124 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

MeiSooHaityu, on 19 January 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Sort of. Like you said, a cousin of it. You could put PPCs anywhere there is an energy hard point, just there would be a total limit.

I don't see why the "ship has sailed" for this though. Nothing says you can't add an item limit to anything going forward. It would be easy to do too.

Just a lot of people wouldn't care for it lol.

mostly the QQ. And it would be counter to the layers of bandaids already in place. That said, something like this SHOULD be considered, I just realistically don-t think it will be.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

mostly the QQ. And it would be counter to the layers of bandaids already in place. That said, something like this SHOULD be considered, I just realistically don-t think it will be.

No it would be even bigger crap.

Think about that, you could only fire two er-ppcs.. EVER from 0% heat....so don't get a hot map, you'll nuke yourself if you use your weapons.

[Lily from animove]

Napes339, on 19 January 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

Reasonable stuff. The CERPPC does need to deal 15 pinpoint damage. The arcing was a cool idea and I'm glad PGI tried it but they need to be scarier.

bigger annoying screensplash with loss of sight, and probably HUD flickering. because ecm effect.

Edited by Lily from animove, 19 January 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pjwned, on 19 January 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

I'm not a fan of high speed PPC projectiles honestly, considering it uses no ammo and still does pinpoint damage you shouldn't have an easy time hitting targets every time; I think the projectile speed is in a mostly good place right now other than some mechs with quirks that are over the top.

I don't see the problem with an energy projectile that has good optimal range but will not necessarily hit targets at long range every time, especially because pilot skill can make up for lower projectile speed in a lot of cases.

because the heat burden is more a realistic issue than ammo constraints? The majority of heavy fighting is over in 5-7 minutes and all but the most boated dakka builds easily can sustain that. And are just as effective up close. I can spam away all day with a pair of ac10s, at range, or against a pesky light up close.

PPCs build heat so fast, especially er ppc, the real world efficacy leans heavily in favor of dakka atm.

Yokaiko, on 19 January 2015 - 02:13 PM, said:

No it would be even bigger crap.

Think about that, you could only fire two er-ppcs.. EVER from 0% heat....so don't get a hot map, you'll nuke yourself if you use your weapons.

dont think we are referring to the same issue

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 January 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Lockon StratosII]

How about simply lowering the damage: drop it to 7.5, increase speed to above gauss and drop heat to 9/12, that way ac10 is better pick for close encounters due to higher damage/rate of fire, LL/ERLL can deal more damage but requires steady hand, and ppc/gauss combo is invalidated because there is no damage increase, you are simply trading heat for ammo

[Bishop Steiner]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 January 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

How about simply lowering the damage: drop it to 7.5, increase speed to above gauss and drop heat to 9/12, that way ac10 is better pick for close encounters due to higher damage/rate of fire, LL/ERLL can deal more damage but requires steady hand, and ppc/gauss combo is invalidated because there is no damage increase, you are simply trading heat for ammo

because ppc is supposed ti hit like a ton of bricks?

[Artgathan]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 January 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

while nice, not really part of the package that is "needed". And certainly not something I would trade actual combat effectiveness for.

In my opinion it would really depend on the ability and it's strength. Something like a HUD flicker doesn't add a whole lot to the effectiveness of the weapon, but something like slowing the torso-twist of the target or turning off it's radar could certainly hamper your opponent in battle.

Something like doubling the PPCs effectiveness against armor, but halving it's effectiveness against internals, would help differentiate the PPC from other weapons.

Again, this is just personal opinion because I don't want to see the PPC become generic 10-damage weapon #3.

[Lockon StratosII]

Maybe it is supposed to, but due to the nature of damage delivery (ppfld), it's tonnage and the fact that it synergizes so well with any other ppfld system in game, maybe it shouldn't. (for some reason i can't quote you bishop)

[Yokaiko]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 January 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Maybe it is supposed to, but due to the nature of damage delivery (ppfld), it's tonnage and the fact that it synergizes so well with any other ppfld system in game, maybe it shouldn't. (for some reason i can't quote you bishop)

It doesn't if you are clan, you get guass, and neutered PPCs...period.

