31 replies to this topic

[John1352]

I think everyone who is reading this has tried to play a Community Warfare game solo. In US or EU primetime you'll often spend more time waiting than playing, outside of these times it seems straight up impossible to get a game. I'm in one of the larger units, with over 350 players, but in Australia, so I don't often see them online. If I play in US primetime I may get into one of our 2-3 12 man teams, other times I'll be one of the leftovers, who would still have long waiting times if we make a smaller group. Even in a large unit playing at the correct time of day we can spend as long in the lobby as in game. This is driving all the players away.

In your next PUG game, ask: "Who here would be playing CW if they could get a game?"
I get a 2-5 replies of "me". These are the players that are needed if CW is going to still be played by anyone in 6 months time, and they're needed ASAP.

I don't think most of us really care which planet we are fighting over, and a lot of players don't even care which faction they fight for. They just want to play the new game modes, which are way more fun than Skirmish #1, Skirmish #2 and Skirmish #3.

Screwing around trying to assemble a 12 man team from a faction wide chat is just more waiting. It will probably be an improvement over what we have, however what will really get the masses playing CW is a button that says "play now" and gives them a game within a minute.

[Darwins Dog]

I tend to agree with you OP, although the mode was billed as being intended for groups.

The new modes that Russ talked about in the last town hall sound like they will ease the pain a lot for small groups. Even better queue information, game modes for 4v4 and 8v8 teams, possible PvE modes, etc. An instant action button would be ideal for solo players who don't care what planet they are fighting over.

They could also use better options to form a group from the existing team. If you like your team, you could all click a button and form a group. Then at least your next search would be a lot faster.

[Flaming oblivion]

Yes a few would come back if queue times were faster.

But if you don't split queues between pugs and 12 mans.

They will remember the other reason they left and be gone again,

[Mordin Ashe]

No pugs => no cw.
MWO will probably never have the population for exclusive 12v12 premade environment that would work. Pugs = vast majority of players, as can be clearly demonstrated on every piece of data PGI ever gave us on % of people playing solo and in groups. We have to leave it up to PGI to choose if they want to create an interesting environment for everyone or bleed out their credibility by chasing something they can never catch.

EDIT: Also, remember how population in CW went. Nice beginning but when it became problematic to find a match, it went down. Then PGI introduced numbers of players in que on planets (useless for 12mans, but crucial for pugs) and the population went up. Now? 3x8h ceasefire, but nothing good for pugs, the population is more or less same. Even the current faction grouping is useless to solo players because it doesn't help pugs at all, you need friends in your friends list you have no reasonably simple way of getting. But just wait until faction chat is introduced, and then you will see numbers rising again - because that is something that will help pugs a lot.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 22 January 2015 - 05:20 AM.

[Grynos]

The wait times are horrible, and that is coming from someone who has been on both sides of the fence. There are things coming in the future that might help matters though, like actual In Game VoIP, smaller group size missions, etc. But the other side of the issue is that CW right now is not a mode to just "go shoot mechs" . There are strategies involved with drop decks, play styles , how to tackle objectives, etc. Nothing is worse in CW than having 2 to 3 people not knowing what the plan is, or not caring about a plan that is laid out. Three people doing something else, is essentially a full group.

[Grand Ayatrollah]

I don't have a problem with wait times, I figured out that if you drop on the exact same planet, right after you finished a match on that planet, you pretty much insta drop. I got 4 matches in a row without waiting at all. My only problem was that each and every one of those matches was against a 12 man team called CWI, and each of those matches my team was made up of 1 man teams, lol. Don't 12 mans ever drop against other 12 mans? These guys didn't face 1 coordinated team in 4 out of 4 matches.

[Bagor Aga]

Let me correct a bit. This game is about groups. Whole design must turn about little team of 3+ members. There is no real need for personal PvE, but even small group should know what place in big picture they belong and how to improve. Rating, e-honor or whatever - it must be implemented before c-bills economic

[Bigbacon]

Grynos, on 22 January 2015 - 05:22 AM, said:

The wait times are horrible, and that is coming from someone who has been on both sides of the fence. There are things coming in the future that might help matters though, like actual In Game VoIP, smaller group size missions, etc. But the other side of the issue is that CW right now is not a mode to just "go shoot mechs" . There are strategies involved with drop decks, play styles , how to tackle objectives, etc. Nothing is worse in CW than having 2 to 3 people not knowing what the plan is, or not caring about a plan that is laid out. Three people doing something else, is essentially a full group.

problem is, even with those thing people and small groups will still, possibly, go do their own thing and not listen anyway. It also doesn't solve mixed groups and/or solos ending up in battles vs folks they could never in a million years win against and don't give me the L2P, get better BS....that is just a standard fall back for the folks that don't get it.

