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Rebalancing Flamers And Ppc?


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#1 Zamiake

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 01:13 PM

So as everyone knows the flamers are seriously the most under used weapon/joke weapon in the game just because they arent useful at all. A locust with a small pulse and machine guns is more useful then having a flamer in most cases at this point. Mainly because it takes roughly 14 of them to equal 1 IS large laser.

In terms of damage that is, but even then it still comes up shy. The only way to get them in use is to make them actually useful like they were intended to be.

I suggest that instead of generating heat they should Increase heat efficiency by 0.01 ~ 0.1 per flamer while activated (based on number equiped to provent excessive abuse/spam). The main goal its to allow flamers to give a bonus heat efficiency effect of no higher then 0.1. This is to provent needless spam as they would other wise be useless without enough weapons to reach critcal heat levels within a reasonable amount of time. Also greatly increasing the amount of damage they can inflict based on total heat accumilated. This is to aid in high risk high reward element that is within my suggested changes. They should make flamers a clutch play must have.

With this minior addition to heat management this should bring a larger variety to builds and help certain mechs based solely on lasers. Like the hunch back 4p will all medium lasers sits at a very hot 0.91 heat efficiency with double heat sinks (not to mention the ghost heat). Adding this change to flamers would probably see more players dropping a flamer in the head to bleed off that exccess heat and push off lights from their assults. Like their role generally is geared toward. The same example can be said for ice ferrets. Some times those guys can get hot. When dealing with multiple lights all gunning for you a flamer that can be used in a pinch like this should provide some aid. They are great veruses a solo light but more then one and it becomes a problem for that light hunter

Say you have some where in the high 90% in heat but you didnt shut down; You have a flamer. You throw that sucker on and you have a last ditch effort to save your self from whatever is in your face at 90 meters. Well to do this damage wise im suggesting 0.2/0.3~1.2 damage per second scaling per flamer (based on number equiped and heat load) down to its defualt damage when you are at 40% heat load.

If you have 12 flamers and 1 er ppc. I thought i hear mention you could get 13 energy points on a omnipod modified nova. You can build heat through your ppc and if something gets closer then you wanted you can dump your accumilated heat into the guy to the tune of roughly 2.4/ 3.6 damage per second scaling down the less heat you have.

Sorry for the slashes. I couldnt decide if having 12 flamers should be maxed at a 3.6 dps or 2.4dps. Cause thats quite alot of damage for a light to take per second in such a large burst area, but on the other hand the weapons range is shorter then that of small pulse lasers so I cant exactly say it isnt justified. Also the damage scales down the longer its fired. As some one who has recently started liking lights I would much rather someone suddenly hit me with a high dps flamer then chancing getting hit by a random ac 20 round or a laser boat alpha. This change could help curb that behavior but i dont think it would just because some of the crazy hard point some lights get. Talking about firestarters and the 6 energy point jenner and locusts

With this set up you do actually have a chance veruses a mech with open parts and you maybe able to blind and damage them while fighting them. It gives a reason to have a flamer and I can see it being very usefull all the time. Specially on extremely hot laser/ppc boat set ups like Nova primes. Nothing but lasers on there. War hawk primes all lasers specially if you like the ppc set up

It would also be a valuble change to people that use Er PPCs. Er ppcs can hit things right in front of them, but thats completely useless because the heat is soooo high and the chance of missing is also very high; Specially if its a light. Also the normal PPC boats are seriously annoying I suggest normal ppcs get a raise in heat to 12. Since Er ppcs werent hot enough at 12 they got raise to 15. Why then wasnt normals raise to 12 if 12 was to cool to balance ers? That may shave off 2 or 3 shots from being spammed in Cw. That'd be nice. For once i'd like to see a thunderbolt with some large lasers haha

Edited by Zamiake, 23 January 2015 - 01:22 PM.


#2 Mcgral18

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 01:22 PM

Just make Flamers energy MGs; and buff both back to 1 DPS.

Give it an option to generate heat or damage; make both options better than they are now, but exclusive to one another.


PPCs certainly don't need more heat; and isERPPCs could probably use less than 15. The current 7.5 for 9Ss is just ridiculous, though.

#3 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 10:18 PM

IS ERPPC 10/12, remove IS ERPPC heat quirks
CERPPS: 15/15 4.5 or 5s CD.
PPC, maybe do like some have suggested and give it a degrading damage under 90m, it has 10dmg, so 1 pt for each 10m....

