729 replies to this topic

[-Natural Selection-]

Mickey Knoxx, on 16 January 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

DERP is not backing any advances into CGB.

I feel that ^^this^^ is all that needed to be said.


At this time Merc units can come and go as they please.

If they come with intentions of being useful and coordinating they IMO will take it upon themselves to communicate with the community.

If they come with intentions and take actions that we do not agree with, we should go to them and express our opinions on the situation. Then letting all parties involved know we do not support their actions.

Currently that is all that can and needs to be done IMO. When the times comes we may need the help of merc units. When we seek them out, we do not need the opinions of a couple who feel as though they speak for everyone to tarnish the rep of the whole in those circles.

[Peter2000]

We did *NOT* come in to dictate terms. But CSJ has exactly two offensive fronts (and no active defensive ones). I don't at all see the point in avoiding the second front after the first is effectively won. Kurita consistently gives up on our border once we push the counter high, late. When we so much as suggest opening another front, so we can actually play CW for the faction we're contracted with, we get accused of being evil treaty-breaking merc scum (despite the fact that we make a huge impact on the "real" front, and got our tags up on an ex-Kurita planet the other day).

Clearly, "CSJ" (or Smoke Alliance, or whatever you call yourselves) doesn't want us. Fine, your loss.

I will be lobbying 228th leadership to leave CSJ at our earliest convenience, and never return. Perhaps even show you (and the galaxy) what your uncooperativity and self-importance cost you by joining Kurita and focusing your front. In the meanwhile, I will continue to fight and crush enemies, because that's what I do (something I thought Jaguars were all about?).

/thread

Edited by Peter2000, 19 January 2015 - 07:50 AM.

[Noesis]

Which is interesting since after speaking with Deadfire yesterday he only wanted to express mutual concerns and amicable relations with this community.

Though he also said Peter that you didn't speak for 228 and should not be given too much credance as speaking for their interests.

This however seemingly a recommendation with those talks with Deafire that the Smoke Alliance announces the units involved and the representation to the alliance with the contacts for those organisations. This then helping future interests coming to the CSJ community to contact in advance and perhaps liase with interests here for better beneficial and mutual concerns.

A small change in helping to educate who are members of various alliances and connected interests only then helpful in case missadventure from individuals who are unaware to the current state of affairs or perhaps less prepared with these things can at least better consider diplomacy options (at their discretion) even prior to stepping foot in CSJ space. Though to some extent even if this has been indicated in the stickied Operations posts to some extent I do agree with DF here and would think this only helpful to indicate.

Your opinions therefore Peter2k seem in opposition to what Deadfire indicated, and if anything the amicable conclusion of those talks where more a point of miss-adventure from ISMA that could have been handled better with the local community. This even whilst continuing to recognise that we could not impede ISMA's intentions or actions in CSJ space though in the overall scheme of things this then beneficial to Clan actions against the IS despite perhaps not as directly focussed as CSJ units.

It would be a bold move then for 228 to change its tune of not wanting to build relations with various alliances in the community despite these recent events. Though attacking CSJ space from Kurita would of course make intentions more clear to see based on these actions from ISMA members if this where to be ratified by them.

I do of course only speak for the Dark Born in defence of interests for the Smoke Alliance. But the talks indicated by Deadfire where more focussed on attempting to restore and build bridges as opposed to tearing them down. This intent then also relayed to the Smoke Alliance for review.

Edited by Noesis, 19 January 2015 - 08:12 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

Peter2000, on 19 January 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Clearly, "CSJ" (or Smoke Alliance, or whatever you call yourselves) doesn't want us. Fine, your loss.

Man, I think everyone is perceiving the comments and views of people representing 1 or 2 units as those of everyone. And the one stomping around the hardest is only representative of a unit consisting of less than a dozen people.

DERPs understanding of SA was to help coordinate attacks a defenses. And thus far is about all it has amounted to. There has been no kind of communication of group decisions on any kind of diplomacy among the group. It seems as though some have opinion and lean towards communicating them as the opinions of the whole.

