37 replies to this topic

[VinJade]

@ JadeTImberWolf

sorry I must have misread it then, still LRMs are fine at the moment seeing as some want to make them Direct Fire weapons like the SRMs but less effective.

Clan LRMs are better than IS missiles in every way(stated in cannon) from weight/Crit Reduction, lack min range, ect.
so instead of making them worse one could argue should make them better.

while weakening the ECM's over powered effects(but then that would never win either as Lights use them to sneak behind other mechs with the broken phantom mech ability which was removed from BT for a reason).

Edited by VinJade, 17 January 2015 - 11:44 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Strikeshadow, on 17 January 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

Wow, ignorant fool, how do you expect them to share targeting information, telekinesis? They use the radio. If they had satellite coverage they would not need teammates to give them targeting information. Did you even graduate from elementary school?

Ignorant fool? For the love of god, read my post again, and read the context, before making a nonsensical post like this one. Did I NOT say they use radio in the post you're quoting

Has reading comprehension become Lostech already?

JadeTimberwolf, on 17 January 2015 - 09:38 PM, said:

Yet IS Mechs gain quirks for particular weapon systems (don't use IS Mechs so don't know all the quirks) on top of the lowering of Clan Tech capability which over-balance the scales making yet still unbalanced technology just in the opposite direction.

Three things:
1- The quirks for IS are being adjusted (only 1 or 2 cases stand out as being very strong, the rest are okay), and even with the quirks, clans still hold the edge.

2- The clans themselves are getting quirks as well.

3- Even now, with things being a bit closer to being balanced, the clans are in the lead. Especially in CW, where their energy long range advantage is damn near broken.

Knightshadowsong, on 17 January 2015 - 09:58 PM, said:

The only thing I don't like about LRM's are the LRM-60 and TAG load out. speacally with someone just raining #ell on you and Never losing the lock even if your out of LOS, I think if TAG is involved, LRM damage needs to be half as much as with a normal lock.

I think you meant NARC. TAG requires the mech spotting you to keep tracking you and maintain LOS. NARC is a pod that is attached to your mech to broadcasts your information to the enemy force, and allows LRM boats to lock on to you without need for line of sight, or any spotters to be present. (ECM counters NARC a bit btw).

The LRM damage shouldn't be adjusted, or modified (makes no sense that they deal less damage when more missiles hit you), however, your mech should display a warning or notification when you are NARC'd right now, there is no such thing. At least when ECM is around you can tell by the "Low Signal" message, but if you're NARC'd, you have no way of knowing, unless your teammates deign to tell you in chat.

VinJade, on 17 January 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

@ JadeTImberWolf

sorry I must have misread it then, still LRMs are fine at the moment seeing as some want to make them Direct Fire weapons like the SRMs but less effective.

Clan LRMs are better than IS missiles in every way(stated in cannon) from weight/Crit Reduction, lack min range, ect.
so instead of making them worse one could argue should make them better.

while weakening the ECM's over powered effects(but then that would never win either as Lights use them to sneak behind other mechs with the broken phantom mech ability which was removed from BT for a reason).

If stealth armor was added to the game, things could be improved, and tweaked in the right direction. Right now Guardian ECM is working like Angel ECM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

Three things:
1- The quirks for IS are being adjusted (only 1 or 2 cases stand out as being very strong, the rest are okay), and even with the quirks, clans still hold the edge.

2- The clans themselves are getting quirks as well.

3- Even now, with things being a bit closer to being balanced, the clans are in the lead. Especially in CW, where their energy long range advantage is damn near broken.

1- As I stated I don't use the IS Mechs so I don't know all the Quirks information, I do know that I have been out-sniped by come IS Mechs when I am using a Clan Mech with ERPPC

2- Personally I think that Quirks should be treated like Skills/Mech Skills and require Exp to be spent to activate them once you've mastered a Mech, IS/Clan doesn't matter for that idea either.

3- Range-wise yes Clans do have an advantage, yet with current maps most engagements take place 300-600m distance.

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I think you meant NARC. TAG requires the mech spotting you to keep tracking you and maintain LOS. NARC is a pod that is attached to your mech to broadcasts your information to the enemy force, and allows LRM boats to lock on to you without need for line of sight, or any spotters to be present. (ECM counters NARC a bit btw).

The LRM damage shouldn't be adjusted, or modified (makes no sense that they deal less damage when more missiles hit you), however, your mech should display a warning or notification when you are NARC'd right now, there is no such thing. At least when ECM is around you can tell by the "Low Signal" message, but if you're NARC'd, you have no way of knowing, unless your teammates deign to tell you in chat.

Agreed, diffidently need a Narc alarm of some kind.

Quote

If stealth armor was added to the game, things could be improved, and tweaked in the right direction. Right now Guardian ECM is working like Angel ECM.