Universally buff all PPC speed up 100-200ms

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 23 January 2015 - 10:18 PM.


#4 Macster16

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:26 PM

Quote

PPC, maybe do like some have suggested and give it a degrading damage under 90m, it has 10dmg, so 1 pt for each 10m....

+10
It's stupid that there's no scaling whatsoever for min range on the IS PPC. 89m away and it suddenly does 0 dmg? How silly. I feel what the IS PPC needs most is a rework on its min range mechanic. Second would be probably a slight increase in velocity.

IS ERPPC just simply needs a reduction in heat, period. 15 is too excessive and makes it almost unusable except on mechs with generous heat quirks. 12 or 13 heat would do it though I feel that 12 may obsolete the PPC if the silly unscaled min range didn't change and stayed the same.

C-ERPPC is about right IMO. It has the splash dmg as a bit of a bonus and since clan DHS are only 2 crits meaning clanners can stuff in more heatsinks, it doesn't need a heat reduction nearly as much as the IS ERPPC does.

#5 Cyborne Elemental

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Posted 23 January 2015 - 11:55 PM

What I'd love to see. (but will probably never happen in a million years :D )

Flamers 120 meters, no sustained fire multiplier heatup.
Energy equivalent of MG's & can knockout NARC beacon's on friendly mechs & temporarily disables Quick Ignition skill.
Return high Crit %'s and set damage values to both MG and Flamer at 0.85 dps.

PPC's

IS
PPC
10 heat
0-90m = 10 damage but splashing 3.3/3.4/3.3 until past 90 meters
1250 MPS velocity
Ranges 90-550 - 1100mx

ERPPC
12.5 heat
0-50m = 0.1-10 damage no splash
1300 MPS velocity
Ranges 825 -1650mx

Clan
C-ERPPC 15 heat
12 damage pp + 1.5 x 2 splash (15 damage)
1325 MPS velocity
Ranges 825 - 1650mx

#6 Sarlic

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 12:06 AM

I think other things are far more imporant. Such a maybe fixing excisting map assets, balancing out the modules of pricing and rolewarfare (which i hope they will do this).

Sure balance has been improved over time, but the maps do not, the same as the modules.

View PostMister D, on 23 January 2015 - 11:55 PM, said:

What I'd love to see. (but will probably never happen in a million years :D )

Flamers 120 meters, no sustained fire multiplier heatup.
Energy equivalent of MG's & can knockout NARC beacon's on friendly mechs & temporarily disables Quick Ignition skill.
Return high Crit %'s and set damage values to both MG and Flamer at 0.85 dps.

PPC's

IS
PPC
10 heat
0-90m = 10 damage but splashing 3.3/3.4/3.3 until past 90 meters
1250 MPS velocity
Ranges 90-550 - 1100mx

ERPPC
12.5 heat
0-50m = 0.1-10 damage no splash
1300 MPS velocity
Ranges 825 -1650mx

Clan
C-ERPPC 15 heat
12 damage pp + 1.5 x 2 splash (15 damage)
1325 MPS velocity
Ranges 825 - 1650mx



In order to maintain your numbers, we need better rmaps. All the maps so far are poorly designed.

#7 Macster16

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 12:35 AM

View PostSarlic, on 24 January 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

I think other things are far more imporant. Such a maybe fixing excisting map assets, balancing out the modules of pricing and rolewarfare (which i hope they will do this).

Eh? I don't think it takes much effort to change some variables. I don't think weapon balancing requires a developer to dedicate vast amounts of time and resources to implement....

#8 Sarlic

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 12:42 AM

View PostMacster16, on 24 January 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Eh? I don't think it takes much effort to change some variables. I don't think weapon balancing requires a developer to dedicate vast amounts of time and resources to implement....


It maybe does take not much effort. But everyone knows all changes must be tested first prior launching it in the actual version. PGI did it first plenty of times.

Why releasing just one value when ton of other values are in need of adjusting as well? Not each weapon needs to be adjusted, but we're far from done.

Although on the other hand it's not a bad idea to change one value at the time, but how do you want to analyse changes when you only changed one value? Costly change and data gathering for only one weapon change is not realistic.

