480 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

CW is far too incomplete at this point to have effective "House" management. That means anything goes, as the only thing calling the attack shots is a program that cares nothing about any of us, only making it so two factions in contact with each other can fight.

Everybody's getting shot. If anything, the dominance of 12-mans has slowed this somewhat, but bored players are eventually going to sow chaos.

[Martis Gradivus]

Joseph Mallan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

They are Mercs. Contracts can be cancelled. One can become two. Two become Four. Soon nobody is working cohesively.

No offence, but wasn't that the politics of the IS circa 3025 - 3049?

Also, who cancels the contract? Can't leave that power in the hands of the players or you will get abuse.

Sounds like a no win whatever you do.

[Dimento Graven]

WarZ, on 21 January 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Which basically does not even remotely answer my question to you Aside from stating what you "want"

As for dimento continuing to drive on regarding his "wants", I notice how he completely ignored my post regarding the highly explainable role playing elements that this can represent. And as I know it dimento is a big time role player. No dice then ?

No, I already answered your premise which was the exact same self-serving, self-conflicting BS as I've seen over and over again.

But more specific to your point, you believe that a faction of the clans would disagree with the Clan policies, and therefore create a brand new unit to join Davion to attack Steiner, to disrupt the Clans?

Seriously...

And you wonder why I didn't bother responding directly to you, but instead left all my previous responses I'd made on similar, yet better constructed arguments, as a defacto answer...

[Harathan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

More like the Soccer pitch was open to everybody who wanted to show up and do whatever they wanted ((by the owners)) but some people who go there and don't own it are trying to make everybody play the game based on their made up rules because they all really liked a book about soccer featuring some make believe characters they all read when they were younger.

So let me get this straight. Someone owns a soccer pitch, puts out an ad that says everyone can just show up and play on it. A whole bunch of people descend on the soccer pitch. The majority decide to form teams and have a legit game of soccer. You and your bunch of friends decide you don't want to do that and despite it being a soccer pitch and there being a game already in progress, teams already decided, etc, you decide to go on the pitch and play your own game anyway, because... what? Because "No one can tell ME what to do?" Well, that makes you sound like a child. Because you want to spite others? Well, that makes you a douchebag. Because you just want to get your lulz even at the expense of other people? Well, that makes you something that would get censored on this forum.

You *wouldn't* do this in real life tho, because you know full well it's not ok. But in the context of a video game it's ok? Nope.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 12:35 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Vlad Ward, on 21 January 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

This thread exploded after I went to sleep, so I'll try to keep my responses limited to the points you brought up here with the understanding that I haven't read the following 7 pages.

First off, regarding unit reputation, this sounds nice in theory but in practice I think we're both aware that peperception means more than actual actions on the internet. Because I happen to take a vocal laissez-faire attitude on the forums, there are a fair number of people who are going to assume that me and my unit run around ghost dropping ceasefire worlds whether we actually do or not.

Likewise, we're simply not a new group of players, so a fair portion of the community (or at least the portion of the community we care about) has already formed opinions about us. There are people who like us and people who don't like us. There are also people who don't care about us at all. We know who they are. Those opinions won't change one way or another regardless of our actions on the CW map.

I can't speak to the davion fronts because I'm not playing them right now, but I can tell you that with the new call to arms improvements in game we have personally seen fronts open because of small groups and even single 12 man's in csj. For example, we thought it'd be interesting to test their efficacy by attacking a CGB world from csj around an hour before ceare fire (minimal danger of planet flipping). Not only did we manage to play 3 matches against actual players with zero ghost drops, but the queue managed to hit 30-ish on both sides before the reset - composed entirely of pugs and random small unit groups.

We've all heard the "Just play normal drops" line before, but frankly Invasion is just more fun as a game mode. In an average game, I can walk away with 700k in ~20 minutes of eating IS pugs either solo or with a lance or so from my unit. It's good money, and it's fun. There's no reason to play in the normal queue and grind the same **** we've been grinding for years. It's boring.

People talk like attacking these peaceful factions amounts to ghost dropping. To be honest, I have never ghost dropped more than when I was playing davion and following their ceasefire rules.

The end goal for faction units is to make peace where they can so they can overwhelm the enemies they still have with superior numbers. Their ideal situation is one where they outnumber the enemy on contested worlds, as this is when they're most likely to hold or take planets.

Conversely, the ideal situation for mercs is one where the enemy actually outnumbers them on contested worlds, as this leads to faster/instant queues, more matches, and more money over time. Nothing is more annoying than sitting 20 minutes in a defense queue because your faction has 60+ defenders to handle 30 attackers.

I can empathize with where factions are coming from, and I understand why they might find this sort of thing annoying, but the attitude mercs get for playing the way the game tacitly encourages them to play is wholly unnecessary. Faction units can't police their mercs, but they can police their members who take to being **** heads on the forums. When they choose not to, or engage in the **** slinging themselves, I can only assume that they're the kind of people that I have no real interest in trying to work with.