If people get together, use voice, and try yet still get slaughtered 9 times out of 10 (if they even last to play 10 rounds) they would most likely just give up and move back to the solo queue. You just lost 12 folks.

Trying to force community and groups doesn't really work. I really don't think those other things are going to make it any better. they are most certainly things that are needed (VOIP especially).

Edited by Bigbacon, 22 January 2015 - 05:27 AM.

[Latorque]

Redesign the maps; alternative gamemodes. Otherwise PGI can offer me my own weight in coke served on broadway dancers postmatch; i won't drop on those maps with the "moron's meatgrinder" - bottleneck. They're not really my idea of fun in pure Solo Drops; and even less so when going up against massive, organized groups. I am in one of those now, and i might go in along if needed; but i don't feel inclined to do so if others are excited to do so.

And as long as the matches aren't fun in any way i definitly won't wait half an hour them .

But as long as solo / group drops are a blast; i gladly wait and see what's coming in CW.

[Wildstreak]

Well I agree with OP but note there are roadblocks to get across.

One is noted in the second post, the need to for smaller unit action.

Then there is this:

Flaming oblivion, on 22 January 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Yes a few would come back if queue times were faster.

But if you don't split queues between pugs and 12 mans.

They will remember the other reason they left and be gone again,

I also agree with this though I believe the community could have made this problem better to some degree while waiting for a 'magic PGI solution' except no one tried so the community is partly to blame for this.

[Thorn Hallis]

Ok John, so what do you suggest?

[Bagor Aga]

Wildstreak, on 22 January 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

...I also agree with this though I believe the community could have made this problem better to some degree while waiting for a 'magic PGI solution' except no one tried so the community is partly to blame for this.

not really. To time we need new concept of CW but PGI believe it is patchwork. They wasn't asking for help, even do not take serious results of last 6 months. It's free so I agree to contribute testing next phase too.

[conquistadorst]

I think the queueing system is primarily to blame. I understand PGI is trying to address the issue with new features but imho they're going about it all wrong. What they've produced is less of a queueing system and more of an match making lobby, an invisible one in fact. Players are expected to find a planet to "queue" for, while knowing only some general queue information and expected to find a match themselves while being asked to wait while additional players to also head to the same planet. Eventually a match is created. It's really not an easy-to-use, user friendly system at all, time consuming, and frustrating to use. The little popups and invitations are a nice aide but really don't address the root of the problem where players are more or less asked to find their own games in an invisible lobby.

It's a really neat idea to let players choose the planets they attack but it doesn't appear to be working for everyone. I'd suggest not removing this invisible lobby system because large units do rather enjoy it. Let them go hog wild with it. Instead I'd suggest just simplying add a new queueing system for "the rest of us" that works more like the other match making currently does. Many (maybe a majority?) players don't care which planet they fight on, they just want to play. It's pretty tragic because I genuinely enjoy CW more than vanilla, it just takes too long to sit there, wait, requeue, etc.

[Joseph Mallan]

Flaming oblivion, on 22 January 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Yes a few would come back if queue times were faster.

But if you don't split queues between pugs and 12 mans.

They will remember the other reason they left and be gone again,

Cause they want to be more effective in a group environment? Comms are coming, Lets see if that helps

[AlmightyAeng]

Mordin Ashe, on 22 January 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

No pugs => no cw.
MWO will probably never have the population for exclusive 12v12 premade environment that would work. Pugs = vast majority of players, as can be clearly demonstrated on every piece of data PGI ever gave us on % of people playing solo and in groups.

And yet the apparently tiny % of groups inspires such fear from some pugs on this forum that they are the bane of all existence and appear in "every game."

[Joseph Mallan]

Ghost Badger, on 22 January 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

And yet the apparently tiny % of groups inspires such fear from some pugs on this forum that they are the bane of all existence and appear in "every game."

however, No PUGs in CW will slow down the wait times cause it will take longer to fill CW matches Unless teams limit themselves to 12 mans or 10 or less. As a group of 11 would not be fill able.

[Darwins Dog]

I don't really see an exclusive solo queue working in CW. With each planet having it's own lobby it will be easy for groups that just want an easy win to sync drop and stomp (even if they only get 8/12 members on the team). Most of the competitive teams want to be challenged from my experience, but there are certainly some units that just want easy wins.

