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A Very Simple Way To End The Cw Zerg Rush


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#1 Anjian

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 01:58 AM

By simply changing the conditions of the attack.

Destruction of the Main Cannon + 75% of the defending force. (The actual percentage subject to tweaking).

or

100% of the defending force.

Mission victory for the attacker can be attained by any of these two conditions.

The cannon will remain invulnerable until 50% of the defending force is dead. (Actual percentage subject to tweaking).

The three generator requirement must be removed and replaced with the new requirement.

A possible nerf on the turrets and the gate generators (subject to tweaking).

One can consider this as a band aid until more maps and modes arrive.

This requires minimal changes to the code base and will utilize existing map resources.

Edited by Anjian, 14 January 2015 - 02:00 AM.


#2 Karl Streiger

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 02:03 AM

The problem with this approach is simple to see.

All the defender has to do is to drop with assaults and heavys in the first two waves - stay in the base with good cover and play murderball
tactic = ZERO

no sir - to get tactics you need the defender to split up and cover a bigger terrain - (in this case boreal is a shite map)
- to prevent light or medium strikes - you have to find a mission objectives that favor them.
(For example destroy support buildings, turrets)

with the given "mission" - its impossible to prevent Zergs without making it impossible for any other kind of attacker (don't forget the turrets - and the good field of fire.
Sulfur - reduces the ability of all defenders to shoot at all attackers from all angles on the map - because you hardly have LOS

#3 Anjian

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 03:00 AM

And you consider the current zerg rush, "tactics"? The moment when the answer is simple and obvious --- destroy the targets at all cost--- there isn't tactics but coordinated rushes. The current design smacks of good intentions are the road to the hell instead.

Destruction of the enemy is as fundamental a military objective. That the defenders are going to camp in the most fortified area, well, that is pretty much what defense is and what they are expected to do. The attacker needs to figure this one out as they have done since time immemorial. The defensive infrastructure (turrets and all) can be tweaked, lighter or heavier.

If the defender comes up with a wall of assaults and heavies early in the game, so can the attacker. Once those walls are equally expended, this will end up with skirmishes throughout the map. Do note when half of the defense is expended, and the battle has turned into faster and lighter mechs, targeting the main objective is now game.

How battles in history has always went, its always never going straight directly to the objective of conquest first. But rather to establish control, you need sizable whittling down of the defenders first, so that their threat is neutralized before their front is penetrated.

If players have fun with their murderballs, then let them have fun with their murderballs. Players do want games where they are going to kill each other a lot.

The main difference of destruction of fixed targets versus the partial destruction of the defending team is that first, what they have in common are the initial targets. But very different targets. The first has its targets, a fixed, immobile, unthinking target that cannot fight back. The second has targets that are something mobile, something thinking and something that fights back, which is another mech.

Edited by Anjian, 14 January 2015 - 03:11 AM.


#4 JackOfDiamonds

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 03:40 AM

Usually I don't comment, but attrition is no longer part of any viable military strategy. It is all about the rapid concentration of force at a single location, then destroying the enemy's ability to fight.

CW objectives that force a defender to protect critical assets (or locations) is more interesting than straight attrition, and more 'realistic'. Though I don't think there is anything vaguely realistic to giant stompy robots.

Capture points might make for a better ebb and flow, particularly if taking outlying regions provides some benefit to the attacker, and therefore forcing the defender to spread out their resources.

Borreal is a bad map because there is no reason not to do anything but set up defending mechs on the ridges. You can put full firepower on each entrance without needing to move.

Both maps need to make it easier for the attacker to change lanes.

#5 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 04:48 AM

View PostAnjian, on 14 January 2015 - 01:58 AM, said:

By simply changing the conditions of the attack.

Destruction of the Main Cannon + 75% of the defending force. (The actual percentage subject to tweaking).

or

100% of the defending force.

Mission victory for the attacker can be attained by any of these two conditions.

The cannon will remain invulnerable until 50% of the defending force is dead. (Actual percentage subject to tweaking).