I get what you're saying, I do. However CW will play out over years, not even weeks or months. If you think reputation in CW won't affect mercs in the long haul you're crazy. Mercs with a solid rep are going to do better in the long term. No question. In the short term a few extra cbills is nice. If everyone thinks you're a bunch of rambo pugs in unit form though you're going to end up with less benefits down the road, less support from the factions you work for and if you think peoples opinions don't change over time you're crazy.

Vlad if you don't think there won't be perks for loyalist units, especially in regard to what benefits they can give (or deny) mercs you're not looking at what PGI has been saying from day 1 about CW. The point is that loyalist units will be able to offer benefits to merc units to attract them. If you're happy to have some cbills now in return for a loss of bigger rewards later that's a decision you need to make, just don't be surprised when it plays out that way.

For a merc reputation is everything. We're early in the beta process and there's only a shell of that in game right now. That sort of system though is what empowers factions to create semi-legit alliances. If the current system just plays out in bigger numbers then the game brutally punishes players for actually being house units (1/12th the potential rewards?) and has no incentive, at all, for factions to play like factions and should in fact be played like pug/group queue, just randomly dropping on worlds with matches to make cbills/LP in matches with worlds lost/gained being irrelevant.

If that's what you think CW is being designed to be then yeah. Your logic makes sense. If you take PGI at even a bit of their word though what it is and evolving into is a system where loyalists get growing perks for the success of their faction and have rewards to offer to attract/maintain merc contracts with merc units. Hopefully we'll see that in a few months. The question is, when that happens, why would anyone want to hire/reward a unit that's proven itself untrustworthy and unreliable? The promise they won't go back to that when it suits them? There are, even in lore, different caliber and qualities of mercs. Some are expendable thugs, some are organized, efficient and reliable military units. One of those is going to get better rewards from its employer than the other.

[Dimento Graven]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

More like the Soccer pitch was open to everybody who wanted to show up and do whatever they wanted ((by the owners)) but some people who go there and don't own it are trying to make everybody play the game based on their made up rules because they all really liked a book about soccer featuring some make believe characters they all read when they were younger.

Nope, it's more like one Soccer Team A, who is currently in a losing battle/stalemate with Soccer Team B, sending players over to Soccer Team C to disrupt/beat up Soccer Team B players, so that Soccer Team A can actually win.

That's more what it's like, actually...

[Alexander Steel]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

So let me get this straight. Someone owns a soccer pitch, puts out an as that says everyone can just show up and play on it. A whole bunch of people descend on the soccer pitch. The majority decide to form teams and have a legit game of soccer. You and your bunch of friends decide you don't want to do that and despite it being a soccer pitch and there being a game already in progress, teams already decided, etc, you decide to go on the pitch and play your own game anyway, because... what? Because "No one can tell ME what to do?" Well, that makes you sound like a child. Because you want to spite others? Well, that makes you a douchebag. Because you just want to get your lulz even at the expense of other people? Well, that makes you something that would get censored on this forum.

You *wouldn't* do this in real life tho, because you know full well it's not ok. But in the context of a video game it's ok? Nope.

Actually, the Owners of the Soccer Pitch said exactly what was allowed and what wasn't allowed. Just because some people want to say "I know the owners said you can do X Y and Z but screw that you can only do X because we want to do X. Sure we don't OWN the pitch, or anything like that, but what we want is more important than what the actual owners of the pitch have said."

The people "going rogue" aren't breaking any rules that were set up by the only group that has the right to make the rules. PGI allows for hot Davion on Steiner action and even naughtier Clan on Clan only behind closed doors action. It's some people who don't have any real authority going "Oh no that's wrong, you can't do that!"

[Dimento Graven]

Appogee, on 21 January 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Not so. The traitors/spies/maniacs have to create a new account, grind up a set of competitive Mechs, AND remain undetected by the people they are betraying.

That's their effort, their risk, their potential consequences.

If you want to go on a witchhunt to find the traitors (and I would, too) then fine.

But I don't see that PGI need to do anything about it.

Oh puh-lease, if all you're going to do is create an account to do turret runs until the opposing faction has to throw units at you from their main battle front, where upon all you do is play a delaying action, never intending to win an actual battle, keeping them tied up, you don't need to buy or level up 'mechs for that.

The trial 'mechs are more than suitable.

I find your rationalization idiotic at best.

[Martis Gradivus]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Nope, it's more like one Soccer Team A, who is currently in a losing battle/stalemate with Soccer Team B, sending players over to Soccer Team C to disrupt/beat up Soccer Team B players, so that Soccer Team A can actually win.

That's more what it's like, actually...

Well, you seem to have figured it out. Who is the faction behind this then....do tell, as you've obviously put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5.

[Dimento Graven]

RG Notch, on 21 January 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

I hate to break this to you, this is a game. No one elected you space pope or what have you. You can play all the political games you want with the rest of the players who want that type of game. You just have to account for rogue units, disloyal neo feudal lords and what have you. That happens in real life too.

Oh, NOW you want to call it a game.

Take your pick, "it's just like real life" or, "it's just a game", you really can't have it both ways on this.

Keep spinning though...

[pbiggz]

TLDR: Your ceasefires are futile and selfish, people want to play the game and they will, whether it tickles your RP fancy or not, so get over yourselves.