I think PGI is trying to make a whole set of changes at the time and trying to pull data over alot of changes.

Edited by Sarlic, 24 January 2015 - 12:43 AM.


#9 Alistair Winter

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 01:00 AM

There's got to be a thousand different threads about how to fix the flamer.

PGI is aware of the problem, they've been aware of it for some time.

It's not changing or getting fixed any time soon. The latest word is that they may make flamers useful for PvE, if we ever get PvE. Incidentally, I've always said that flamers suck because PGI doesn't want the extra strain on their servers from people using multiple continuous hitscan weapons. This hypothesis seems even more plausible now, as PGI plans to make flamers useful for PvE, where there is likely minimal interaction between the servers and the players' computers, just like training grounds.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 24 January 2015 - 01:03 AM.


#10 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 03:41 PM

View PostMacster16, on 23 January 2015 - 11:26 PM, said:

+10
It's stupid that there's no scaling whatsoever for min range on the IS PPC. 89m away and it suddenly does 0 dmg? How silly. I feel what the IS PPC needs most is a rework on its min range mechanic. Second would be probably a slight increase in velocity.

IS ERPPC just simply needs a reduction in heat, period. 15 is too excessive and makes it almost unusable except on mechs with generous heat quirks. 12 or 13 heat would do it though I feel that 12 may obsolete the PPC if the silly unscaled min range didn't change and stayed the same.

C-ERPPC is about right IMO. It has the splash dmg as a bit of a bonus and since clan DHS are only 2 crits meaning clanners can stuff in more heatsinks, it doesn't need a heat reduction nearly as much as the IS ERPPC does.



Yeah, but the thing about that CERPPC, it is still no better then the IS one at 15 heat then the IS one. that 2.5 splash is pointless and utterly a joke. Sure, you might be able to stuff in more DHS, but they are still not DHS, the CERPPC still runs to hot to be worth really taking as a 10/15 weapon. Make it a 15/15 weapon and it to would be in a perfect spot.

As a 10/15 one while the IS one gets a 10/12 or 10/13 reduction+IS Quirks would just further obsolete CERPPC and further promote that Laser vomit.

#11 Zamiake

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 10:28 PM

View PostSarlic, on 24 January 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:


It maybe does take not much effort. But everyone knows all changes must be tested first prior launching it in the actual version. PGI did it first plenty of times.

Why releasing just one value when ton of other values are in need of adjusting as well? Not each weapon needs to be adjusted, but we're far from done.

Although on the other hand it's not a bad idea to change one value at the time, but how do you want to analyse changes when you only changed one value? Costly change and data gathering for only one weapon change is not realistic.

I think PGI is trying to make a whole set of changes at the time and trying to pull data over alot of changes.


orly? Then as revenge I shall make a nova with 13 flamers on it mwaahhahahaahaaa!

#12 LameoveR

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Posted 24 January 2015 - 10:55 PM

Oh, is it another Clan\IS OP dispute?

#13 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 01:15 AM

View PostLameoveR, on 24 January 2015 - 10:55 PM, said:

Oh, is it another Clan\IS OP dispute?



And in no way is Clan as OP as forumside would have everyone believe. Lately in CW, its been the IS just seemingly effortlessly waltzing through the Clans, not really the other way around.

#14 1ka Musume

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 05:57 AM

Where is IS Binary Laser Cannon?

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#15 FupDup

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 06:28 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 24 January 2015 - 01:00 AM, said:

There's got to be a thousand different threads about how to fix the flamer.

PGI is aware of the problem, they've been aware of it for some time.

It's not changing or getting fixed any time soon. The latest word is that they may make flamers useful for PvE, if we ever get PvE. Incidentally, I've always said that flamers suck because PGI doesn't want the extra strain on their servers from people using multiple continuous hitscan weapons. This hypothesis seems even more plausible now, as PGI plans to make flamers useful for PvE, where there is likely minimal interaction between the servers and the players' computers, just like training grounds.

Well, on the other hand, there's also the IS wub buffs and a few Clan laser buffs (un-nerfs, except for the CLPL which got MEGABUFFED), along with some other lasers having always been good (ML, ERML, etc.). And a slew of laser buffed mechs like the Wubverine and Thunderwub (although the latter got its buffed reduced...).

So with that in mind, it's probably more likely because of reasons.





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