315 replies to this topic

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Page 8 of Total Warfare sums it up. This rules set supercedes all previous rulesets INCLUDING any scenario packs. If any rule conflicts with a Total Warfare rule, the Total Warfare rule overrides. Check mate. You lost. if your playing current tournament rules, everything BEFORE Total Warfare is null and void. I say again, either quote a core rules set that forces zell, or get off that. Seriously. pg 273-275 Total Warfare. This isn't a loophole, but Mechwarrior isn't battletech. But battletech can be used as Mechwarrior. Mechwarrior is a role playing system. It's not the same.

I have not lost anything. You just keep setting up straw men, and then declaring victory. I NEVER SAID THAT THE CORE RULES SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ANY BEHAVIOR EVER! THE CORE RULES DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING ABOUT BEHAVIOR FOR ANYONE! NOT INNER SPHERE! NOT CLANS! NO ONE! NO ONE! NO ONE!

Good Lord! This is pointless. Your entire argument revolves around IGNORING EVERYTHING THAT COMPRISES THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE OF BATTLETECH just because the core rules don't mention it? The core rules totally ignore LOADS of things because the core rules are exactly that -- the core rules! THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE REST OF IT DOES NOT MATTER.

AND IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT TOTAL WARFARE SAYS! We are discussing the nature of the Clans as they were DESIGNED back when they were IMPLEMENTED against WHAT EXISTED THEN. FASA and then FanPro revise everything to fit with WHAT EXISTS AT THE TIME THEY MAKE REVISIONS.

You keep pointing to books that came out a decade or more AFTER the Clans were implemented. You entirely ignore that multiple technical readouts had come out, the Inner Sphere had been provided with its own OmniMechs, better domestic technology, access to some Clan technology, and on and on and on and on. This game is based in 3049, not 3060 looking backwards to 3049. We are YEARS away from any of the developments that led to revisions. THEY DID NOT REVISE THE RULES TO REVISE WHAT HAD ALREADY TAKEN PLACE A DECADE OR MORE EARLIER. THEY REVISED THE RULES FOR WHAT WAS TAKING PLACE THEN.

AND I HAVE NOT SAID THAT THE CLANS SHOULD BE FORCED TO FIGHT ONE-ON-ONE! I HAVE SAID THAT THE CLANS SHOULD BE OUTNUMBERED AND/OR THE INNER SPHERE SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO ITEMS THEY USED TO TRUMP THE CLANS! THAT WAS THE LORE! THAT IS WHAT THE BV SYSTEM CAME IN AND ENFORCED!

You just continually tell me I am arguing something I am not arguing, and you then declare victory. You regurgitate some of my own points to me, claim them as your own, and then declare victory. You completely ignore what the argument is, snicker or giggle or whatever, and then declare victory.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Ah, an IS player that would rather not see clans be around. As I had figured out and now confirm. If the game was doing so well why were the clans introduced? Hmm?

Just further proof that you are arguing with some mythical being that does not actually exist. I never said that I would rather not see the Clans around. If that was the case, WHY WOULD I BE ARGUING FOR THE CLANS TO BE PUT IN PLACE IN FULL POWER? I said that I would not care had this been set earlier and thus did not include the Clans. So what? That is not the same thing as saying I would rather not see the Clans in the game. They chose the Invasion Era, so they should do it right. If they had chosen the Fourth Succession War, I would want them to do it right then as well.

Also, the game was doing just fine. The Clans were introduced because the framework had already been laid for them as part of the story. BattleTech could have continued without the Clans being implemented in 1990, but FASA decided to make the leap. They published the 2750 TRO in 1989, which laid the groundwork for the 3050 TRO in 1990. The only Clans that were really built up in earnest were Wolf (1991) and Jade Falcon (1992), and they did not build up the other invaders in a major way until 1994 with Invading Clans. They did not return to the subject of the Clans in a major way until 1998-1999, and FASA touched the Clans once more in 2001. So congratulations? They produced a whopping 7 books through 2001 to really provide a bunch of background to Clanners. In comparison, the Inner Sphere had:

ComStar (1992)
Mercenary's Handbook 3055 (1993)
Solaris: The Reaches (1993)
Chaos March (1995)
Explorer Corps (1996)
Field Manual: Draconis Combine (1996)
The Periphery (1996)
Field Manual: Free Worlds League (1997)
Field Manual: Mercenaries (1997)
Field Manual: ComStar (1999)
MechWarrior's Guide to Solaris VII (1999)
Shattered Sphere (1999)
Field Manual: Capellan Confederation (2000)
Field Manual: Federated Suns (2000)
Field Manual: Lyran Alliance (2000)
Inner Sphere (2000)

Yeah, you're right. The Clans really saved BattleTech. FASA only produced 2.3 times as many field manuals and sourcebooks about the Inner Sphere from 1991-2001 as they did for the Clans. That is on top of the fact that each of the Great Houses had its own sourcebook in 1987-1988 as well as the mercenaries. When FASA closed in 2001, BattleTech was sold to WizKids, which licensed it to FanPro. Topps bought WizKids in 2003. In 2007, Catalyst Game Labs picked up the license to BattleTech. Keep all of that in mind when trying to use post-FASA books to reflect on FASA's work.

Edited by Hunson Abadeer, 06 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[Manfromx]

I like a lot of the discussions that have gone on in this thread.

I just wanted to input two different ideas to hopefully get some comments on

Firstly the "idea" of balance in a game. Balance is just an idea in our head of some ideal state where your own personal skill can overcome another persons and neither has an advantage outside of skill. I think this definition is fairly reasonable when discussing computer games.

Obviously in the real world and with real conflicts we don't see this kind of balance. It's mostly reserved for sports to try and discern who the better player is. I definitely think this has some value in video games as a lot of us do play games to be the "best" or for at least a match.

However for me (and I doubt I'm alone) I play games for fun and for a challenge. Whether I'm at the top of the list at the end of the round or whether or not I won doesn't factor completely into how much fun I had (though it can help, no lie). The real fun is being able to test my skill in a variety of situations might be the best way to put it.

An example of this (and I know some hate World of Tank comparisons but I think it's fine here) would be with the balancing in World of Tanks. Sometimes that system just outright fails at achieving even a decently even field of tanks. One side will have 3 heavies fully upgraded and the other will have a mix of hodgepodge mediums of a lower tier at various upgrade states. The fact this happens though has led to some of the most exciting matches and most satisfying victories I've ever experienced. Sometimes the fact you are out-gunned and out-armoured can strengthen your teams resolve and cohesion. The fact this can happen in random matches makes it even more incredible to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see 10 vs 1 matches. Obviously we need some order. Maybe we don't need such a heavy hand, especially depending on the situation. This leads me to my next point.

Depending on how much variety there is to MWO gameplay modes, our idea of balance will probably change.

I haven't seen many details on exactly how the campaign map will be implemented and exactly what effect each house can have on it. When/if the developers add the clans it would be nice if we had a variety of options in which to play. Some basic ideas are probably familar to many of you.

• Random matches

IS mechs & Clan mechs mixed on the same team: Provides a quick and dirty way to get action in for casual gaming/gamers

• Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS battles

Depending on how deep the campaign map is this would add a nice internal conflict and politics to the game.

• Mixed battles (Clan vs IS)

This is our big balancing concern and from what I've read something like BV is the best choice.

• Solaris Arena

If we could spectate, bet credits on people and participate in this...... well it's another whole layer of gameplay sure to suck in more customers. Balancing here becomes a big question mark.

• Multi faction battles (greater than 2 at once)

Essentially calling in other houses, clans to help

• Scenarios

Basically highlights from mechwarrior fiction, past games etc that limit your mech choices / fittings but give you a chance to relive some cool moments.

For each of these scenario's your view of what is balance is going to shift somewhat. If you did Solaris Arena combat what is the balance? Can a scout fight a heavy? What if the scout is good enough to make it work, why would you want to limit that option? Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS might play out differently as well. For scenarios you could balance to the nth degree because you can hand build it. Or maybe you purposely have it unbalanced for a challenge but with greater rewards for the underdog.

Anyways I'll wrap it up there. It's time for beers. Let me know what you guys think.

tl;dr
1. Not everyone thinks we need a "perfect" balance, sometimes being the underdog is fun and yes, sometimes being the Empire is fun
2. Depending what game modes are present when Clans are introduced will change our perception of what balance is "good".