We are here to play, battle, and try to coordinate and be as effective as a community as we can (while having fun). Not get into a bunch of high school BS drama.

I have expressed our displeasure with the friction this has caused and if this is the continued ways of some of this group we will have no part of it.

Edited by Mickey Knoxx, 19 January 2015 - 08:08 AM.

[TheSilken]

Technically only the Smoke Adders can speak for the Smoke Alliance since Lukoi was made the head. Any other unit's post are actually only them speaking for themselves and not the group.

Edit: I missed the plot completely my bad

Edited by TheSilkenPimp, 19 January 2015 - 08:52 AM.

[Cimarb]

Stiletto, on 18 January 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

I just like to see you fight with each other. Hopefully the offended mercs ditch the dirty clanners and defend the IS. Frankly, you shouldn't even be allowed to use mercs.

Frankly, we do not like being forced to use mercs, either. Then again, if you do not have a permanent faction contract, you are technically a Merc currently, so a huge majority of units, regardless of whether they consider themselves mercs or not, are.

I cannot wait for logistics to get here, so we can have some sort of incentive for different types of units and significant reasons to play them as such. Until then, try not to take things so seriously.

[Lukoi Banacek]

TheSilkenPimp, on 19 January 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

Technically only the Smoke Adders can speak for the Smoke Alliance since Lukoi was made the head. Any other unit's post are actually only them speaking for themselves and not the group.

Wait NOPE.

I am not the head of the Smoke Alliance, nor are the Smoke Adders.

Mickey is correct on this. Its a group of units who got together and decided to reach a consensus on certain things.

Given the size of our faction at the beginning, we elected to avoid multiple fronts, as fighting over in DCMS and defending the occassional FRR incursion seemed to max our manpower.

We discussed the super-group concept ala MercStar Alliance and decided to forgo it.

We coordinate for defenses after some tough lessons learned on splitting forces and how fast DCMS units could surge if ignored too long.

We let each other know what nights a team might not be on due to internal events or tournament play.

We promote the use of a centralized TS that many of our pugs come to first now, because they know they will be included in our teams for those dropa without complaint or drama, and thus they Re more willing to LISTEN to our gameplan rather than,run,off solo.

We didnt vote on a board of govenors, choose a leader or a spokesperson and likely will not.

This thread started off like some sort of RP thing, got way ahead of itself implying Smoke Alliance is some authority figure in CSJ, and had some misinformation sprinkled in (for my part of Ive apologized once already ) and has grown into this,ridiculous back and forth argument about merc units and their goodness or badness.

Liie Mickey said...the,simple truth is this....mercs are free to come and go as they please, per PGI design. I appreciate their,teams adding,to the faction success. Like many things we dont always agree with everything units want to do and vice versa. Thus, the Smoke Alliance agreed not to support any opening of a CGB front. Thats not denigrating mercs, thats simply not supporting THOSE that wish to fight CGB.

When Mercs decide to leave, the long term units must deal with what they left behind. We are small now but will be smaller still when they leave. Thus, we dont support the attack CGB ag3nda. There is no need for drama on the topic. QQ and others can fight who they can reach while attached to CSJ. Most of us choose not support them.

Doesnt need all of this drama either way.

[Lukoi Banacek]

P.s. no worries Pimp, mistakes happen

[TheSilken]

Haha thanks. Don't forget to claim a team for Clan Football Lukoi. Only 7 more Jaguar slots.

[Peter2000]

Noesis, on 19 January 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

Which is interesting since after speaking with Deadfire yesterday he only wanted to express mutual concerns and amicable relations with this community.

Though he also said Peter that you didn't speak for 228 and should not be given too much credance as speaking for their interests.

This however seemingly a recommendation with those talks with Deafire that the Smoke Alliance announces the units involved and the representation to the alliance with the contacts for those organisations. This then helping future interests coming to the CSJ community to contact in advance and perhaps liase with interests here for better beneficial and mutual concerns.

