198 replies to this topic

[sceii]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 22 January 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Maybe you just not realize, but basically everything in "your game" is based on turn based game.
From mechlab rules, to damage, range of weapons, tons and off course mechs.
So maybe you are not playing game that you thought you ware playing.
Most broken things like ECM, heat, PPFLD are here because PGI can`t read good enough BT rule books and transform them truly to FPS casi sim environment. They even admitted about ECM that they just did not understand ECM rules good enough.
Everything more complicated you do in your live, you do with some sort of design plan.
In this case "The design plan" is BT rules. Better you fallow design, better the outcome will be. Just like with everything.

Now, there is no real reason why we can`t have heat system more closer to BT. The only one that come to my mind is that they want it to be dumb downed and simple to NA teenage crowd. But as usual if you don`t follow plan, outcome can be questionable. End we end up with gargantual, not clear, impossible to understand, ghost heat band aid.

Your detector is wrong. I really love battletech, but i understand that not everything from TT is suitable for RT.

[Pahrias]

Kuun, on 21 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

In TT there were heat-scale effects:



Why did Paul have to go and invent a bunch of asinine bullcrap instead of just going with something like what's in BattleTech TT already?

A clever person would look at all the interesting negative effects a mech could suffer as heat increases (slower movement, failing/flickering HUD, slower weapon recycle time, ammo explosions, widening cone of fire effect that compromises accuracy, etc etc etc) and then put them on the heat effect scale to prevent the high-heat alpha meta we have now. We could then have true Double Heat Sinks, as well.

But perhaps being clever is too difficult for some...

Yes. replace ghost heat with a mechanic like this +1

[Jaeger Gonzo]

sceii, on 22 January 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

Your detector is wrong. I really love battletech, but i understand that not everything from TT is suitable for RT.

Like what is not suitable? What can`t be done in RT from BT? Nothing is coming to mind actually.
Its real weak excuse for dumb friendly system.
Don`t get me wrong either, of course in transform process it probably can`t be 1:1, but constantly hitting BT balls and pretending everything is ok is other thing. Taking half of the system and inventing some dumb crap in place of the other half and call that Battletech game, just be couse trying to be dumb friendly. With end results that is overcomplicated,
ununderstandable anyway.

[Black Arachne]

According to the stuff in the Archive - Ghost Heat was supposed to stop front loaded damage and boating or was it pin point damage? Which to this date still takes place - what it did accomplish was punish stock mechs and non meta builds from being able to compete with the min/max builds. And now PGI is giving certain mechs that have been hampered by the current heat system/ghost heat, quirks that reduce the amount of heat it generates but they gave the thunderbolt superior quirks that out surpasses the Awesome/Catapult K2/Warhawk at being a PPC platform. Which like ghost heat makes little to no sense because this mechanic will never reign in custom builds which have always been a problem. It's time for something new that will be successful in curving the amount of damage that can be outputted.

Edited by Black Arachne, 22 January 2015 - 04:19 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Black Arachne, on 22 January 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

According to the stuff in the Archive - Ghost Heat was supposed to stop front loaded damage and boating or was it pin point damage? Which to this date still takes place - what it did accomplish was punish stock mechs and non meta builds from being able to compete with the min/max builds. And now PGI is giving certain mechs that have been hampered by the current heat system/ghost heat, quirks that reduce the amount of heat it generates but they gave the thunderbolt superior quirks that out surpasses the Awesome/Catapult K2/Warhawk at being a PPC platform. Which like ghost heat makes little to no sense because this mechanic will never reign in custom builds which have always been a problem. It's time for something new that will be successful in curving the amount of damage that can be outputted.

LOL, what Ghost heat did was basically persuade you to fire all your lazors over a controlled slower fire mode, as when you chain fire and fire to fast, you trip GH, but if you just FIRE EVERYTHING!!!! You dont....unless you fire enough weapons and it reaches some magical threshold of guns.