[Bishop Steiner]

Artgathan, on 19 January 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

In my opinion it would really depend on the ability and it's strength. Something like a HUD flicker doesn't add a whole lot to the effectiveness of the weapon, but something like slowing the torso-twist of the target or turning off it's radar could certainly hamper your opponent in battle.

Something like doubling the PPCs effectiveness against armor, but halving it's effectiveness against internals, would help differentiate the PPC from other weapons.

Again, this is just personal opinion because I don't want to see the PPC become generic 10-damage weapon #3.

I get what you are saying, but I also don't want it at the expense of it being a 10 pt damage weapon. Its too dang hot not to hit like a ton of bricks.

Using my Summoner as an example...... an LB-10X and ER PPC combine for 16 tons of weapons, before ammo and heatsinks. Yet its currently utterly outclassed by a mech half it's size, with 6-8 tons devoted to weapons. And it doesn't hit hard enough up close, OR at range to counter. I have no issue with a Firestarter well piloted being able to beat the Summoner.I do have an issue when the difference in effectiveness is such an order of magnitude as it currently is.

[Lockon StratosII]

(ok my browser is brain farting so I can't quote or press enter apparently) Well Yokaiko sadly clan superiority/is numbers asymetrical warfare from canon ship has sailed long ago so we have to deal with this "ballance" as better as possible: Yes that is the only ppfld build you guys have but there are clan xl lighter weapons in your favor also

[Yokaiko]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 January 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

(ok my browser is brain farting so I can't quote or press enter apparently) Well Yokaiko sadly clan superiority/is numbers asymetrical warfare from canon ship has sailed long ago so we have to deal with this "ballance" as better as possible: Yes that is the only ppfld build you guys have but there are clan xl lighter weapons in your favor also

Completely discounting abysmal, and I mean TERRIBLE heat.

A goodly number of IS mechs are flat better than anything the clan can bring to the table. Not even talking about lights.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 January 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

(ok my browser is brain farting so I can't quote or press enter apparently) Well Yokaiko sadly clan superiority/is numbers asymetrical warfare from canon ship has sailed long ago so we have to deal with this "ballance" as better as possible: Yes that is the only ppfld build you guys have but there are clan xl lighter weapons in your favor also

Clan lighter weapons are mostly pointless and the advantage of weight is lost in longer burn times and higher heat.

Clans can mount 10 ErML, they sure as **** cant fire more then an IS guy can, and the CLan one will take half longer to burn and deal that negligible more 1 dmg....

[Bishop Steiner]

I'll be honest (yes the lore nuts will scream murder) were it up to me, the Clan version of the PPC would take the Heavy Laser?Snub Nose PPC route and become a pure short to medium range version. 15 damage (with the scatter still under 90m) but a max range of 810m or so. Clans are supposed to be duelists, not snipers, anyhow. That ton less weight and crit would be compensated with it being much shorter ranged.

But because of power requirements, I would have them locked with gauss in that you could not fire more than 2 of either, together.


aint gonna happen though, lol

[Black Arachne]

All these problems can be resolved by limiting the size of the hardpoints on mechs - but instead PGi creates ghost heat, charge mechanics, makes over 100 changes to weapon heat, dmg, range, and more....one thing that should be done for the PPC is change the dead zone - this is not how the weapon works.

[Rhent]

For me, its more about making the PPC as a weapon fit its role better. The main problem with PPC's are they can very easily become the weapon of choice with very few changes being made. The ERPPC should be set up so that it is a medium to long range weapon and the PPC should be made to be a medium and short range weapon. How?

