry harder case intensifies.

#14 Mudhutwarrior

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:22 AM

The issues in solo are mainly the extreme learning curve. You have MM dropping the most experienced players against people with less than a thousand matches. They don't understand the quirks, weak points on individual mech, map spots to go to or cover in and such. I see decent solid pug teams not making any real mistakes and watch them get slaughtered by players far above their experience or just facing farmers who have come down from group/cw to rub sand in their faces or rake in cbills.

When PGI makes it more profitable for the hardcore to move up and stay in group/cw then it will start to balance.

The get better crowd does not understand that no one learns in the few seconds before you kill them. Pugs need to stretch out the experience to max out what they can learn. 3 minute stomps only serve the egos of the stomper and does nothing to improve the player base.

So I feel PGI needs to look at a few things to improve gameplay in solo.

Add Voip so some form of knowledge can be shared and coordination taught.


Increase rewards in Group and CW so the farmers find a home where they belong and give incentive to solos to try harder and move up.

Aggressively pursue stompers/synch droppers in solo by tracking and reports not necessarily banning them from game but from solo for periods of time. Pushing them out of solo by making the pie a little less sweet.

I think those three ideas would go a long way to letting MM/ELO balance better and make matches more equitable and give incentive to move up the food chain as one gets better.

You can never end stomps as it just happens but you can reduce them quite a lot.

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 13 January 2015 - 02:23 AM.


#15 Charronn

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 02:33 AM

View PostKyocera, on 13 January 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

If I'm skillful enough to win then I should win, not be forced to lose to balance out some magical number.

Matchmaking last night was so abysmal I had to close the game before my rage got out of hand. First game this morning, dropped into the same game as MoonUnitBeta which was Forest Colony Snow conquest. Our team ended up spread entirely from our spawn to their spawn across the water and got picked off one by one. It was a complete farce just like last night with the majority of the team so abhorrently stupid and incapable of comprehending the concept of teamwork. I'm not touching the game now until an official announcement about improvements to the matchmaker.

Learn to play, be a better team player, pug life... yes yes. There's not much more I can do when I'm in the top 3 damage dealers on my team in almost every game and have the most kills half of the time.

I challenge anyone at PGI to get stomped 15 times in a row across 2 days and tell me honestly if they think the game is worth playing.

I have to agree with you here.You as 1 player can only do so much and carrying nearly every game is damn hard not to mention tedious.
In this game I don't think the population is big enough to support fairer or ranked matchmaking.It just lumps everyone into the same crap,time after time.As for one of the posts above about new players not being able to target/move etc I have seen it all too often.There is no way new players should be pitched in with seasoned vets,it's just not fair.

#16 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 04:51 AM

View PostKyocera, on 13 January 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

If I'm skillful enough to win then I should win, not be forced to lose to balance out some magical number.

Matchmaking last night was so abysmal I had to close the game before my rage got out of hand. First game this morning, dropped into the same game as MoonUnitBeta which was Forest Colony Snow conquest. Our team ended up spread entirely from our spawn to their spawn across the water and got picked off one by one. It was a complete farce just like last night with the majority of the team so abhorrently stupid and incapable of comprehending the concept of teamwork. I'm not touching the game now until an official announcement about improvements to the matchmaker.

Learn to play, be a better team player, pug life... yes yes. There's not much more I can do when I'm in the top 3 damage dealers on my team in almost every game and have the most kills half of the time.

I challenge anyone at PGI to get stomped 15 times in a row across 2 days and tell me honestly if they think the game is worth playing.



This, so many thousands of times...this...

I just want MMs to die in a fire and for the game ot pick the players it needs and go.....The MMs seem to have a point pool of like 1000, a good player is worth 150, the other team gets 2 average players of 75 each, then if your side gets another good player who is like 125 pts, then the other side gets a similar point value player until you run out of points. That ends up with there being 2 good players on 1 side surrounded by terribads, cuz thats all the MM could "afford" and so game after game, your being good actually hurts you, it makes you worth more and therefore your always on the side that loses cuz its you as a good player, surrounded by bads....