While it would be interesting to battle against it is unlikely we will see Stealth Armor anytime soon, unless of course PGI decides to time skip. I am happy with ECM as it is now, other then the "phantom mech" effect which is quite annoying but not in my opinion enough of a reason to call for a nerf there are ways to combat against it.

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 18 January 2015 - 12:59 AM.

[VinJade]

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If stealth armor was added to the game, things could be improved, and tweaked in the right direction. Right now Guardian ECM is working like Angel ECM.

the thing about the SA is that it causes heat for the mech using it while also cancelling out its own system such as narc, C3s, Art IV, & BAPs.

Edited by VinJade, 18 January 2015 - 01:12 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

JadeTimberwolf, on 18 January 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

1- As I stated I don't use the IS Mechs so I don't know all the Quirks information, I do know that I have been out-sniped by come IS Mechs when I am using a Clan Mech with ERPPC

2- Personally I think that Quirks should be treated like Skills/Mech Skills and require Exp to be spent to activate them once you've mastered a Mech, IS/Clan doesn't matter for that idea either.

3- Range-wise yes Clans do have an advantage, yet with current maps most engagements take place 300-600m distance.

In CW, you won't be having an engagement within 600 meters in the first 5 minutes, unless you did something wrong. Plus, in the regular queue most battles, and by most I mean 90%, start out with long range skirmishes at 800+ meters. Sure, the battle eventually becomes a brawl at under 400 meters, but by that point, the range advantage should have done it's work.

JadeTimberwolf, on 18 January 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

While it would be interesting to battle against it is unlikely we will see Stealth Armor anytime soon, unless of course PGI decides to time skip. I am happy with ECM as it is now, other then the "phantom mech" effect which is quite annoying but not in my opinion enough of a reason to call for a nerf there are ways to combat against it.

Agreed.

VinJade, on 18 January 2015 - 01:11 AM, said:

the thing about the SA is that it causes heat for the mech using it while also cancelling out its own system such as narc, C3s, Art IV, & BAPs.

Yep, and it also takes up slots, which would balance out the cost of the invisibility (currently only 2 slots for ECM, with SA it becomes 12 for the armor + 2 for ECM = 14) it granted to it's own mech (it is toggle-able), plus it would have a risk/reward part, in that it generates 10 heat when active, meaning you fire your weapons less, but it makes you invisible to radar sensors (thermal still detects you I believe).

[VinJade]

Quote

Yep, and it also takes up slots, which would balance out the cost of the invisibility (currently only 2 slots for ECM, with SA it becomes 12 for the armor + 2 for ECM = 14) it granted to it's own mech (it is toggle-able),

Aye, that's why I like it as it uses so much space, the heat, and it only grants the ability to the mech itself and doesn't grant phantom mech ability on all mechs.

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plus it would have a risk/reward part, in that it generates 10 heat when active, meaning you fire your weapons less, but it makes you invisible to radar sensors (thermal still detects you I believe).

As far as I know that would be correct, on top of it all it would also limit what types of weapons it can house as well as equipment.

though if part of the game in the future it should only be for mechs produced by the Capellan Confederation only as it would make sense for the raven to mount it and others found with in that house.

[WDBDBloodyTriggerZ]

Strikeshadow, on 15 January 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

It's pretty simple to deal with LRM rain.

LRM boats must obtain their own targets except with the help of Narc or Tag from teammates. They can see the target on radar, but they must have Line of Sight to lock it, unless the target is Taged or Narc'd.

No more radar deprivation or retention.

Shorten the lock-on time to 1 sec for all mechs.

Make ECM ineffective closer than 400m or 600m if the LRM boat has BAP or clan probe.

LRMs become fire and forget.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOU MIND?!?!? LRMS DONT NEED A DAM BUFF THEY NEED A NERF! How about they can only lock on to you if they have a visual on you because most shower you down with missiles even though they dont have a visual on you and it is extremely unfair. Also i dont know why but even if you are not gettiing rained on your cockpit it spams your cockpit with flames and smoke and it shakes you around so you cant fight back.

Edited by WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, 18 January 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[VinJade]

Quote

ARE YOU OUT OF YOU MIND?!?!? LRMS DONT NEED A DAM BUFF YOU DUMB CHILD THEY NEED A NERF!

and this is one of the reasons VOIP will be a problem as it get much worse...

Quote

How about they can only lock on to you if they have a visual on you because most shower you down with missiles even though they dont have a visual on you and it is extremely unfair. Also i dont know why but even if you are not gettiing rained on your cockpit it spams your cockpit with flames and smoke and it shakes you around so you cant fight back.

actually LRMs don't need to be touched at all and left alone.

only reason someone doesn't like the LRMs is because they are hammered by them.
I not only use LRMs but I am always hammered by them as well yet you don't see me all hot and bothered over it.

also making them direct fire weapons is just making them into long range SRMs which is silly.
LRMs are for long range indirect fire.

if anything ECMs need a nerf as they are over powered and broken that it is not funny.
doing anything to them would make them more or less worthless as I stated before the are one of the weakest long range weapons out there.