A small change in helping to educate who are members of various alliances and connected interests only then helpful in case missadventure from individuals who are unaware to the current state of affairs or perhaps less prepared with these things can at least better consider diplomacy options (at their discretion) even prior to stepping foot in CSJ space. Though to some extent even if this has been indicated in the stickied Operations posts to some extent I do agree with DF here and would think this only helpful to indicate.

Your opinions therefore Peter2k seem in opposition to what Deadfire indicated, and if anything the amicable conclusion of those talks where more a point of miss-adventure from ISMA that could have been handled better with the local community. This even whilst continuing to recognise that we could not impede ISMA's intentions or actions in CSJ space though in the overall scheme of things this then beneficial to Clan actions against the IS despite perhaps not as directly focussed as CSJ units.

It would be a bold move then for 228 to change its tune of not wanting to build relations with various alliances in the community despite these recent events. Though attacking CSJ space from Kurita would of course make intentions more clear to see based on these actions from ISMA members if this where to be ratified by them.

I do of course only speak for the Dark Born in defence of interests for the Smoke Alliance. But the talks indicated by Deadfire where more focussed on attempting to restore and build bridges as opposed to tearing them down. This intent then also relayed to the Smoke Alliance for review.

I never purported to speak for 228th. Only for myself, with a 228th perspective.

If deadfire wants to patch things up, that's his prerogative.

But let me be unambiguous on one point: this thread got started (or restarted) primarily to criticize 228th for (in the words of many) being traitors to the CSJ cause because after we helped secure your Kurita objective, we suggested actually DOING something else, too (on the only other offensive front, since the defensive ones are inactive), and moreover, naming us as part of a grand conspiracy with QQ. If these were not official positions of CSJ/SA/whatever leadership, that was never made clear. I don't apologize for calling the people in this thread out as trying to shove their short-sighted uninformed combat-avoiding "strategy" down the throats of Mercs that came to help you pick up planets.

[Marauder3D]

As a small guy perspective, representing no one but myself: Mercs are part of this game. They should be able to attack whoever they want, so long as they are clearly wearing merc tags. If they want to attack CGB, so long as it is clear they are merc units, like the 228th, why not?

Didn't we lose 3-4 SJ worlds to MS early in the invasion? If we didn't get our panties in a bunch about Santander V and other worlds that were once ours, why should the GB care what our mercs do on our behalf?

Seems like much ado about nothing, but w/e.

[Cimarb]

Marauder3D, on 19 January 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

As a small guy perspective, representing no one but myself: Mercs are part of this game. They should be able to attack whoever they want, so long as they are clearly wearing merc tags. If they want to attack CGB, so long as it is clear they are merc units, like the 228th, why not?

Didn't we lose 3-4 SJ worlds to MS early in the invasion? If we didn't get our panties in a bunch about Santander V and other worlds that were once ours, why should the GB care what our mercs do on our behalf?

Seems like much ado about nothing, but w/e.

I agree it is getting blown a bit out of proportion by some people, but the issue is that those mercs are actually speaking for the faction as a whole because there is no way to tell WHO is attacking unless you actually get in a match with them. I am hoping that PGI fixes this, soon, but until we can see who is doing what, or restrict who joins our faction, this will continue to be a significant problem.

There is also something to be said about playing subversion tactics, such as fighting behind enemy lines in salvaged mechs and camo colors. It is a very lore-based approach to warfare, actually, but the current system makes it more of an issue than a benefit to the play, for most people.

[Lukoi Banacek]

No, we lost one to STS (if not mistaken) and actually it DID start a lot of rumblings but as it was largely EU units involved in the back and forth, it eventually got sorted out.

My unit didnt contract until after that happened and we looked at that issue as one example as to why the Smoke Alliance idea could be valuable.

Rereading the opener of this thread I can see a few things...one, it comes of like PH is,sp3aking for some central CSJ authority. He was not. It was meant as RP, given his other postings, but obviously in agreement with the Alliance consensus.

From what I can tell it doesnt badmouth any unit,in particular.