MM's do not reward "Good" play, its actually a detriment to be good, its better to be average or bad...Only if your like an absolutely amazing player who is somehow able to carry, then you do ok, but if your just an above average or decent player who pulls their own weight but still kinda is relying on the rest of the side to pull their own weight, then its just a nightmare. Im pretty sure, that even despite my absolutely atrocious scores in this game, im prolly weighted as an "Average" or "Decent" player, maybe cuz of my mech choice of being in Assaults all the time, so therefore im weighted higher and surrounded by more bads....cuz in a game where its supposed to keep you around 50%, this MM has failed miserably...

I now have exactly 100 games with a 46% WR...lol. Guess im doomed to be on the lower end of hte elo curve...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 13 January 2015 - 04:52 AM.


#17 Wolfwood592

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 05:09 AM

View PostRampancyTW, on 13 January 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

Hint: you aren't playing nearly as well as you think you are. Also, any team-based matchmaker will require there to be a high end and low end caliber of player.

The better you are, the harder your Elo score will force you to carry. Assuming everybody plays to their average ability, whether YOUR performance is above or below your average ability will determine whether or not you win. Want to win more? Elevate your play. The matchmaker can't hold everybody's hand at the same time.


Pointless post. You lose because you aren't playing well enough!!!!

I have gotten over 1k damage and 5 kills and still lost matches because my team mates crumbled. Don't try to mask a broken system by saying its the players, you just seem silly.

Edited by Wolfwood592, 13 January 2015 - 05:09 AM.


#18 Mycrus

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 05:40 AM

thankfully this doesnt apply to MWO... i'm playing with my kid's account now... which is 100% a free-to-play account... grinded out 3 catapults across the years... with very sparse playing...

i don't particularly feel outmatched when i'm using that account as opposed to my normal account with 80++ mechs kitted out...

#19 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 06:18 AM

View PostFunkadelic Mayhem, on 13 January 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

its 2015, people dont need to be told w is forward and s is back and the mouse is independent of WASD AND you can key bind to what fits you!!! JFC! ITS NOT1989!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I know your dont, and thats ok.. Keep the failed system failing.... But you, like others failing this game hold on to "lights take more skill then the other 3 classes, and thats ok...except when "anything other then a light does top dmg, then awesome non light" "I need to be told the wasd and mouse are different, and thats the reason this game failed" because real skill is moot" or /'more pew pew make up for skill/', or "HSR makes up for me missing its your fault not mine"!


THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS! Its 2015, not 1987. There are no excuses game developers can get by with other then the excuses the gamers let them get by with! AND THAT IS WHY F2P is the norm now! NO ONE WANTS TO PAY FOR SH*&! YET they (you and ppl like you) settle for sh*&!!!
Real people dont pay for paper with gold. People like you pay for parer with gold. GET IT YET? Ill bet not,.

Just read the titles if you cant "read lots good" like Peter Griffen... http://www.popsci.co...ar-science-2014
Yet game developers cant get a proper match maker... NOT BUYING IT! NETHER SHOULD YOU!


So Umm If This:

Quote

In fact, I’d argue that in all my years of gaming the only games that have got matchmaking pretty much right for most of the time have been the Halo series. But even if only one game can manage effective matchmaking, then that’s enough to raise serious questions about why nobody else can do it.
is true. PGI is not alone in having match making whoas! And even then it sounds as though they didn't get it right every time.

#20 Blakkstar

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Posted 13 January 2015 - 06:31 AM

I'd like to see a response article the condemns modern gamers for their lazy, risk-averse, approach to games and their demand for above-average win rates for everybody based entirely upon mythical magic matchmaking algorithms that don't and can't exist.

Every game you lose has one common element: you.





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