Edited by VinJade, 18 January 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

VinJade, on 18 January 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

though if part of the game in the future it should only be for mechs produced by the Capellan Confederation only as it would make sense for the raven to mount it and others found with in that house.

In all fairness the other houses steal the technology shortly thereafter (I wanna say, within 5 years or so)

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 18 January 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

ARE YOU OUT OF YOU MIND?!?!? LRMS DONT NEED A DAM BUFF YOU DUMB CHILD THEY NEED A NERF! How about they can only lock on to you if they have a visual on you because most shower you down with missiles even though they dont have a visual on you and it is extremely unfair. Also i dont know why but even if you are not gettiing rained on your cockpit it spams your cockpit with flames and smoke and it shakes you around so you cant fight back.

I don't usually say this, but YOU are the only one to blame when you are hit by LRMs.

LRMs are the easiest weapon to avoid, and relies almost completely on the actions, and level of play, of the target.

If LRMs are bothering you, then you have the following to counter them:
1- Around 5 seconds of heads up since you get a loud "INCOMING MISSILE" message, both visually, and audibly.
2- Slow projectile speed allowing you to relocate/hide
3- AMS. Some mechs mount up to 3 AMS on them, allowing for an impressive curtain of cover against them.
4- ECM. Absolutely negates almost any possibility of being locked on, let alone being hit by them
5- Basic, indestructible, invulnerable, unbreakable, cover.
6- Radar Deprivation. Even with the best LRM modules, they have you on their sensors for 1.5 seconds after they lose LOS.

You've been playing for just over a year now. LRMs should not be a challenge for you as much.

In above average play you practically never see them, and when they are present, there is enough AMS to relegate them to useless. In higher play no one even needs AMS, since we just use cover extensively.

No other weapon system in the game gives you a heads up that you are being shot, and no other weapon system in the game (Other than Streaks who only have ECM) has hard counters. Only LRMs do.

LRMs are an easy to use/hard to master weapon, and that comes from the fact that despite the pilot's skill, it really depends on the target.

EDIT: Added point 6. Radar Dep. Can't believe I forgot about it.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 19 January 2015 - 12:24 PM.

[JadeTimberwolf]

IraqiWalker, on 18 January 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

*snip*
You've been playing for just over a year now. LRMs should not be a challenge for you as much.
*snip*

Your whole post is basically what I was wanting to say to him only better thought out. However this line here is the most beautiful.

I played a bit back in Beta but do to reasons I had to stop (had to build a new computer) finally came back a couple of months ago so I am a bit behind the curve and even I do not find LRMs challenging to dodge/avoid even when I am in the trial Warhawk (assault mech). I just find them annoying when I suddenly find myself being hit by a volley of them without warning (happens maybe once ever 5-7 matches on average).

I personally like to use LRMs and I tend to fire and forget because I use them for suppressive fire while I am advancing with my team. I have regulated them to that roll because of how much more effective ECM and AMS is than I would expect.

[Strikeshadow]

IraqiWalker, on 17 January 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

Ignorant fool? For the love of god, read my post again, and read the context, before making a nonsensical post like this one. Did I NOT say they use radio in the post you're quoting

Has reading comprehension become Lostech already?

I'll spell it out for you just to help enlighten you, don't know why I should, but whatever. Radar targeting information cannot be shared via radio. The bandwidths are different and to share radar requires expensive and sophisticated wireless communication equipment. I.E. the C3, Narc, Tag type equipment.

This is common knowledge to anybody with a rudimentary education in the US, hence the title "ignorant".

[Strikeshadow]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 18 January 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

ARE YOU OUT OF YOU MIND?!?!? LRMS DONT NEED A DAM BUFF THEY NEED A NERF! How about they can only lock on to you if they have a visual on you because most shower you down with missiles even though they dont have a visual on you and it is extremely unfair. Also i dont know why but even if you are not gettiing rained on your cockpit it spams your cockpit with flames and smoke and it shakes you around so you cant fight back.

Line of sight means visual.... I agree with you, but you need to learn some terms...

[JadeTimberwolf]

Strikeshadow, on 19 January 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

I'll spell it out for you just to help enlighten you, don't know why I should, but whatever. Radar targeting information cannot be shared via radio. The bandwidths are different and to share radar requires expensive and sophisticated wireless communication equipment. I.E. the C3, Narc, Tag type equipment.

This is common knowledge to anybody with a rudimentary education in the US, hence the title "ignorant".