Whether mercs consider our point of view on the CGB front short sighted or not is on them. Doesnt require insults or bad blood. Personally, I think its horribly short sighted to fight a larger neighbor when the mercs promoting the idea are very likely to leave, leaving the more long term units holding the leftovers. Especially since there is no demonstrable benefit to doing so in terms of the game's current ruleset....the invasion of Terra is the stated goal, not simply gathering up planets. Bad enough the algorithm is currently taking us NORTH instead of towards Terra, there is no reason to add an avenue thru CGB to the list imo.

[Noesis]

Peter2000, on 19 January 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

I never purported to speak for 228th. Only for myself, with a 228th perspective.

If deadfire wants to patch things up, that's his prerogative.

But let me be unambiguous on one point: this thread got started (or restarted) primarily to criticize 228th for (in the words of many) being traitors to the CSJ cause because after we helped secure your Kurita objective, we suggested actually DOING something else, too (on the only other offensive front, since the defensive ones are inactive), and moreover, naming us as part of a grand conspiracy with QQ. If these were not official positions of CSJ/SA/whatever leadership, that was never made clear. I don't apologize for calling the people in this thread out as trying to shove their short-sighted uninformed combat-avoiding "strategy" down the throats of Mercs that came to help you pick up planets.

Thankyou for voicing your concerns Peter. But this has been addressed and repsonded to already and has been understood and acknowldeged by your Leader. This with a view of helping things with indicate the SA presence and associations, which is under review as a suggestion.

In fairness however due to this ongoing steadfastness in opinions raised despite efforts to help you understand these matters in this thread it does not seem to be acomplishing anything of positive intent with yourself and how you portray relations with the SA group. As such I will prefer at this point to discuss matters connected with your unit with Deadfire and not assume that the words you present reflect that units concerns at this time. This echoed in discussion with DF as mentioned. Peace out.

[Peter2000]

xMarshallx, on 19 January 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

This is why I personally hope QQ never contracts back with CSJ.



Notice the time left in attack is close to ceasefire, however, it was like that well before that time but I neglected to take a screen shot at that point. This is still a video game, but the politics within CSJ would rather deny their players a chance to actually play the game instead of hitting one of the few available lanes open to them. Wonder how many planets CSJ would take if there were multiple merc teams who decided to go Kurita and how much assistance they would receive from CGB if that were to happen? Hmm.. maybe that's what is needed to open your eyes to see that CGB doesn't have your interests in mind. I do have to give credit to CGB for being an ultimate puppet master and even CSJ for holding strong on their convictions. War is hell and I look forward to see what happens after CSJ runs out all of their unwanted mercs.

Yep this is what I was getting at. I figured this picture was common knowledge, but the visual aid helps those who don't know.

[Prussian Havoc]

Lukoi Banacek, on 19 January 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

...Rereading the opener of this thread I can see a few things...one, it comes of like PH is,sp3aking for some central CSJ authority. He was not. It was meant as RP, given his other postings, but obviously in agreement with the Alliance consensus.

From what I can tell it doesnt badmouth any unit,in particular.

Whether mercs consider our point of view on the CGB front short sighted or not is on them. Doesnt require insults or bad blood. Personally, I think its horribly short sighted to fight a larger neighbor when the mercs promoting the idea are very likely to leave, leaving the more long term units holding the leftovers. Especially since there is no demonstrable benefit to doing so in terms of the game's current ruleset....the invasion of Terra is the stated goal, not simply gathering up planets. Bad enough the algorithm is currently taking us NORTH instead of towards Terra, there is no reason to add an avenue thru CGB to the list imo.

As the OP and caretaker my intention in starting this thread was and remains twofold:

1. To inform CSJ Solos and Small Units, not yet a member of the Smoke Jaguar Alliance of a perceived threat to the CSJ peace agreement with Clan Ghost Bear. Some gamers do look for information but not finding any on the forums just (and rightly so) take ANY opportunity to reinforce a Smoke Jaguar Attack. No few of these stalwart gamers are in many ways the backbone of CSJ as they represent the CSJ COMP gamers of tomorrow. It was these forum-dwelling gamers I remain intent on informing with this thread.