[phelancracken]

Hunson, you stated in another thread if the clans never came into the game you would not shed a tear. Yet your saying you want full power clans. Seriously, are you for the clans full power? As in no need to rebalance them due to being overpowered? You might want to check your other thread on this subject before going there. I have seen different. So makes me wonder why the double standard.

As it stands, the current rules that are available in TT gives MWO a good idea what works for Battletech. Will it work completely in computer form, no. Even I know that. However, most of it can work. But with the time frame and the fact that practically all IS advanced tech available in the 3050TRO is available, who knows how the newer mechs become available. I don't have a crystal ball on how MWO is going to implement them.

My arguement don't revolve around ignoring the source books, it revolves around what is Absolutely essential to play the Game. The source books are not essential. The game worked rather well in 1990 with the clans over all. No zell was forced due to it not being a core rule. if it was meant to be a core rule it would have been included as such.

Finally, do you play TT? Do you? If playing an official game, what rule set would you use? It's the same in every game system no matter what. Unless specified otherwise as a special scenario, the most current rules are used. In fact official events have always used the most current rule sets. If for nothing else, to make people buy those rules. That's a fact.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Hunson, you stated in another thread if the clans never came into the game you would not shed a tear. Yet your saying you want full power clans. Seriously, are you for the clans full power? As in no need to rebalance them due to being overpowered? You might want to check your other thread on this subject before going there. I have seen different. So makes me wonder why the double standard.

As it stands, the current rules that are available in TT gives MWO a good idea what works for Battletech. Will it work completely in computer form, no. Even I know that. However, most of it can work. But with the time frame and the fact that practically all IS advanced tech available in the 3050TRO is available, who knows how the newer mechs become available. I don't have a crystal ball on how MWO is going to implement them.

My arguement don't revolve around ignoring the source books, it revolves around what is Absolutely essential to play the Game. The source books are not essential. The game worked rather well in 1990 with the clans over all. No zell was forced due to it not being a core rule. if it was meant to be a core rule it would have been included as such.

Finally, do you play TT? Do you? If playing an official game, what rule set would you use? It's the same in every game system no matter what. Unless specified otherwise as a special scenario, the most current rules are used. In fact official events have always used the most current rule sets. If for nothing else, to make people buy those rules. That's a fact.

1.) There is no double standard. Just a lack of reading comprehension. I said I would not have shed a tear had MWO been set in the Fourth Succession War, but I have said in numerous threads that they chose the Invasion Era and should do it right. That means putting the Clans in as the Clans were designed, which means overpowered technology checked by other factors.

2.) Faction-specific behavior was never in the core rules. The core rule books always stipulated that such things were left up to the players or whatever scenario pack was being used. The core rules deal only with the basic mechanics of the game. How the game is played has always been left up to the players involved, but the original introduction to the Clans included the code of honor as well as the expanded information that came out 1991-1994. Your argument revolves on relying only on the core rules, which means there is nothing to check the Clanners except BV assuming they put that into matches. If they do that, however, players will be barred from using their 'Mechs because someone else picked something with a value that is too high.

3.) I do not play any of the newer nonsense, but I do have copies of some of the books to see what they have been doing with it. I do not dislike the Clans per se, but I rather dislike the munchkins that abuse them and are only drawn to them because of the shallow power. They decided to set this in the Invasion Era, so the Clans should be the Clans, not a bunch of munchkins, so the game is enjoyable and accurate. The video games have never been all that accurate, and that was not because BattleTech just cannot translate over but was rather because it was always easier and cheaper to cut corners than doing it right from the start.

[phelancracken]

1. By what factor? The BV system works decently in the TT and I suspect due to the gunnery piloting not being a factor in computations, it most likely will be used. Why? It's already in place, it works, and they don't have to try and make up something that may not work as well. That's my opinion on that and I will state that as such. I may be right and maybe wrong. By using roleplay elements I will not agree no matter what as a "mandatory" route. An option for the player to follow, heartily agree.

2. Here's the thing, it sucks when you can't always run the machine you want but it's a fact of life. When you agree to a certain limit, you agree to not being able to run everything you want in a game. Been there, done that for decades.