Have you ever played the Tabletop or the Paper and Pencil RPG? In the Mech Combat rules for those all you need in order to fire at an opponent indirectly is for a friendly unit to have line of sight without C3, Narc or Tag. Those items serve to improve accuracy and reduce spread allowing for more missiles to hit.

It is part of the TTS/AFCS that all Mechs have without having to pay extra or use up extra crit slots beyond their sensor/computer systems

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 19 January 2015 - 03:21 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Strikeshadow, on 19 January 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

I'll spell it out for you just to help enlighten you, don't know why I should, but whatever. Radar targeting information cannot be shared via radio. The bandwidths are different and to share radar requires expensive and sophisticated wireless communication equipment. I.E. the C3, Narc, Tag type equipment.

This is common knowledge to anybody with a rudimentary education in the US, hence the title "ignorant".

You know what? You're right. I shouldn't have used Radio. I was trying to simplify it for you, but I should have used Wireless communication. The basic stock equipment that all mechs have default.

C3, TAG, and NARC, all work in different ways, and serve different purposes.

TAG, allows for laser guidance to the missiles. NARC allows for radar locks for missiles. C3 is targeting assistance for aiming. None of these three work the same way. Two of them are specifically for LRM support, to make indirect fire even more accurate. While the third is aiming assistance, so it benefits direct fire more. If we are talking in a realistic manner.

BTW, if you had bothered to read about these mechanisms and how they work in BT, we wouldn't be having half this discussion. Also, TAG doesn't share targeting information with the LRM mech. It paints a target for the missiles fired indirectly to home in on. It's a technology we already have. The missiles themselves have the sensors needed to guide them towards whatever is tagged. Only reason we have it sharing locks in this game is because we can't open the battle grid and start bombarding a specific grid blindly, while TAG does the guidance.

Now for C3:

You know how turrets show us target mechs, but give us no status on them, such as hull integrity, or what weapons they have? That's how regular mech sensors are supposed to work in BT. While C3 equipped mechs would share the mech's condition, which sections are weakened and which ones aren't, plus things like it's weapons paylod. All our mechs have C3i in them, weightless, and slotless. However, that's what C3 does. It also counters ECM, but I don't remember how it's supposed to do that mechanically. I think it's because it uses beam communication, instead of signal communication.


Narc broadcasts a signal that allows missiles to gain radar lock onto the pod itself, not the mech, the pod.

[IraqiWalker]

Silversynch, on 20 January 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

...Wow. It isn't even about the original idea. Too bad I had a good modification.

• Missiles are now one projectile, but...
  
• Have data. Specifically, an array of all the missiles still undetonated.
  
• The cluster of missiles would have several Hitbox sections corresponding to their missile in the array.
  
• When the hitbox hits something, that missile blows up.
  
• The missile array always continues until all of it's missiles are detonated.

In this fashion, the missiles are now one projectile without removing their ability to graze objects.

That's how the LRMs currently work anyways.

[Silversynch]

IraqiWalker, on 20 January 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

That's how the LRMs currently work anyways.

Wait.

This topic had a similar title to the one I wanted to post in...

[ABORT]

[Koniving]

Egomane, on 16 January 2015 - 01:44 AM, said:

LRMs always were capable of indirect firing without C3, TAG, NARC or other means of help. Special equipment had no role in it, except for maybe improving the indirect fire modifeiers or result. C3 for example, is pretty much useless for indirect firing LRMs.

All it ever needed in Battletech history, was a spotter. That could have been an airborne VToL some 5 kilometers away with an uninterupted line of sight, or a single infantry man, the last of his company, sitting somewhere in a bush. So there is no lore breaking anything in the current implementation.

There was exceptionally low accuracy in firing long range indirect fire (as well as any indirect fire at all that didn't involve C3).

To me, this reflects less of a SOFLAM scenario (I have a spotting beam that tells you exactly where the enemy is; i.e. TAG) and more of a "Enemy at grid coordinates Zero Six Eight Seven Niner Fife, heading 289 degrees at speed 64.8 kph" scenario. Do recall that there is 10 seconds in a turn, and the spotting unit must be actively spotting which required a penalty to the spotter's own ability to fire (reflecting that he must be concentrating on something, like giving radio information).

This in turn, reflects more of a target space on battlegrid and fire scenario, leading to said inaccuracy (because rather than targeting an actual mech with a lock, it was more guess-work based on target's last known location, heading, and speed and trying to hit where the target would be assuming nothing changes. This would also give 'dead fire' options, too, such as being able to indirect fire specific locations).

Developing that, would in turn, pave the groundwork for Mech Mortars to arrive into MWO, which unlike LRMs were not targeted by enemy AMS and work in a similar manner to what I just described for indirect fire LRMs.

Edited by Koniving, 20 January 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Silversynch, on 20 January 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Wait.

This topic had a similar title to the one I wanted to post in...

[ABORT]

LOL, very understandable.