2. To use this thread as a means to communicate to Clan Ghost Bear my understanding of the then current situation. All too often simple miscommunications (or lack of communication) leads to a broken peace agreement, enduring enmity on both sides and an endless waste of resources trying to regain some semblance of order. I hope to have contributed to Clan Ghost Bear forum reader understanding of the still evolving situation with regard to short-term-contract-Mercenary UNSANCTIONED attacks on CGB... it is a CSJ and CGB public service.

Also, ake a closer look at the OP. It does not name QQ or 228 what-so-ever. I have gamed repeatedly with both Units in their TeamSpeaks and against Kurita since they contracted with CSJ. To a man and woman they are great gamers looking to enjoy not just the game mechanics of MWO but the respect, admiration and truth be told, the no-little-fear their Units compel when they take the MWO field. I respect and admire these gamers and know that Clan Smoke Jaguar is lucky to have them if only for 14 and. 7'days respectively.

Others contributed the information, and misinformation, concerning the UNSANCTIONED aggression against CGB. I understand the hazards of first reports though and 50/50 accuracy is about all that can be hoped for in these circumstances.

The important consideration is and continues to be communication to all audiences as accurate a perception as possibl

I have been Clan Smoke Jaguar from hour one of day one. My sole interest was, is and will remain with Smoke Jaguar. As I author threads here and in the Smoke Jaguar Alliance internal forums, I shall continue to contribute toward CSJ current stability, future viability and an ever-healthier gaming community. Gamin in MWO CW as well as advocating for CSJ on various forums is how I choose to contribute as we all move forward with PGI's Beta CW.

Peter2000, on 19 January 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

...But let me be unambiguous on one point: this thread got started (or restarted) primarily to criticize 228th for (in the words of many) being traitors to the CSJ cause because after we helped secure your Kurita objective, we suggested actually DOING something else, too (on the only other offensive front, since the defensive ones are inactive), and moreover, naming us as part of a grand conspiracy with QQ. If these were not official positions of CSJ/SA/whatever leadership, that was never made clear. I don't apologize for calling the people in this thread out as trying to shove their short-sighted uninformed combat-avoiding "strategy" down the throats of Mercs that came to help you pick up planets.

I am the OP and the only one who can categorically state "how this thread got started."

I am sure you see the truth in this statement.

The OP informs, as stated in the above portion of this particular post. And it doesn't mention your Unit, 228 until misinformation is contributed further into the thread.

Now here in this post I am fulfilling my "caretaker" responsibilities to those that have viewed it more than 5000 times. Just as I stated on 228TeamSpeak during the three matches against Kurita I shared with Deadfire and 228's superb 9-man team yesterday, "I appreciate and acknowledge 228's exceptional contribution to CSJ.

CSJ's map (and the two worlds now tagged "228") give mute testimony to the exceptional weight of gaming excellence performed over the weekend by 228 while serving under a Clan Smoke Jaguar Banner.

Great job and again you all have my thanks.

Cimarb, on 19 January 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

I agree it is getting blown a bit out of proportion by some people, but the issue is that those mercs are actually speaking for the faction as a whole because there is no way to tell WHO is attacking unless you actually get in a match with them. I am hoping that PGI fixes this, soon, but until we can see who is doing what, or restrict who joins our faction, this will continue to be a significant problem.

There is also something to be said about playing subversion tactics, such as fighting behind enemy lines in salvaged mechs and camo colors. It is a very lore-based approach to warfare, actually, but the current system makes it more of an issue than a benefit to the play, for most people.

It has always been the nature of Public Oratory to give rise to strong voices...

Some in support...

Some as counter-argument...

The back and forth gives evidence of just how strong and vital the MWO community really is. Threads like this reassure me that the money and time I have invested in PGI's creation will remain viable for months if not years to come. And I look forward to each day's opportunity to game and contribute to forums.

"Flames" "Grieving" go hand in hand with legitimate and well-articulated discussion, dialogue and debate.

And THAT takes our MWO combat simulator game to an exciting level in my opinion.

Thank you for your contributions to this thread.



And finally to clarify my OP.
Please see the last line... I continue to welcome and look forward to your questions, comments and concerns.