The other problem I see with solo only is that it essentially removes small groups from the game. You will have either solo or 12 man. Without solo players the MM will have to try to piece together full teams from whoever is around, which will take even longer than it does now.

In the end I thing that the best thing PGI can do is make life a little more pleasant for solo players, and make coordination easier. I think that the community needs to accept that CW is a harder game mode. It requires more teamwork, more coordination, and more skill to be successful. Trying to make everyone happy will be worse for CW than making it more exclusive. The trick will be finding the right balance.

[NextGame]

John1352, on 22 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

I think everyone who is reading this has tried to play a Community Warfare game solo. In US or EU primetime you'll often spend more time waiting than playing, outside of these times it seems straight up impossible to get a game. I'm in one of the larger units, with over 350 players, but in Australia, so I don't often see them online. If I play in US primetime I may get into one of our 2-3 12 man teams, other times I'll be one of the leftovers, who would still have long waiting times if we make a smaller group. Even in a large unit playing at the correct time of day we can spend as long in the lobby as in game. This is driving all the players away.

In your next PUG game, ask: "Who here would be playing CW if they could get a game?"
I get a 2-5 replies of "me". These are the players that are needed if CW is going to still be played by anyone in 6 months time, and they're needed ASAP.

I don't think most of us really care which planet we are fighting over, and a lot of players don't even care which faction they fight for. They just want to play the new game modes, which are way more fun than Skirmish #1, Skirmish #2 and Skirmish #3.

Screwing around trying to assemble a 12 man team from a faction wide chat is just more waiting. It will probably be an improvement over what we have, however what will really get the masses playing CW is a button that says "play now" and gives them a game within a minute.

It really needs to be a game mode tickbox under the play now dropdown. Sure you should be able to go attack a specific planet or whatever, but it wouldnt hurt to let the matchmaker stick you in a cw game on any eligible planet if you had it ticked.

Of course it would mess with the "player alliances" thing thats going on, but who actually cares about that heap of nonsense when you just want to play?

[Koniving]

John1352, on 22 January 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

I think everyone who is reading this has tried to play a Community Warfare game solo. In US or EU primetime you'll often spend more time waiting than playing, outside of these times it seems straight up impossible to get a game. I'm in one of the larger units, with over 350 players, but in Australia, so I don't often see them online. If I play in US primetime I may get into one of our 2-3 12 man teams, other times I'll be one of the leftovers, who would still have long waiting times if we make a smaller group. Even in a large unit playing at the correct time of day we can spend as long in the lobby as in game. This is driving all the players away.

In your next PUG game, ask: "Who here would be playing CW if they could get a game?"
I get a 2-5 replies of "me". These are the players that are needed if CW is going to still be played by anyone in 6 months time, and they're needed ASAP.

I don't think most of us really care which planet we are fighting over, and a lot of players don't even care which faction they fight for. They just want to play the new game modes, which are way more fun than Skirmish #1, Skirmish #2 and Skirmish #3.

Screwing around trying to assemble a 12 man team from a faction wide chat is just more waiting. It will probably be an improvement over what we have, however what will really get the masses playing CW is a button that says "play now" and gives them a game within a minute.

I completely agree.

Given the original (okay third or fourth or fifth iteration but the original video) explanation of Community Warfare presented us with 3 types of players.

I will begin out of order.

The Faction Loyalist. This is essentially and exclusively what we have right now no matter how PGI might ship this or dress this fact up.

This type of player is depicted as someone who has aligned his or her allegiance to the flag of their respective faction. They play for that faction, fight for that faction, exist in that faction's hierarchy, and have all the buffs and penalties there-in for that faction. (I.E. the Draconis Combine has Jenners and Dragons as huge mainstays for their arsenal. That makes them affordable, easily repaired and rearmed, etc. The Federated Suns however do not have any mainstay over Jenners and Dragons, and so if they used them they would either have a premium on the repairs or have to seek out and collect 'scrap' from enemy Dragons and Jenners to keep their own stolen versions functional). There can be other, minor advantages for the factions loyalists as well. In general however PGI specifically mentioned buying power advantages and suggested things such as the potential ease of repair hence why I use those examples.

A similar concept of capture and salvage could be placed on the acquisition of Clan mechs for the IS but other than to have a fleeting machine that'll be impossible to keep functional for long, I'm not seeing the point in going that far.

The clan equivalent is a Clan faction.