[Serpieri]

LordKnightFandragon, on 22 January 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

LOL, what Ghost heat did was basically persuade you to fire all your lazors over a controlled slower fire mode, as when you chain fire and fire to fast, you trip GH, but if you just FIRE EVERYTHING!!!! You dont....unless you fire enough weapons and it reaches some magical threshold of guns.

Ghost Heat is Magical and double heatsinks are cursed.

[terrycloth]

It warns you in the mechlab if you have to worry about ghost heat.

And chain fire doesn't trigger it if you let it fire at the default pace as opposed to wildly clicking.

It's not that hard to deal with. The complicated part is the weird formula it uses to decided how much ghost heat to impose, and there is no reason for you to ever try to do that math. Just go to the training grounds and test it if you want to know how much you're getting.

[pyrocomp]

Wouldn't splitting from heat viewpoint into components that have their own heat levels lower local heat cap but unaffect overall heat level?
E.g. each component (arm, leg, torsoes) have their own heat levels, exchage heat, dissipate it (through heat sinks placed in them). If wepon is fired, it adds heat to the component it is located in. Overheating lowers recharge rate or jammes or damages weapon or whatever negative effect. The heat levels can be shown as HTAL diagram. Less boating, firing from different components (not all build have same hardpoints in each component). Hopefully less alphas (damage to the weapon isn't a good idea, but that is a matter of balancing). Heat sinks can affect component heat capacity levels. So no GH is needed.

[darkchylde]

Heat System needs a rework and ghost heat is convoluted mechanic that follows no rhyme or reason as to why certain weapons are affected but combinations of others are not. And lets not forgot how long it took to actually get it documented and shown in the mechlab and PGI on top of all this implemented negative heat quirks. I wonder why this step was taken if the so called system was fine to begin with?

Edited by darkchylde, 22 January 2015 - 06:40 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Alistair Winter, on 21 January 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

I'm trying to find out if there's any kind of consensus among MWO players in regards to how to improve gameplay balance. Many players complain about the fact that mechs with very high firepower and pinpoint accuracy dominate the game. According to these players, this has a number of unfortunate side effects, such as too low TTK, lack of diversity in builds and loadouts, and dominance of certain heavy / assault mechs.

In the thread "DO THE MAJORITY OF PLAYERS WANT TO GET RID OF CONVERGENCE?" I asked whether convergence was the problem. A lot of people were on the fence, but I did a quick tally of the people who were clearly in favour or against the idea, and it seemed to be fairly even. No huge consensus either way.Certainly not to convince PGI that the community is united behind this idea.

The only other popular answer to the above-mentioned problem is fixing the way heat works in MWO. So my question is: do you all want a major change to how heat works in MWO?

By fundamental changes, I'm not talking about a slight nerf here and there or changing the ghost heat values. The common suggestions include:

• Reducing heat treshold. Right now, you overheat at 38 heat points without basic skills. 45.6 heat points with double basic skills. Some people want to reduce the treshold to 30 or below, even for mastered mechs.
  
• Giving DHS and SHS different functions. For example, DHS would be restored to true dubs (double the effect of single heat sinks instead of 1.4x) with a lower heat treshold, while SHS would have a significantly larger treshold. You would choose SHS or DPS based on your build and playing style.
  
• Removing Ghost heat altogether. This isn't really a fix in itself, but many people see it as part of what's wrong with MWO's heat mechanic.
  
• Substantially bigger penalties for overheating. Far greater damage to internal components and far greater risks of cooking ammo, leading to internal explosions.
  
• Negative effects from running hot. For example, when your heat indicator surpasses 70% your mech might start to move slower, your torso twist may be reduced, your arm movement speed may be slower. Maybe your HUD starts to flicker and your radar picks up ghost signals. The idea is to make it difficult for people to constantly run hot and also to punish people who rely on repeated alpha strikes. Apparently, alpha strikes were not common in TT or BT novels (can someone confirm?)

If you have a strong opinion, I'd appreciate a clear YES or NO at the start of your post. It makes it easier to determine whether or not there is a consensus that the heat mechanism needs a major overhaul.