The three generator requirement must be removed and replaced with the new requirement.

A possible nerf on the turrets and the gate generators (subject to tweaking).

One can consider this as a band aid until more maps and modes arrive.

This requires minimal changes to the code base and will utilize existing map resources.
Nope not this. The Primary Objective is the Cannon. Destroying teh defenders should only net a partial victory. Unless teh cannon is destroyed as well. Primary objectives should ALWAYS be worth more than a secondary Objective.

#6 Karl Streiger

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:05 AM

View PostAnjian, on 14 January 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

And you consider the current zerg rush, "tactics"? The moment when the answer is simple and obvious --- destroy the targets at all cost--- there isn't tactics but coordinated rushes. The current design smacks of good intentions are the road to the hell instead.


- aye - it is a tactic. while it is not called Zerg in BattleTech - but Headhunting or the Wolf Dragoons call it "Slasher Run"
Its basically hit and run - ignore the hard shell of the defenders go for the belly

the only thing you can make is to make it less attractive - mutliple targets at multiple locations is a good option - if each objective cost you dearly - for example without a break through.
But if you make it this way - its even more difficult for those that want to fight it out.

And there we are - stacked.
With current CW maps there is no chance to - give lights the ability to make a "Slasher Run" - but need brute determined force to make the major break through.
Well if you have a good idea - that will not degenerate CW into 2 waves murder ball + 2 waves desperate chaos - I'm in.


Regarding - fight the enemy - those Guns keep reinforcements away - kill the guns = drop more troops - make it obviously impossible for the defenders to make a stand - ask them fore surrender - and let them leave the planet with their bare life.
Maybe only Mercs (because no Mech = no job = no life) or determined fanatics would keep fighting and force you to kill them all.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 January 2015 - 05:06 AM.


#7 Mangonel TwoSix

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:09 AM

I'd be okay with adding an objective out near the attackers dropships as a win condition for the defenders.

But we do not need to 'nerf' the light rush. Just be prepared for it and defend against it. Some teams do something tricky and make it in and get multiple generators on the first run, but most teams we face do not manage to destroy more than one generator (and sometimes not even that) on the first light rush.

Make it so you have to kill a certain number of defenders and they are just going to sit back in the base and lob long range attacks at the attackers like was mentioned above.

#8 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:19 AM

View PostAnjian, on 14 January 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

And you consider the current zerg rush, "tactics"? The moment when the answer is simple and obvious --- destroy the targets at all cost--- there isn't tactics but coordinated rushes. The current design smacks of good intentions are the road to the hell instead.

Destruction of the enemy is as fundamental a military objective. That the defenders are going to camp in the most fortified area, well, that is pretty much what defense is and what they are expected to do. The attacker needs to figure this one out as they have done since time immemorial. The defensive infrastructure (turrets and all) can be tweaked, lighter or heavier.

If the defender comes up with a wall of assaults and heavies early in the game, so can the attacker. Once those walls are equally expended, this will end up with skirmishes throughout the map. Do note when half of the defense is expended, and the battle has turned into faster and lighter mechs, targeting the main objective is now game.

How battles in history has always went, its always never going straight directly to the objective of conquest first. But rather to establish control, you need sizable whittling down of the defenders first, so that their threat is neutralized before their front is penetrated.

If players have fun with their murderballs, then let them have fun with their murderballs. Players do want games where they are going to kill each other a lot.

The main difference of destruction of fixed targets versus the partial destruction of the defending team is that first, what they have in common are the initial targets. But very different targets. The first has its targets, a fixed, immobile, unthinking target that cannot fight back. The second has targets that are something mobile, something thinking and something that fights back, which is another mech.
This shows me you don't understand tactics.

Concept
Military tactics are both a science and an art. They answer the questions of how best to deploy and employ forces on a small scale.[2] Some practices have not changed since the dawn of warfare: ambushes, seeking and turning flanks, maintaining reconnaissance, creating and using obstacles and defences, etc. Using ground to best advantage has not changed much either. Heights, rivers, swamps, passes, choke points, and natural cover, can all be used in multiple ways. Before the nineteenth century, many military tactics were confined to battlefield concerns: how to maneuver units during combat in open terrain. Nowadays, specialized tactics exist for many situations, for example for securing a room in a building.