-----------------

The Mercenary Group. A merc group is depicted as a group of migratory workers typically containing elite and/or misfit members that do a faction's work whether dirty or clean. These players are by definition organized with a minimum requirement of 12 players or more. This means that they can get together, do an instant drop, and fight with better organization than most faction players probably can. Rather than being limited to a specific faction, it was originally implied that these players would hold territory on the Periphery which is defined as the outside border of the Inner Sphere.

These would be the players sent to fight the Clans in assistance of a faction that is under attack on temporary contract. These would be the players that are fighting each other for their own territorial rights along the edges of the Inner Sphere. Making bids to take over planets that come up 'for sale' and fighting to see who gets it. The groups who must obtain planets to mine, farm, settle their ships on, etc. in order to better supply themselves.

This is because unlike Faction Loyalists, it was described that Mercs would be earning more money (either through a higher payout or through said mining). On the flip side however, they would receive Zero faction support and thus would have no blanketed assistance in repair and rearm (you damaged it? Repair. You broke it? Buy a new one. Need ammo? Full price buddy). It was even taken as a consideration for permanent loss of your Battle-/Omni-mechs. This was to be the risk you take on every drop; the "Hardcore mode" that most competitive groups have been seeking.

Obviously while you could make more, you could just as easily lose millions of cbills in the fact that you might have to completely replace the engine or even the entire mech. (If Megamek is any indication, Megamek HQ i.e. Tabletop campaign, it is possible to have a limb and servo damaged so badly that you could never, ever, replace it meaning a permanent broken limb; picture an Atlas with a non-functional "shield arm", heh). This, of course, also expands further. The more expensive your min/max, the higher your risk. You'll see a rather large return of role based warfare within group players as they will be virtually required to support one another.

The Clan equivalent is a "Clan Loyalist" which is intended to cover Exiles, i.e. Clan Wolf-In-Exile.

-------

Finally, we come to the solo players. The pugs.
Lone Wolf. The Lone Wolf was described as a lone mercenary. Able to take fights wherever he or she might be located near. When the call to arms comes forth, the Lone Wolf will be able to pack up his or her privately owned Battlemech and join the fray. Since they are not part of the military, they may be thanked with a bonus trying to give incentive into joining that faction whether it be additional pay or even being given spare parts.

Though able to migrate around and take temporary jobs like the larger Merc Corporations and Security Firms, the Lone Wolf has the luxury of some faction-based support. This keeps the Lone Wolf, who is in this massive affair all by their lonesome, a bit of comfort when they go to sleep at night.

Expanding on that, they may not be able to get the Faction Loyalist's special rates on acquiring Battlemechs without first getting a lot of headway into loyalty points, the Lone Wolf has the luxury of being softened by the faction's blanket for repair and rearm concerns and no risk of permanently losing their mechs. The higher their loyalty points, the softer and warmer that blanket becomes, until the Lone Wolf finally makes the decision to take the plunge.

-----------

It was described that as ways of making additional money, Bounty Hunts can occur. These are paid out either by factions or specific players or units. It was mentioned that Merc Groups and Lone Wolves can participate, and that targets of Bounty Hunts can be single players, groups, and it was suggested that they could be specific planets (which would make sense if you wanted a planet that is NOT available to attack; it would be necessary for it to become defendable immediately and given the nature, a reduced number of battles necessary to take it over with the reward going to the group or players who took the job if they win).

There. Take the Lone Wolf description and add a simple "Play Now" button and there you go.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Lemme know. This is, for the most part, Bryan Ekman's description of CW expanded to elaborate ever so slightly on the 'implied'.

Edited by Koniving, 22 January 2015 - 07:42 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Darwins Dog, on 22 January 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

I don't really see an exclusive solo queue working in CW. With each planet having it's own lobby it will be easy for groups that just want an easy win to sync drop and stomp (even if they only get 8/12 members on the team). Most of the competitive teams want to be challenged from my experience, but there are certainly some units that just want easy wins.

The other problem I see with solo only is that it essentially removes small groups from the game. You will have either solo or 12 man. Without solo players the MM will have to try to piece together full teams from whoever is around, which will take even longer than it does now.

In the end I thing that the best thing PGI can do is make life a little more pleasant for solo players, and make coordination easier. I think that the community needs to accept that CW is a harder game mode. It requires more teamwork, more coordination, and more skill to be successful. Trying to make everyone happy will be worse for CW than making it more exclusive. The trick will be finding the right balance.

Not entirely true. A likely outcome indeed but 12 mans against a 7man/5man would still be probable and with in game VOiP in the pipe (supposedly) The two teams will be allowed to coordinate better than in the past.