31 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

So I'm trying to write a story - two, in fact, in a series that ideally would include ten. Space sci-fi, with a time setting and technology level at about 3000 A.D. The protagonists are a female space badass seeking vengeance and a male space badass looking out to his gravely ill son. Both of them have their own agenda, but both need money, thus they become space bounty hunters. Because space. Also they might or might not fall in love with each other.

Now, the thing is, this is literally my first attempt to write, like, anything. I do have a general idea of the character development, but I totally lack the experience to solidify and fine-sculpt them. The male protagonist is easier though - I'm male, I have a rather decent dad and I could use various other characters like Joel from The Last of Us or Max Payne as references. But the female character is much harder to create. On one hand I want her to be badass, but not too badass that makes her basically a man, like Ripley (nothing against Alien, but admit it, she was so hardcore that we could easily replace her with a young boy or such.). On the other hand I want her to be feminine, to be genuinely lovable, but I don't want to fall into any male-chauvinism cliche. And my lack of experience doesn't help, either.

So, any suggestions? I'm guessing most of us here have read their fair share of space-badass stories, so any direction-pointing would be helpful.

[Shlkt]

Helmstif, on 01 August 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

On one hand I want her to be badass, but not too badass that makes her basically a man, like Ripley (nothing against Alien, but admit it, she was so hardcore that we could easily replace her with a young boy or such.).

Trivia: In an earlier version of the script Ripley was a man.

[CeeKay Boques]

Don't ask here. You now have a legitimate, heartfelt, excellent pick up line. Take it forth, and harvest the knowledge of women with this request. If you listen well enough, one might ask for another date and time to further discuss your project.

[Hex Pallett]

Technoviking, on 01 August 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

Don't ask here. You now have a legitimate, heartfelt, excellent pick up line. Take it forth, and harvest the knowledge of women with this request. If you listen well enough, one might ask for another date and time to further discuss your project.

Not that it helped my purpose but it made me audibly lol.

Do think I need to shorten that to pick up girls tho....

Edited by Helmstif, 01 August 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[1453 R]

As a longtime writer who's done a lot of work with female characters, the best advice I can give you is to not try to make your female lead a womanly woman of +5 female. Just let her be her.

Just write the story, and let your characters do what works naturally for them. Do you go through situations during your life constantly stopping to think “Wait…am I handling this in a sufficiently masculine manner, giving the proper impression of manly strength and independence?” Heh, unless you’re a twatmuffin, probably not. Most of us don’t think about our gender much at all unless we’re in a situation where it matters. Which, usually, is only when there’s folks we’re interested in practicing our pick-up lines on.

Your work will certainly be rough while you’re starting out, and some folks may razz your junk about making your female lead too mannish, but you also have to remember that some folks will razz your junk about that kind of thing no matter what you do. Strawman feminists will be strawman feminists, there’s no pleasing them. Heh…the other thing to remember is that the woman is a badass space bounty hunter. She’s hardly going to be a delicate flower of femininity, and will share many of the characteristics of the male lead simply because the two of them are in the same profession with similar skillsets and (professional) backgrounds. It has nothing to do with you being a chauvinist or a sexist jackwad or any of that.

Yeah, you’ll misstep from time to time. Everybody does, that’s part of the learning experience. Don’t let it get you down, and when someone offers you advice – actual advice, not MWO Forums advice – pay attention and try to see why they said what they said. And most importantly, have fun with it. If you’re not as eager to hear the story you’re writing as the most fervent of your readers is, why the hell’re you writing it down in the first place, eh?

[DEMAX51]

In all seriousness though, don't try to write a good female character, just try to write a good character.

Edited by DEMAX51, 01 August 2014 - 11:09 AM.

[Voivode]

As a writer myself, I'll say this for writing a character of a different sex/ethnicity/religion than yourself:

Decide everything about that character that doesn't have to do with their gender/ethnicity/religion before touching anything that does have to do with it.