3. I am going to say this, I have seen munchkins on both sides of the tech tree. Imagine an IS merc running a C3 company with clan tech and mechs. Try and balance that force. Not to mention, if they are Wolf's Dragoons with clan tech, they don't follow zell. They are mercs. It's been said in the Total Warfare ruleset about Zell, if it's used, clan players should have either superior skill sets or larger forces to compensate. Part of that is due to the limited maps most battles take place. For example, in Black Widow Company scenario pack, Queen's Gambit, fitting 24 mechs in 2 mapsheets is very tight. Archers are going to hate that kind of fighting for example. Now imagine a company of 3025 mechs to a star of clan mechs. How do they get their range advantage? Mighty hard to keep people at range if the maps are open fields and have to try and keep them beyond physical range. Even worse if the maps give cover where the IS mechs don't have a lot of open terrain to avoid while advancing.

4. So let's see, munchkins, again, seen it both sides, so it's not just clans, plus I have seen quite a few IS players in my time that aren't humble polite and just as power playing as any supposed clan player. It's not just the game, it's the person.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

1. By what factor? The BV system works decently in the TT and I suspect due to the gunnery piloting not being a factor in computations, it most likely will be used. Why? It's already in place, it works, and they don't have to try and make up something that may not work as well. That's my opinion on that and I will state that as such. I may be right and maybe wrong. By using roleplay elements I will not agree no matter what as a "mandatory" route. An option for the player to follow, heartily agree.

2. Here's the thing, it sucks when you can't always run the machine you want but it's a fact of life. When you agree to a certain limit, you agree to not being able to run everything you want in a game. Been there, done that for decades.

3. I am going to say this, I have seen munchkins on both sides of the tech tree. Imagine an IS merc running a C3 company with clan tech and mechs. Try and balance that force. Not to mention, if they are Wolf's Dragoons with clan tech, they don't follow zell. They are mercs. It's been said in the Total Warfare ruleset about Zell, if it's used, clan players should have either superior skill sets or larger forces to compensate. Part of that is due to the limited maps most battles take place. For example, in Black Widow Company scenario pack, Queen's Gambit, fitting 24 mechs in 2 mapsheets is very tight. Archers are going to hate that kind of fighting for example. Now imagine a company of 3025 mechs to a star of clan mechs. How do they get their range advantage? Mighty hard to keep people at range if the maps are open fields and have to try and keep them beyond physical range. Even worse if the maps give cover where the IS mechs don't have a lot of open terrain to avoid while advancing.

4. So let's see, munchkins, again, seen it both sides, so it's not just clans, plus I have seen quite a few IS players in my time that aren't humble polite and just as power playing as any supposed clan player. It's not just the game, it's the person.

1.) BV could work. I am not opposed to it. The effect would be the same. I am just not sure that a F2P game would use that system. Why would people work hard or pay real money for an expensive 'Mech that they never get to use? They have to figure that out. Introducing the role-play elements could achieve the same balance while allowing people to use what they want.

2.) They want to make money. I have played other F2P games that had zero balance because they wanted people to buy the best stuff. This game will not be like that, but I also do not see them restricting things to the point that people are actually discouraged from spending money. If you only get to use your Assault 'Mech once in a blue moon, why spend actual money?

3.) Munchkins were basically nonexistent before the Clans. Even the original Level 2 Star League technology was not that big of a deal. It was the Clantech that made things crazy, and it then kept getting worse as the Inner Sphere had to rise to the munchkin level.

4.) Are there Inner Sphere munchkins? Yes, I have played in clubs with guys that wanted to mount Clantech on every single design. Does that somehow negate the munchiness of the Clans? No, because they are supposed to use the same munch in every design. Inner Sphere munchkins are typically considered as such for trying to mimic the Kings of Munch.

[phelancracken]

1. We don't know if BV will work for sure. I will be the first to admit it, although, being a proven system, it does have a certain logic of using it as much as possible.

2. That's something the Devs will have to figure out. I know that forcing role playing on someone will tend to drive people who are casual gamers away. The ones that usually don't go beyond the stock mechs and play the game as a game first. Also, you can't spend actual money to get assualt mechs. I know from experience, that playing tabletop and having a set limit on forces, whether tonnage, points, CV or BV, it does make you choose what you truly want to play more carefully.