Yes.

Iv'e been saying this FOR YEARS. And I always point to MWLL heat system and weapon heat as a pint to look at...In that game even dripping with double heatsinks 2 erppcs was nearly 70% heat, however you dissapted really quickly so it was easy to make really heat effecient builds just by pacing your fire. something that doesnt work in MWO with the lack of true doubles.

Overheat soo much in MWLL? you started blowing your heatsinks...Nuke your heatinks? BOOM. you go back to the hanger and get a new mech. Cooking of ammo would also be an interesting additon as well

[Lily from animove]

xXBagheeraXx, on 22 January 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

Yes.

Iv'e been saying this FOR YEARS. And I always point to MWLL heat system and weapon heat as a pint to look at...In that game even dripping with double heatsinks 2 erppcs was nearly 70% heat, however you dissapted really quickly so it was easy to make really heat effecient builds just by pacing your fire. something that doesnt work in MWO with the lack of true doubles.

Overheat soo much in MWLL? you started blowing your heatsinks...Nuke your heatinks? BOOM. you go back to the hanger and get a new mech. Cooking of ammo would also be an interesting additon as well

but this would require many to adopt a new palystyle and not use their one button configs. rage incoming

Edited by Lily from animove, 23 January 2015 - 01:47 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

Lily from animove, on 23 January 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

but this would require many to adopt a new palystyle and not use their one button configs. rage incoming

Hehe, I agree, but this counterargument is used about everything these days.
"I want collisions!"
"Yes, but think of the rage!"
"I want to nerf these OP mechs!"
"Yes, but think of the rage!"
"I want to fix ECM!"
"Yes, but think of the rage!"

Looks like PGI is bound to upset people

[Joseph Mallan]

Lily from animove, on 23 January 2015 - 01:47 AM, said:

but this would require many to adopt a new palystyle and not use their one button configs. rage incoming

Cool. I'm a 4 button Config (long range, short range, medium range, ALPHA!)

[Ilyena Natarescu]

I'd definitely like to see heat become something that needs to be managed a lot better, and with greater consequences for staying at high heat levels.

[Chuanhao]

No. I am perfectly happy with ghost heat. I rather not have a scaled increase in the chance of ammo explosion, or reduction of speed. Realistic as those two and other options are, they would make the game even more difficult. Ghost heat only punishes alpha which is good! Weak DHS? Just have to design around it.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I'd rather see them just add in 10% mobility penalties at 50% and double the penalties at 75% heat, at 90% heat start taking mild overheat damage, and at 70% I'd like to see the HUD start to statically flicker.

For ghost heat is rather see a more fluid or intuitive replacement like Homeless Bill's energy draw. Ghost heat "works" it's just kludgy and easily avoided in the mechlab.

[Burktross]

Well, if I were to have a finite number of "yeses."
I'd give you all of them.

(+1, Allistair)

[Almond Brown]

Lower the Heat Cap increase granted per HS by 15% and see what new Meta Builds arise. If the I.S. starts going all Ballistics to compensate, and Laser Vomit is reduced, then deal with that separately.

I can't see how a Heat Cap reduction for 1 item that "everyone" carries to be a tough chore code wise.

Edited by Almond Brown, 07 April 2015 - 07:57 AM.

[Raggedyman]

Kuun, on 21 January 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

In TT there were heat-scale effects:



Why did Paul have to go and invent a bunch of asinine bullcrap instead of just going with something like what's in BattleTech TT already?

A clever person would look at all the interesting negative effects a mech could suffer as heat increases (slower movement, failing/flickering HUD, slower weapon recycle time, ammo explosions, widening cone of fire effect that compromises accuracy, etc etc etc) and then put them on the heat effect scale to prevent the high-heat alpha meta we have now. We could then have true Double Heat Sinks, as well.

But perhaps being clever is too difficult for some...

THIS!!
Okay, maybe not exactly this because you can't transfer all of the effects across, but certainly THIS! over the current off-switch crayon affect.