What does this character do for a living? If its something more advanced than driving a garbage truck, what sorts of things did this character have to do to gain the skills needed to do this job (med school? military training? a doctorate or a masters degree? etc...) and what does the process behind getting these things say about the type of person this character is (med school is long and arduous in a more mental way, military training is long and arduous in a more physical way)?

Where is this character from? Does that pair well with their lifestyle or is it a point of contention (a doctor of psychology might have a disconnect with their agrarian family, or a career soldier might not jive well with an aristocratic family)?

What does this individual want? What are the goals they have, where do they want to be? Is their life going in the direction they want it to or the opposite?

How did they end up in the circumstances of your story? Just as important as how they ended up in these circumstances, what's keeping them there? Most assuredly, there will be a point where the character will have an opportunity to bail on the primary conflict, but will choose to stay. Why did they make that choice?

After you've molded all that, go ahead and slap some lady parts onto the character you've made. A few feminine characteristics to accent the individual you've built will be better than trying to build an individual out of a few feminine characteristics.

Edited by Voivode, 01 August 2014 - 11:18 AM.

[SirDubDub]

First off, and I hope it goes without saying. DO NOT ONLY GO TO THE MECHWARRIOR COMMUNITY FOR ADVICE ON FEMALE CHARACTERS.

While the mechwarrior / battletech community is excellent at fact-checking, extrapolation of fictional technologies from real-world ones, and lore consistency, the fiction of the battletech franchise is notoriously bad at depicting any character who isn't a white straight male, and the community (myself included) has a tendency to accept schlock without critical thought.. Don't fall into this trap.

With that in mind, here are a few ideas for developing characters and writing.

1.Try to find some sort of collaborative writing community to participate in. Find people with similar (or preferably superior) skill levels from a variety of possible backgrounds and genre interests to work with. This has helped me immensely with my own work. Look for people who can help you when you're stuck, can identify and describe quality, and will not hold back with the punches when you mess up.

2. Practice, observe, iterate, admit your faults and gaps in your knowledge and try to address them.

3. For fantasy / sci fi stories, always try to pass the Mary Sue Test

4. This is a personal character development tool. Not sure exactly how applicable it will be in your situation, but it has helped me in the past. Remember that a strong character, one with depth, realism, and memorability, is a combination of traits which define their behavior (e.g. loyalty, intelligence, cowardice, cruelty, selflessness, empathy, vindictiveness, pettiness, wit, inventiveness, etc). Drama is what happens when characters are put into situations where multiple personality traits exist in conflict with one another.

For example: Say we have a vindictive, cruel, and cowardly character, let's call him Larry. Larry is a grownup version of a schoolyard bully that has recently lost a significant amount of money to a local scam artist. He has cornered the smaller, weaker man in an alleyway behind a local dive bar after the conman stepped out for a smoke. Larry knows that he can easily overpower and badly hurt this conman, but saw him enter the bar with an entourage of tough-looking guys. This character is given the chance at vengeance against a presently helpless antagonist, but acting upon his desire for vengeance puts him in danger.

Figure out what the driving traits of your characters are, and find interesting ways to make them play off of one another.

Edited by SirDubDub, 01 August 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

That's a surprising amount of VERY helpful feedback! While from this point on I will starting figuring things out from more "professional" sources, these definitely gave me a very strong head-start. Thanks!

Also,

SirDubDub, on 01 August 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

3. For fantasy / sci fi stories, always try to pass the Mary Sue Test

That's one thing you don't have to worry about....

[Mister Blastman]

My advice, being a fellow aspiring author myself (have finished the first draft of a novel, editing now, thinking of other ones, etc.), is very simple: write!

Yes, it's that easy. Write. Then write some more. And when you're done with that, write even more.

But before you get too far, learn a lesson from me, that I learned towards the end of my first novel: Character sheets! These are really handy.