What changes constantly is the technological dimension, as well as the sociology of combatants. One might wish to reflect on the technological and societal differences that produced such varying types of soldier or warrior: Greek Hoplite, Roman Legionary, Medieval Knight, Turk-Mongol Horse Archer, Chinese Crossbowman, British Redcoat, or an Air Cavalry trooper. Each – constrained by his weaponry, logistics and social conditioning – would use a battlefield differently, but would usually seek the same outcomes from their use of tactics. In many respects the First World War changed the use of tactics as advances in technology rendered prior tactics useless.[3]

ergo The Zerg rush Which likely have a place. Since we do not have proper artillery or air support in MW:O and the fact that this is a timed fight with an objective to destroy and casualties are not a factor(We don't lose anything after the battle). Rushing is a perfectly acceptable tactic.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 January 2015 - 09:03 AM.


#9 AlmightyAeng

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 07:12 AM

Not that I have a huge problem with zerg rushes in general (it's a valid tactic, there are ways to counter it)...

Could we get Heffay to do a new MWO song to the lyrics of "All about dat base, 'bout dat base, no c-bills." ??? Just sayin.'

#10 Basilisk222

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 07:51 AM

The reason you're there is to destroy the orbital cannon, The reason the orbital cannon is there is to shoot up against the enormous ships toting foot soldiers, mechanized warfare machines, and guns with shells the size of buildings from getting close enough to your planet to lay waste to it. With a huge grid of orbital defense, you could send even big ships into life support protocols since they're in space.

The objective is to send 48 mechs to likely heavy losses in the hope of not losing a several mile long ship toting VIP's, equipment and civilians, not to mention riot killing gear, nothing says "don't do that" like a bullet the size of an atlas being fired.

Edited by Kilgorin Strom, 14 January 2015 - 07:51 AM.


#11 Zolaz

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 07:56 AM

I like how generators are impervious to Artillery and Air Strikes, just like in the real world. :rolleyes:

#12 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 07:58 AM

View PostZolaz, on 14 January 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

I like how generators are impervious to Artillery and Air Strikes, just like in the real world. :rolleyes:

LOL it saved PGI the headache of having to fix it for those who would have cried.

#13 Lukoi Banacek

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 08:08 AM

Bigger CW maps would encourage the need to operate in lances/small groups, the value of recon etc.

Part of the reason for the CW rush is it is simply more efficient from a time perspective to do so. It doesnt matter where the enemy chooses to defend when the objective interior is small. Given a solid defender buttressed by turrets and dropships, trying to attrit for the win is feasible but time consuming. And frankly reduces an attacker's chances.

Against a team of relatively equal skill, the defender should win given the advantage in firepower. While most of us all want great fights and parity in the matches, there is little incentive to play to the defender's strengths (ie free firepower), especially at the cost of time.

Larger objective areas that force BOTH sides to use recon, to weigh their forces to create localized combat power superiority, to consider the use of deception and maneuver, would reduce the rush to nothing.

Simply adding more bumpy terrain on the map does not accomplish that imo. Nor do we need arbitrary kill % in an objective based match.



#14 Khobai

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 08:37 AM

Id like to see the following three changes:

1) get rid of gate generators and make the gates capturable instead. if the attackers own the gate it opens. if the defenders own the gate it closes. basically the gate itself would be a capture node like in conquest... and in order to prevent stalemates the attacking mechs would get a passive bonus to cap faster. So recapturing the gate would just slow down the attackers but never stop them entirely.

2) substantially increase the health on the cannon generator and link the other generators to turrets so destroying them powers down the closest turrets

3) move the defenders spawn points to more remote areas of the bases so theyre not directly in the attackers path

that should result in less rushing and more fighting over control of the gates. it also helps lessen the defender advantage of turrets and makes defending generators more important to keep the turrets online.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2015 - 08:55 AM.