Thanks for playing our game. Without you, it would be that much less of a community and that much harder to get GG.

Prussian Havoc, on 16 January 2015 - 01:40 AM, said:

For reasons entirely their own, it was noted yesterday by Twitch feed that a CSJ-tagged Mercenary Unit was attacking the Clan Ghost Bear world of Byesville.

All Clan Smoke Jaguar Solos and Small Units should understand that by way of agreement, CSJ does not attack CGB and vice-a-versa. This agreement continues to benefit both Clans as it permits Clan focus to remain along the highest threat borders.

In other words, at no time should a loyal Smoke Jaguar join an UNSANCTIONED attack queue for the Clan Ghost Bear planet of Byesville.

Indeed, I make a priority of dropping to the defense of Clan Ghost Bear worlds, during lulls in CSJ activity. I won't attack them now.

If you have any questions, comments or concerns please let me know

[Jaroth Corbett]

xMarshallx, on 19 January 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

This is why I personally hope QQ never contracts back with CSJ.



Notice the time left in attack is close to ceasefire, however, it was like that well before that time but I neglected to take a screen shot at that point. This is still a video game, but the politics within CSJ would rather deny their players a chance to actually play the game instead of hitting one of the few available lanes open to them. Wonder how many planets CSJ would take if there were multiple merc teams who decided to go Kurita and how much assistance they would receive from CGB if that were to happen? Hmm.. maybe that's what is needed to open your eyes to see that CGB doesn't have your interests in mind. I do have to give credit to CGB for being an ultimate puppet master and even CSJ for holding strong on their convictions. War is hell and I look forward to see what happens after CSJ runs out all of their unwanted mercs.

Give credit to what? You still talking that nonsense? We are focused on our invasion corridor. We never tried to dictate the actions of CSJ. We ALL had to deal with improper attack corridors & mercs doing what they want. We never had a grand design to do such & such to the Jaguars. How low can you sink?

[Prussian Havoc]

Jaroth Corbett, on 19 January 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

Give credit to what? You still talking that nonsense? We are focused on our invasion corridor. We never tried to dictate the actions of CSJ. We ALL had to deal with improper attack corridors & mercs doing what they want. We never had a grand design to do such & such to the Jaguars. How low can you sink?

I am impressed by your history with BattleTech as outlined in you forum profile. You have clearly achieved a position of authority and respect within your Unit and Faction. Thank you for your many contributions to this thread.

[Vlad Ward]

Peter2000, on 19 January 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Yep this is what I was getting at. I figured this picture was common knowledge, but the visual aid helps those who don't know.

Pretty much. I just walked into public queue at that point, and immediately ran into five other CSJ units all farming pubs because there were zero CW options available.

I wouldn't bother with Kurita, though. On a relative scale, CSJ RP'ers seem to be significantly more tame about "unsanctioned attacks" than Kurita's RP'ers. What's worse, the few units they do have are so terrified by their planet count and inactive player base that they refuse to do anything but defend against CSJ, and even then we all know they barely - if ever - show up. It seems like many of the Kuritan units, similar to the Wolves, have convinced themselves that CW Beta = Map Reset and their horrendous losses won't matter in a few weeks.

Granted, pretty much every faction unit is afraid of the other faction boogeymen at this point in time. CSJ is scared that they won't be able to hold a line against CGB without the support of the abnormally large number of merc units they have at the moment. Meanwhile, the abnormally large number of merc units are starting to get bored of sitting on their thumbs because CSJ isn't utilizing them properly, making them more likely to ship out when their contract expires. It seems to me like it would be a win-win for CSJ to start wrecking CGB, while sending space bacon and nachos to the merc units to ensure they have enough pilots to keep the front moving in the right direction. That's just me, though.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Prussian Havoc, on 19 January 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

I am impressed by your history with BattleTech as outlined in you forum profile. You have clearly achieved a position of authority and respect within your Unit and Faction. Thank you for your many contributions to this thread.

Gratitude trothkin. May the Great Father & the Founder guide your steps.