As for a female protagonist... well, that's a hard one. Do you have a wife? How about a sister? Do you have an ex? It helps to somewhat understand women, firsthand, before you write about them. Now I realize they are mystical creatures to us slovenly men, but deep within there is something unique and different from us grognards that makes them tick. Capture that... and you have a woman... complicated temptresses that are the scorn of simpletons, their complexities lied buried deep, layer upon layer.

There is nothing simple about a woman.

Thus, sadly, I have no easy answer for you. I also lack leading female sentient characters in my novel--not because of my inexperience, but mainly because they don't serve much of a purpose towards the context regarding the entire picture.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 01 August 2014 - 02:49 PM.

[Hex Pallett]

Mister Blastman, on 01 August 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

My advice, being a fellow aspiring author myself (have finished the first draft of a novel, editing now, thinking of other ones, etc.), is very simple: write!

Yes, it's that easy. Write. Then write some more. And when you're done with that, write even more.

I'm kinda dealing with the problem right now. My OCD kicks in and just wants everything to be fine-crafted the very first time, and I'm slowly learning to tell myself "fu*k it, let it roll".

[Mister Blastman]

Helmstif, on 01 August 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I'm kinda dealing with the problem right now. My OCD kicks in and just wants everything to be fine-crafted the very first time, and I'm slowly learning to tell myself "fu*k it, let it roll".

Yes, well, see, that's the thing. Being your first time, you can afford to experiment. Believe it or not, my first attempt at a novel wasn't this one--this is my first finished one. My first one ended about three chapters in when I realized the book I was writing was in fact the second book in a series, not the first. The one I have just finished is in fact, the first, with a significantly stronger protagonist and antagonist than I even imagined in my first go of it.

Sadly, that book I originally started is full of flaws and issues I only realize now after finishing my real first book.

That's okay! I would never have made it this far if I just gave up during that nine month hiatus of contemplation and respite.

Don't push the character, let the character push you. I once read something from another author that went something like this: "When you aren't writing as your characters, interview them! Ask them questions. They'll tell you what they would think/feel/do in any situation. You only need ask them and they'll guide you along."

I think that's the key at least, to having believable characters. They must feel real, in a sense, a separate personality that gives them uniqueness amongst the expanse of universe you are seeking to forge--or whatever it may be.

[Anjian]

To be honest I find the best women characters are written by men --- and vice versa.

[Sparks Murphey]

Helmstif, on 01 August 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I'm kinda dealing with the problem right now. My OCD kicks in and just wants everything to be fine-crafted the very first time, and I'm slowly learning to tell myself "fu*k it, let it roll".

Have you considered asking in the fan fiction sections here if one of the play-by-post RPGs is interested in taking on a new player? There are only two active ones at the moment to my knowledge ("The Chronicles of Vega's Havoks" and "Steel and Snow") both of which are currently in combat scenes, which makes it tricky to just drop in, but I've found my experiences there to be very useful for the "F*** It And Type" development mentality. You generally only have to worry about one character at a time (the one you're playing), the other players give you feedback on the development of that character, and you can learn from how other players write their responses to the same situation. If you're particularly keen, I'd even be willing to start up a new RP and see if anyone else is interested.

[Hex Pallett]

Anjian, on 04 August 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

To be honest I find the best women characters are written by men --- and vice versa.

Clearer sight when seeing from a distance, maybe? I've read a couple of love stories that had surprisingly accurate depiction in men's psyche too.


In other news, I might have just created a space cult as a part of the back story. Will share it when it's done. It's surprisingly coherent.

[Rushin Roulette]

Additionally, I would read into various authors works which might be similar to your planned field who write about multiple protagonists, some with the opposite sex;

Louis McMaster Boujold (Vorkosigan Series) - Femaile protagonists, but main protagonist of the series is male
Robert Heinlein - mostly male protagonists
Arthur C Clarke -mostly male protagonists
Isaac Asimov - Mostly male protagonists, but the Foundation books have quite a few femael protagonists as well.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 04 August 2014 - 05:49 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Btw, quite a few authors have their own websites with information and interviews on them.