#15 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 08:46 AM

View PostKhobai, on 14 January 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Id like to see the following three changes:

1) get rid of gate generators and make gates capturable instead. if the attackers own the gate it opens. if the defenders own the gate it closes.
2) substantially increase the health on the cannon generator and link the other generators to turrets so destroying them powers down the closest turrets
3) move the defenders spawn points to more remote areas of the bases so theyre not directly in the attackers path

that should result in less rushing and more fighting over control of the gates. it also helps lessen the defender advantage of turrets and makes defending generators more important to keep the turrets online.

1) Thats an interesting idea. How would the "capture" be established?

2) nice idea.

3) The defenders spawn points should be a Building or buildings inside the base. Having to drop in their own base seems silly. It would be no less campable that what we have now but would look more realistic storming (trudging) out of a hanger.

#16 Khobai

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 08:53 AM

Quote

1) Thats an interesting idea. How would the "capture" be established?


I was thinking the whole gate could just be a capture zone? but the attackers would get a bonus to cap faster than the defenders to prevent stalemates from keeping the gate closed forever.

#17 Johnny Z

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:00 AM

View PostAnjian, on 14 January 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

And you consider the current zerg rush, "tactics"? The moment when the answer is simple and obvious --- destroy the targets at all cost--- there isn't tactics but coordinated rushes. The current design smacks of good intentions are the road to the hell instead.

Destruction of the enemy is as fundamental a military objective. That the defenders are going to camp in the most fortified area, well, that is pretty much what defense is and what they are expected to do. The attacker needs to figure this one out as they have done since time immemorial. The defensive infrastructure (turrets and all) can be tweaked, lighter or heavier.

If the defender comes up with a wall of assaults and heavies early in the game, so can the attacker. Once those walls are equally expended, this will end up with skirmishes throughout the map. Do note when half of the defense is expended, and the battle has turned into faster and lighter mechs, targeting the main objective is now game.

How battles in history has always went, its always never going straight directly to the objective of conquest first. But rather to establish control, you need sizable whittling down of the defenders first, so that their threat is neutralized before their front is penetrated.

If players have fun with their murderballs, then let them have fun with their murderballs. Players do want games where they are going to kill each other a lot.

The main difference of destruction of fixed targets versus the partial destruction of the defending team is that first, what they have in common are the initial targets. But very different targets. The first has its targets, a fixed, immobile, unthinking target that cannot fight back. The second has targets that are something mobile, something thinking and something that fights back, which is another mech.


I will not agree or disagree with this, but I will agree with the gist of this reply, and thats, make the maps make sense then let the players deal with it. Taking balance into consideration etc.

I fully expect some maps to be slightly harder or tougher etc etc etc, that creates variety and challenge. Just continue adding new maps and optimize cause video lag can be brutal and move on with making the game. :)

Edited by Johnny Z, 14 January 2015 - 09:02 AM.


#18 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:02 AM

View PostKhobai, on 14 January 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:


I was thinking the whole gate could just be a capture zone? but the attackers would get a bonus to cap faster than the defenders to prevent stalemates from keeping the gate closed forever.

maybe... I'm more for the destructible terrain myself. having to decide do we try to kill the enemy then smash the gate, or just smash the gate or a bit of both each choice has a up side and a down side.

#19 Revis Volek

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:08 AM

View PostKhobai, on 14 January 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

2) substantially increase the health on the cannon generator and link the other generators to turrets so destroying them powers down the closest turrets



Pretty sure that already happens at the door. Dunno about anywhere else....

#20 Davers

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Posted 14 January 2015 - 05:42 PM

Any game mode that can be decided by destroying 'something' will favour light rushes. Doesn't matter if it is a convoy or a big gun. We can either accept that light mechs have a powerful role in CW or design game modes that promote heavier mechs. If you had to capture the generators rather than destroy them, it would be a radically different game mode.





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