3. I beg to differ. A munchkin wasn't a prevalent but with the better tech they did min max what was available to work the best for them. Even without the clans, those weapons would have come out. It was just a matter of how fast. Applying Extended Range tech to the mediums and smalls was a logical move. Expanding the Ultras to all sizes and the LB-Xs to all sizes again was a logical move.

4. Only an IS purist calls clans munch. They were introduced into the game as a more advanced force to give a flavor to the game that was lacking and it did help the game overall. You didn't have to play clans or even against them. That is the beauty of Battletech. You can choose what time and what factions are fighting day to day, literally. If someone is a truly IS, they would not want to play with any clan tech at all. I have no problems if someone wants to play clans. I only care that they play the game to enjoy it and it's enjoyable for everyone. How the TT as stood the test of time has shown me that with some flaws, it still works.

Edited by phelancracken, 06 July 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 06 July 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

1. We don't know if BV will work for sure. I will be the first to admit it, although, being a proven system, it does have a certain logic of using it as much as possible.

2. That's something the Devs will have to figure out. I know that forcing role playing on someone will tend to drive people who are casual gamers away. The ones that usually don't go beyond the stock mechs and play the game as a game first. Also, you can't spend actual money to get assualt mechs. I know from experience, that playing tabletop and having a set limit on forces, whether tonnage, points, CV or BV, it does make you choose what you truly want to play more carefully.

3. I beg to differ. A munchkin wasn't a prevalent but with the better tech they did min max what was available to work the best for them. Even without the clans, those weapons would have come out. It was just a matter of how fast. Applying Extended Range tech to the mediums and smalls was a logical move. Expanding the Ultras to all sizes and the LB-Xs to all sizes again was a logical move.

4. Only an IS purist calls clans munch. They were introduced into the game as a more advanced force to give a flavor to the game that was lacking and it did help the game overall. You didn't have to play clans or even against them. That is the beauty of Battletech. You can choose what time and what factions are fighting day to day, literally. If someone is a truly IS, they would not want to play with any clan tech at all. I have no problems if someone wants to play clans. I only care that they play the game to enjoy it and it's enjoyable for everyone. How the TT as stood the test of time has shown me that with some flaws, it still works.

1.) BV would be fine to a certain extent. The effect is the same, but it can be a bit bland when removed from the lore.

2.) The devs will figure it out. The difference between tabletop and MWO is that one person controls the entire force on the tabletop, so that is one person making a decision to maximize their force. In this, it would be people being forced to not use what they want because someone else used something that cost too much.

3.) Star League technology and Level 2 IS technology are better than Level 1, but it is not nearly as drastic as Clantech. Could a munchkin use only the newest and rarest 'Mechs and technology for an advantage? Sure. Would they be able to munch like they can with Clantech? Not even close. BattleMechs from 3050 are better than those in 3025, but that gap is not the same as between IS and Clan.

4.) I have played in clubs that refused to allow Clantech, and that decision was always spurred on by munchkins. I have never agreed with Inner Sphere players using Clantech unless it was justified in a club campaign according to established salvage rules. Of course, those munchkins can only exist because of the Clantech because, again, Star League technology did not allow nearly as much munch.

[phelancracken]

Sigh.

In TT, if you have say 10 players and divided into 2 sides, most generally, everyone picks their own mechs or equipment. Not one player controls one side in that case.

2. In TT, you forget one thing, if people agree to a limit before the game, which is how I have always played it, you had to make choices on what you wanted to play and would your favorite choice always be the right choice?

3. Umm, customized ramming mechs. example of supposed munchkin. You keep wanting to water down clan tech. How about we water down IS so they are back to the new level with the watered down clan? Or the game forces you to accept zell for the watered down tech as an IS player?

4. Star League allows for a LOT of munchkin so does Level 2. I can make some nasty mechs that would scare you. I keep seeing this and have come to the conclusion you want IS tech for both sides but your not saying it. Your codifying it by the clans need to be restricted. I can keep going all the time, but what gets me is that nearly all IS tech is nearly 600+ years old. So things should not progress?

[Donovan Jenks]

The Clans should be part of this but there needs to be a balance.

Traditionally Clan mechs are alot more expensive and depending on where you are you might not have access to the tech. These are elements that can easily be addressed.

In matches the advantage of clan technology can be balanced by numerical superiority. 2:1 odds significantly decreases the advantage and if you remember to NEVER egage any Clan mech at range then you have further removed their advantage.