Found this one for Boujold who I find has some very in depth character development in her books.
http://www.dendarii.com/

Find an author you like and see what you can find in terms of interviews, essays or blogs.

[LoPanShui]

So, you want to write a female character? Fantastic!

The above advice about starting with character and then adding gender is pretty good, and a good starting point, but adding in feminine traits after it is a bad plan.

Try these steps:

1) Build a character and ignore gender. Badass space bounty hunter is a good start. Add in some hobbies, relationships, political opinions, etc.

2) Figure out what feminine means in the society you're creating. Believe it or not, pink things, makeup, flowers, cooking and lace are not intrinsically attractive to people with vaginas and abhorrent to those without. Different cultures have entirely different expectations for men and women. If you're making an entirely new society for your space epic then you need to know what kind of things define masculine and feminine in that society. If everyone goes around armed then big ass guns aren't necessarily masculine. If everyone's in skin tight space suits then walking around in yoga pants isn't feminine.

3) Finally, rather than add feminine traits, see how society's expectations of femininity, and of the roles of women in society, has shaped the traits she already has. If women in this society often work, but rarely join the military then there's got to be an explanation for why she bucked societal expectations to do what she does. If women are married off in arranged marriages in their teens then you're going to end up with an entirely different explanation for why she's a badass space bounty hunter and what it means to her.

Hope this helps. You should always think of your characters as people first, but never forget that they're people living in a culture, and the expectations of that culture are going to shape who they are as people.

[Hex Pallett]

Wow, good ideas one after another. Keep'em rolling!



(also regarding the society's perspective toward femininity, I might have just the thing for that... )

[Rushin Roulette]

LoPanShui, on 04 August 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

So, you want to write a female character? Fantastic!

The above advice about starting with character and then adding gender is pretty good, and a good starting point, but adding in feminine traits after it is a bad plan.

Try these steps:

1) Build a character and ignore gender. Badass space bounty hunter is a good start. Add in some hobbies, relationships, political opinions, etc.

2) Figure out what feminine means in the society you're creating. Believe it or not, pink things, makeup, flowers, cooking and lace are not intrinsically attractive to people with vaginas and abhorrent to those without. Different cultures have entirely different expectations for men and women. If you're making an entirely new society for your space epic then you need to know what kind of things define masculine and feminine in that society. If everyone goes around armed then big ass guns aren't necessarily masculine. If everyone's in skin tight space suits then walking around in yoga pants isn't feminine.

3) Finally, rather than add feminine traits, see how society's expectations of femininity, and of the roles of women in society, has shaped the traits she already has. If women in this society often work, but rarely join the military then there's got to be an explanation for why she bucked societal expectations to do what she does. If women are married off in arranged marriages in their teens then you're going to end up with an entirely different explanation for why she's a badass space bounty hunter and what it means to her.

Hope this helps. You should always think of your characters as people first, but never forget that they're people living in a culture, and the expectations of that culture are going to shape who they are as people.

This reminds me a lot about the works of Heinlein. He built up a (nearly) complete character, built up the plot, whent through the whole story with the protagonist and the reader. And somewhere somewhen his character had one non mainstream character trait which was seen as a flaw. The character either turned out to be an amputee, was black (remember, the stories were written at the time where colour segregation was still very dominant) or was a overly strongly religious. The stories were built up around the character, not his traights, sometimes this "flaw" was mentioned so subtly within the story that many people overlooked this and maybe only read on the 2nd or 3rd pass.

Writing a stroy about a space "badass" is great, let the gender be a secondary or tertiary part of the character development. Nothing ruins the story like an overly macho guy flexing his muscles, chugging beer while kicking ass or an overly feminine woman worrying about makeup while shooting an enemy .

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 04 August 2014 - 07:41 AM.