Edited by pbiggz, 21 January 2015 - 12:43 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Martis Gradivus, on 21 January 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Well, you seem to have figured it out. Who is the faction behind this then....do tell, as you've obviously put 2 and 2 together and come up with 5.

Who benefits most if Steiner pulls units all the way from the Clan front to deal with some throw away accounts on the Davion border?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 January 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

So play pub queue.

Not an acceptable argument.

What if I enjoy being able to select 4 mechs? What if I enjoy having something besides "chase the spider," "get to 750 before the other guy," or "stand in box to make red bar go away?" What if I like IS vs IS, Clan vs Clan, or IS vs Clan?

I hate to break it to you, but you and I are sharing a public park. I don't have to play flag football by your rules. I can go throw a frisbee with my friends in the park if I so choose.

I'm sorry I refuse to play the game in accordance with your grandiose vision.

[Martis Gradivus]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Who benefits most if Steiner pulls units all the way from the Clan front to deal with some throw away accounts on the Davion border?

Um, you, since you just gained a lovely new piece of real estate in the Terra Neighbourhood?

[Harathan]

Alexander Steel, on 21 January 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Actually, the Owners of the Soccer Pitch said exactly what was allowed and what wasn't allowed. Just because some people want to say "I know the owners said you can do X Y and Z but screw that you can only do X because we want to do X. Sure we don't OWN the pitch, or anything like that, but what we want is more important than what the actual owners of the pitch have said."

The people "going rogue" aren't breaking any rules that were set up by the only group that has the right to make the rules. PGI allows for hot Davion on Steiner action and even naughtier Clan on Clan only behind closed doors action. It's some people who don't have any real authority going "Oh no that's wrong, you can't do that!"

You're still deliberately avoiding the point, and I think that's very poignant. All the excuses you're trying to make are still essentially saying you think it's ok for a small group of people to go into a game and screw up it for a larger group of people, the larger group having already decided amongst themselves what the teams and whatnot were going to be.

Using my analogy, you think it's ok that just because the pitch owner said "You can do this here" means it's ok for you and your mates to spoil things for the people already playing.

Please, please go try that in real life and tell me what happens to your face.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[RG Notch]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Oh, NOW you want to call it a game.

Take your pick, "it's just like real life" or, "it's just a game", you really can't have it both ways on this.

Keep spinning though...

No, I said it's a game, but your poor analogy to real life simply begged for a response. So actually my answer covers both cases. You complaints seem to fail either. If it's a game then your real life comparison is pointless, if it's like real life, well then it's more complex than your simplistic I appointed myself to be in charge and you must all obey. So keep spinning.

[Alexander Steel]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

I hate to break it to you, but you and I are sharing a public park. I don't have to play flag football by your rules. I can go throw a frisbee with my friends in the park if I so choose.

I'm sorry I refuse to play the game in accordance with your grandiose vision.

It doesn't stop him from filing complaints with his city councilman every day that he wants the city to let him taser anybody he catches playing with Frisbees in "his" park.

[Darwins Dog]

I'm just going to throw in my 2 cents to the OP.

There are no rules in the game that support or require alliances. All houses are at war with all other houses that they border. As far as PGI is concerned, Steiner and Davion are at war. Nothing in CW says that they have to go along with the rest of the faction units.

The FedCom alliance exists purely out of game. Most units support it, but no one has to. There is no "Good of the House". If you want a game reason, it's because losing planets (or gaining them) does nothing for a faction.

If you want an RP reason then it's clearly Liao forces disguised as Davions that are trying to provoke a war (they've done it before you know).

EDIT: This reminds me a bit of discussions about spawn camping from my TF2 days. Some say it ruins the fun of the game. Some say it's a valid tactic. As long as the game rules allow it, then it will happen.

The whole soccer/frisbee thing doesn't make much sense. You can still play the game you want as if the other guys don't even exist. If planet rewards are added, then it may be a different story.

Edited by Darwins Dog, 21 January 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Harathan]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Not an acceptable argument.

What if I enjoy being able to select 4 mechs? What if I enjoy having something besides "chase the spider," "get to 750 before the other guy," or "stand in box to make red bar go away?" What if I like IS vs IS, Clan vs Clan, or IS vs Clan?

I hate to break it to you, but you and I are sharing a public park. I don't have to play flag football by your rules. I can go throw a frisbee with my friends in the park if I so choose.

I'm sorry I refuse to play the game in accordance with your grandiose vision.

To use your analogy, what you're doing is going into a public park, seeing a bunch of guys already playing a game of soccer, and deciding to go play a game of frisbee in the middle of it.

Doing that in real life would make you a jackass, and you know it. Doing it here? Same thing.

Edited by Harathan, 21 January 2015 - 12:49 PM.

[Martis Gradivus]

Harathan, on 21 January 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

To use your analogy, what you're doing is going into a public park, seeing a bunch of guys already playing a game of soccer, and deciding to go play a game of frisbee in the middle of it.

Maybe the soccer players would share some of the park with the frisbee players and everyone is happy? Or is that too Solomon-esque for you?