1st) Remove the dead zone and instead set the PPC's to use a decreasing damage as you get within their minimum range
2nd) Set the min range for PPC to 90M. Set the min range for ERPPC to 270M
3rd) Increase the velocity of ERPPC to 1,300.
4th) Increase the velocity of the PPC to 1,110.
5th) Leave the existing damage the same
6th) Leave the existing heat the same

The PPC is now specialized to be either a short to mid range weapon OR to be a long range weapon. You no longer will see Brawlers pulling an AC/20 + 2 ERPPC and be doing 40 pin point at 100M range. Instead you will see an AC/20 + 2 PPC's that are going to have issues with range but do well close up but they still will have reduced damage if a light mech can get within 20M and stay there.

Ignore the lore on the ERPPC and PPC and diversify their roles. Heat and Range is a fail at balancing them. They need different dead zones and velocities.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Black Arachne, on 19 January 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

All these problems can be resolved by limiting the size of the hardpoints on mechs - but instead PGi creates ghost heat, charge mechanics, makes over 100 changes to weapon heat, dmg, range, and more....one thing that should be done for the PPC is change the dead zone - this is not how the weapon works.

Only thing with sized hardpoints, is that causes some mechs not to be used even more.

I know when I ran through MW4, I never used a hellspawn cuz it couldnt mount anything good. Meanwhile, I used the Shadowcat until I got a Catapult, went from the Catapult to a Vulture or Awesome until I got a Mauler, went from the Mauler or Thanatos to the Nova Cat and occasionally used a Mad Cat MKII. Solely on loadout options vs mission difficulty and the firepowr I could pack in them.

I never did use MAd Cats much, I never used Thors or Lokis much. Uziels I used sometimes, I rarely used the Dire Wolf and Atlas........the sized hardpoints would further the dissparity of good mechs and bad ones....cuz then there is 2 stages people would use to decide on what to drive, what hardpoints does this mech have and how big are they?

[Yokaiko]

Black Arachne, on 19 January 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

All these problems can be resolved by limiting the size of the hardpoints on mechs - but instead PGi creates ghost heat, charge mechanics, makes over 100 changes to weapon heat, dmg, range, and more....one thing that should be done for the PPC is change the dead zone - this is not how the weapon works.

Or just break the perfect convergence thing.

But I know, skill.

[Lockon StratosII]

Well LordKnightFandragon I agree with you on that, but that is a laser balance issue and the fact that ppc/gauss combo is still (after all nerfs) deemed so powerful leaves with one of two conclusions: 1) those weapons need to change somehow or 2)the way we merge similar weapons into one mega weapon for optimal alfa needs to be somehow restricted

[Yokaiko]

Rhent, on 19 January 2015 - 03:19 PM, said:

For me, its more about making the PPC as a weapon fit its role better. The main problem with PPC's are they can very easily become the weapon of choice with very few changes being made. The ERPPC should be set up so that it is a medium to long range weapon and the PPC should be made to be a medium and short range weapon. How?

1st) Remove the dead zone and instead set the PPC's to use a decreasing damage as you get within their minimum range
2nd) Set the min range for PPC to 90M. Set the min range for ERPPC to 270M
3rd) Increase the velocity of ERPPC to 1,300.
4th) Increase the velocity of the PPC to 1,110.
5th) Leave the existing damage the same
6th) Leave the existing heat the same

The PPC is now specialized to be either a short to mid range weapon OR to be a long range weapon. You no longer will see Brawlers pulling an AC/20 + 2 ERPPC and be doing 40 pin point at 100M range. Instead you will see an AC/20 + 2 PPC's that are going to have issues with range but do well close up but they still will have reduced damage if a light mech can get within 20M and stay there.

Ignore the lore on the ERPPC and PPC and diversify their roles. Heat and Range is a fail at balancing them. They need different dead zones and velocities.

PPCs and particularly EXTENDED RANGE PPCs are NOT supposed to be short range weapons.

Lockon StratosII, on 19 January 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Well LordKnightFandragon I agree with you on that, but that is a laser balance issue and the fact that ppc/gauss combo is still (after all nerfs) deemed so powerful leaves with one of two conclusions: 1) those weapons need to change somehow or 2)the way we merge similar weapons into one mega weapon for optimal alfa needs to be somehow restricted

Or the convergence mechanics are broken.