46 replies to this topic

[happy mech]

• netcode - if there is not proper collision detection at higher speeds, melee will not work well
  
• collision detection - after the collisions work well, you can tell which part hit which part (for example leg vs leg, arm vs ct)
  
• body movement - so when hitting the mechs works, commands for moving the body can be implemented (extend arm, kick)

effects of melee ( = any physical contact, depending on the force (mass, velocity, direction) and counter-force)

• damage
  
• cockpit shake
  
• mech trips the other mech
  
• mech fails to hit, loses balance and falls
  
• mech with jjs touching anything in air is knocked down

[Koniving]

YueFei, on 25 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Falling down from a missed kick I could understand. Although even that should be rare.

Falling in general from melee is rare. The issue is that both the pilot and the mech are anticipating impact resistance. Rather than swinging out to punch something yourself with lightning fast human reflexes (which is what your pilot also sort of expects to be able to pull off), you go to swing. You expect to put your 90 ton mechanized fist into some 100 ton machine, only to swing and get air. Now nothing is stopping your 90 ton body, of which more than 50 tons is no longer balanced above your legs while your legs are likely still 'moving' at a set speed, with your entire body beginning to lean. The obvious human reaction is to extend a leg out and stop.

But your throttle is still locked into position. So the machine still has the command to keep moving forward, and thus it MUST keep moving forward. Meanwhile you yourself are beginning to panic, because you know balance is off. The Gyros try to compensate, but they had allowed for balance to be off for the attack to commence. The issue mainly is timing. Can you pull out of the punch quickly enough to recover.

Most of the time the answer is yes.
Sometimes... it is not.

Being attacked during a punch, as almost every situation in Battletech does entail, also complicates matters.
If MWO depicts an AC/20 as powerful enough to cause an Atlas to jolt to one side... and that same AC/20 back in more ragdoll methods of death could launch an Atlas into the air....imagine what happens when you are trying to pull yourself out of a punch when the AC/20 hits?

Also, think of it a bit like this.

[RedDragon]

YueFei, on 25 January 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

I never understood why a mech could fall over from trying to punch. Mechs may be slow and cumbersome compared to a human being, but I always imagined them moving with some grace rather than being clumsy.

IIRC mechs don't fall when punching. The pilot only has to roll if he misses a kick. I may be wrong on that because I didn't play for a long time, but I'm quite sure there are no pilot rolls for missed punches.

[RedDragon]

Koniving, on 25 January 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

This is a combination of multiple images.

So a little bit more than buttons, sure, (the kick controls is literally 2 switches and the mech punch and grab controllers are 3 switches) but would you really want your melee attack delayed like that (having to do more advanced controls) when this game already defies the laws of physics with things like near-instant stop for light mechs and such?

Far as Stalkers and the like, quite simply you don't punch. Kick instead. I even used a Locust as an example.

What I mentioned was actually partly in knowing the fact that hit detection is awful (it is on DayZ as well, and all melee is 'aimed' like guns) which is why I was against the idea of having to aim and press a button.

But yeah, the basic collision attacks are best as they are simply forms of ramming. Want to jump kick? Ram while airborne; it worked really well in the past and was more than satisfying enough.

Ah I almost knew that this image would pop up I have the book somewhere but was to lazy to look it up. Never noticed that there are actually controls for that. But although this pic is in an official sourcebook, one has to remember that it shows a typical and (I guess) rather simplified cockpit (it's labeled as the one from the Grand Titan IIRC).
There are so many different illustrations and descriptions of cockpits ... literally every author creates a new one. I remember a novel where a glove is described that the pilot uses to coordinate finger- and hand movement of the mech.

And realistically speaking, something as punching can in no way be controlled by a few switches. I'd guess they are more like security switches to lock the hand actuator etc., but the actual movement will be done by joystick, glove or whatever device the pilot uses.

And while I personally wouldn't have a problem with some mechs lacking arms for melee, I'm sure the forums would melt down by the sh*tstorm following the announcement that someone's favorite mech won't be able to punch

[happy mech]

RedDragon, on 25 January 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

And while I personally wouldn't have a problem with some mechs lacking arms for melee, I'm sure the forums would melt down by the sh*tstorm following the announcement that someone's favorite mech won't be able to punch

so you can ram

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

1 - Proper collisions (clipping) between mechs needs to be in before hand-to-hand can really function. Knockdowns are not relevant.

2 - Once mechs clip with each other properly, PGI could add two attack commands: Punch and Kick. These could be mapped to the standard weapon groups, or they could be separate commands (like using modules or power up / shut down).