[Hunson Abadeer]

phelancracken, on 07 July 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Sigh.

In TT, if you have say 10 players and divided into 2 sides, most generally, everyone picks their own mechs or equipment. Not one player controls one side in that case.

2. In TT, you forget one thing, if people agree to a limit before the game, which is how I have always played it, you had to make choices on what you wanted to play and would your favorite choice always be the right choice?

3. Umm, customized ramming mechs. example of supposed munchkin. You keep wanting to water down clan tech. How about we water down IS so they are back to the new level with the watered down clan? Or the game forces you to accept zell for the watered down tech as an IS player?

4. Star League allows for a LOT of munchkin so does Level 2. I can make some nasty mechs that would scare you. I keep seeing this and have come to the conclusion you want IS tech for both sides but your not saying it. Your codifying it by the clans need to be restricted. I can keep going all the time, but what gets me is that nearly all IS tech is nearly 600+ years old. So things should not progress?

First, yes, in that case. The vast majority of games played by the vast majority of people were not grand battles between numerous people on each side. Every club I have ever been in or watched pitted two players against each other, which is what I was referring to (obviously).

Second, I did not forget that. In fact, I specifically stated that people had to make choices for their force. If they had a favorite 'Mech/pilot, then they could work to include their favorite in most cases. That is NOT the same thing as a player being forced to not use their favorite 'Mech because other people got to pick their favorites, which took up a lot of BV/tonnage.

Third, you can point out rare cases of munch you can build with Inner Sphere tech, but that is like comparing a mole hill to Mount Everest. Also, STOP CREATING STRAW MEN. Not once have I said that Clantech should be watered down. I have said numerous times that it should be kept the way it was designed. The Clans have overpowered tech, which is balanced in other ways. I am not sure what you think you gain by trying to redefine my arguments while actually talking to me. I know what I am saying, and others can read what I'm saying. Let me reiterate this -- Clantech should not be watered down, but the Clans should be balanced as designed.

Finally, what are you even talking about? I said that Star League technology could be used to munch, but it is not even close to Clantech. You can see that just by comparing the weapons. Yes, I want the Clans to use Inner Sphere technology despite the countless times I have said that the Clans should have Clantech that is not nerfed in any way, shape, or form. I also really love how you want to ignore all fluff in favor of simplistically looking at the core rules, but you now want to use the fluff to justify Clantech's power.

[PewPew2]

Why is this turning into such a discussion?????? BATTLE VALUE will solve this problem jeez..............

[Rejarial Galatan]

i am sure BV can be a solution, but, till the Devs say, we just will not know

[phelancracken]

I agree PewPew2, but we have people who want to add things and violate the KISS method. I am sure the Game Designers would rather follow a method that simple, robust, and if possible, proven to work that they can use without having to create a new system.

Hudsen, adding things to the system to supposedly, "balance" the clans better is one way of watering them down. If you make them more expensive, your watering them down. If someone was using say 3 mediums and 2 heavies per star to fight a IS company and suddenly with a revise they go to 1 light, 3 mediums, and 1 heavy, that's a watering down of the clan forces.

Like I have said quite a few times, BV has been a proven system, I don't know for sure that the Devs will use BV, but there is a logic that they will. Simple, robust, and proven. Not to mention, they don't have to come up with their own system which can save time and money.

I won't say BV is perfect, but I haven't come up with a better system so there we are.

I also like it when I give an example of munchkin on the IS side you say I am creating straw men. Just ROTFL! You should know if customs are allowed, that is a possibility. When the customs come out, you have the power gamers come out no matter what level of tech.

I have seen it where it's routine to have multiple players in one game. So, I come for that point of view a lot. In fact, rarely see multiple games of only 2 players per game in CBT. Most people want to play in the same game together. So, what your saying is rare where I have played, in multiple states. In fact, haven't read about that much in the CBT forums either from games put on in the forums either official games or casual games. Even campaigns.

Edited by phelancracken, 08 July 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[phelancracken]

Oh,

Hudsen,

I have one thing that's uber munchkin that the clans don't have. Chameleon Polarization system. Only found on the Spector and Exterminator mechs. Thank the good Lord that hasn't been allowed in the game system.