3 - Punching would only be available if you have lower arm actuators. Hand actuators would give you a damage boost to punches. Make a punch a simple jab toward the arm cursor, limiting animation constraints and mechanical issues.

4 - Kicking would be available to anyone. If you are moving when you issue a kick command, it would kill your throttle. Once you are stationary, the kick would execute. It'd be a simple front kick aimed at the torso crosshair.

5 - As a stretch goal, integrate hand-to-hand combat into a wider gyro/balance system, along with ramming damage, knockdowns, etc. This, however is only a stretch goal and is not necessary for basic hand-to-hand to be added.

[Hotthedd]

Joseph Mallan, on 25 January 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

I'd Assign
P= Punch
K=Kick
and let the rest be someone else's headache.

This.


Because I REALLY want to see someone accidentally eject while trying to kick.

[Shaggath]

it's simulation kick with a mech it's impossible they just fall.
Mech lore have melee weapon if you arm have an hand actuator.

Edited by Shaggath, 25 January 2015 - 02:12 PM.

[Davers]

Shaggath, on 25 January 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

it's simulation kick with a mech it's impossible they just fall.
Mech lore have melee weapon if you arm have an hand actuator.

Hmmm…a lance of Commandos running around with hatchets sounds like proper mayhem.

[HlynkaCG]

Simplest way to implement melee attacks IMO would be to go the HALO route and just have an "attack" button. With the attack animation, damage, and speed varying from chassis to chassis. A humanoid mech with a full set of actuators like a Comando or Atlas might throw a quick jab or two while an armless mech like the catapult or raven might execute a short jump + kick.

[Alistair Winter]

I would personally not want to see mechs with the ability to punch and kick into the air at the push of a button, like people spamming the knife attack in CounterStrike or similar FPS games. It looks dumb, and people are likely to do it a lot.

I'd rather see a choreographed event that can be triggered when two mechs are standing relatively still in close proximity. I don't think you can get away with stuff like an Atlas picking up a Locust an slamming it into the ground. It would probably be a generic attack animation for each mech, and a generic reaction animation, like when a mech gets hit by an AC20.

Frankly, there's so many ways this can go wrong, I'm kind of daunted by the idea. I think I would maybe prefer it if only mechs with melee weapons could do melee attacks, because I'm worried it'll look too dumb when a tiny Adder with its ridiculous fists-on-sticks punches an assault mech in the thigh. Worse yet, a pack of Mist Lynxes punching a Stalker to death.

[Burktross]

happy mech, on 25 January 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

so you can ram

and kick!

Alistair Winter, on 25 January 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

I would personally not want to see mechs with the ability to punch and kick into the air at the push of a button, like people spamming the knife attack in CounterStrike or similar FPS games. It looks dumb, and people are likely to do it a lot.

We should, by this logic, apply the same suggestion for traditional weapons as well. It looks dumb when an AC/fourmillion Dire Wolf unloads into the heavens as we leave dropzones.

[Ovion]

Yeah, it's why you limit it in other ways.

Arm weapon cooldown + melee cooldown for fist/melee weapon.
Torso weapon and JJ cooldown + melee cooldown for kick.
Fairly straight forward really.

[Zen Idiot]

Mechs with hand actuators should be the only mechs allowed to punch. or at least handless mechs should punch worse.

[Burktross]

ZenIdiot, on 25 January 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Mechs with hand actuators should be the only mechs allowed to punch. or at least handless mechs should punch worse.

1 pt damage per ten tons rounded down and 2pts damage to punching arm, I'd think is fair

[Insects]

I would start by introducing a dedicated melee weapon, like an Axe.
Only enable it for the weapon so it must be equipped and every mech can't spam it.

See how that goes with game balance and the games collision and lag issues before expanding its usage.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

This is never gonna happen. But I would like a way to grab an enemy firestarter by the legs and use him to beat a dire whale into the ground. Two for one.

Honestly though. If they can get punching and kicking in. That would be great.

[El Bandito]

Make it so that only upright mechs can kick--or give extra kick damage to upright mechs. Chicken walkers can go piss themselves.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 January 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

El Bandito, on 25 January 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

Make it so that only upright mechs can kick--or give extra kick damage to upright mechs. Chicken walkers can go piss themselves.

Actually chicken walkers with jump jets should be able to kick when jumping. But I will agree with the ground bound ones not being able to.

[El Bandito]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 25 January 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

Actually chicken walkers with jump jets should be able to kick when jumping. But I will agree with the ground bound ones not being able to.

We can simply give all jumpers DFA instead. After all, this game is not Final Fight, where you spam jumpkicks.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 January 2015 - 06:42 PM.