55 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Standard Hunchie 4G build is:
Standard 250 engine
DHS, Endo, Ferro
4 tons of AC20 ammo
1 AC 20
Season with lasers to taste.

Obviously, your mileage may vary, but there are very few times when this mech won't work. Maybe you can tweak the build to work a bit better for you, but this is a good starting point. The only problem - you're in for a rough road on huge maps, especially Alpine, where getting close to brawl is a pain. Hang back and stay near ECM or AMS in those cases. Eventually, a brawl will happen, and a fresh AC20 Hunchback is a nasty surprise at that point.

[bobobobobiy]

So running more than one DHS is redundant? I tried it once, but found that I kept overheating.

Should the medium lasers just be backup?

[Void Angel]

If you are using an AC/20 and two Medium Laser - with just the 250 engine and no additional heat sinks - your combat time before overheat on a neutral map will end up being forty-seven seconds. That is a tactical eternity. Even if you are fighting in a hot place on a hot map, you can simply hold off on using your lasers to manage heat. (Many of my builds use an array of lasers to mediate heat buildup this way; simply stop firing them for a huge boost to combat endurance, or use them if you need the extra oomph.) Use the Weapon Lab tool in Smurfy's Mechlab to check how long you can expect to keep fighting with various builds.

[Wintersdark]

Soulscour, on 03 February 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

The 4G build is with the 250 engine and all upgrades. Its posted many times in many 4G threads which is one of the more talked about mechs since quirks. Smaller engine sizes are playable but not as good. Case in point the build Wintersdark posted

HBK-4G

vs

HBK-4G

extra leg armor vs 9kph and better heat efficiency? Come on....

A valid argument and a reasonable option. It's not a blinding difference, though. 9kph+an extra 0.6 dissipation isn't a really big thing, and you're losing 12 armor of each leg to do that.

Wether that's a good sacrifice or not depends very heavily on your personal gaming experience.

For me, legs are a prime target for almost everyone. It's become a habit post-CW. Stripping down 48 > 36 armor in legs carrying half of your ammo each is a really dangerous thing to do in my circles.

So, the posted build above is better than mine *IF* people don't target legs in your circles, as you gain a little bit more speed and a tiny bit more dissipation as a result. If people DO target legs, though, it's extremely dangerous.

It's certainly not the "no brainer" you make it appear to be, however.

Void Angel, on 03 February 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

If you are using an AC/20 and two Medium Laser - with just the 250 engine and no additional heat sinks - your combat time before overheat on a neutral map will end up being forty-seven seconds. That is a tactical eternity. Even if you are fighting in a hot place on a hot map, you can simply hold off on using your lasers to manage heat. (Many of my builds use an array of lasers to mediate heat buildup this way; simply stop firing them for a huge boost to combat endurance, or use them if you need the extra oomph.) Use the Weapon Lab tool in Smurfy's Mechlab to check how long you can expect to keep fighting with various builds.

This is basically why I argue the dissipation difference between a STD250 or a STD225+1DHS is largely irrelevant. It's just not that big a difference. At 3ML's, excluding the HBK's ML heat quirks, Smurfy says 25 vs 26 seconds to overheat. It's longer (I'm too lazy to fire up Li Song to check w/ quirks) but ultimately very similar. Regardless, you're still not overheating, as you say - just stop firing ML's when heatcapped. The quirked AC20 is more than adequate

Now, I'm not saying the 225 is a better build, it's just a different build. God knows, in the circles I play in, stripping a quarter of the armor off each leg is a death sentence. Still, YMMV.

Edited by Wintersdark, 03 February 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[bobobobobiy]

Wait, so if I upgrade to DHS, do I get the bonuses for all the heatsinks the engine includes, or just the ones I actually drag onto my 4G?

[Havyek]

Like it or not, this is what I use:
HBK-4G

With the quirks, it runs fairly cool. I've rarely been legged (though it's not my primary chassis to run) and you're going to want to stick near the assaults as has been mentioned.

Edited by Havyek, 03 February 2015 - 08:17 PM.

[Void Angel]

bobobobobiy, on 03 February 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

Wait, so if I upgrade to DHS, do I get the bonuses for all the heatsinks the engine includes, or just the ones I actually drag onto my 4G?

You get bonuses for all of them - in fact the sinks that come with the engine (but not any you drag and drop onto the 'mech, even if they're in a high-rated engine) are true double heat sinks, with a 2.0 cooling efficiency. Any DHS you add manually are going to have 1.4 cooling - though of course this is all affected by your 'mech mastery skills.

For all of that to make sense, you should know that PGI found very early that true DHS provided so much cooling that certain weapons were thrown out of balance. Rather than re-tune a bunch of weapons, they adjusted the "Double" Heat Sinks down to a 1.4 cooling multiplier instead of 2.0 - to the frothing rage of wannabe Battletech fanboys everywhere.

(I personally would have preferred a faster cooldown with a lower heat cap; it would have prevented the later problems with high-alpha builds - but the amount of pants-wetting rage and silly objections is over the top. Don't let the professionally dissatisfied ragers fool you - most of us are sane, dry-pantsed adults.)

Edited by Void Angel, 03 February 2015 - 08:56 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Kind of off topic, but related...

We have Truedubs now in practice. After efficiencies and such, at around 17-19 total dhs we're getting 2dissipation per dhs. At fewer, we get better than 2.0

Just saying.

[Soulscour]

bobobobobiy, on 03 February 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

So running more than one DHS is redundant? I tried it once, but found that I kept overheating.

Should the medium lasers just be backup?

When closing the gap to a mech mediums are handy. When finishing off a mech or targeting a specific spot to be blown off medium lasers give you the extra punch. They are also good at taking down the uavs and making shots that are not worth wasting a AC20 round like fast moving mechs moving laterally at a distance. Combining medium lasers when taking potshots around corners or cresting hills is also good. At close range brawling AC20 by itself gives you higher dps.

Edited by Soulscour, 04 February 2015 - 09:09 AM.

[Dakkaface]

bobobobobiy, on 02 February 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

So I've been looking around the forums for 4G builds, but can't really find a good one. Some like the 3 ML, but that means no heatsinks, which is bad news for anything that generates heat. Others say use one ML on the head, as it simplifies aiming and you can strip the arms. I use one ML on the left arm, so I can wave it around easily.

Should I ditch ML's? I tried it once, but I ended up as a sitting duck if a light got close up and took off my AC 20. On the other hand, I almost never use ML's if I'm brawling due to the heat.

HBK-4G: Optimized Classic Hunch
I stick with the classic AC/20+3ML. I use a STD 225 + one double, strip 9 armor from each leg, and carry 4.5 tons of ammo for the cannon. You only get 80kph out of it, but that's fine for an assault escort. Runs hot, but you just have to remember that the ML's are backup weapons. Hammer on the AC/20 and only splash the lasers when you aren't sure of a shot or you're out of ammo. If you are playing peekaboo around corners or hill humping you can fire lasers and the 20 since you'll have time to cooldown.

[stalima]

the 4G's biggest asset is that shoulder, pretty much anything that centres around putting hard hitting ballistics in there is good, it doesnt need to go any faster due to the fact its a mech that prefers getting perfect shots off so its 64.8kph is perfectly fine to function with, its compact nature and compressed damage makes it a complete pain to deal with at choke points as well as when its peeking over hills.

if you want to be moving faster then you seriously should be using the 4H and not the 4G, the 4H isnt quite as centred around the shoulder and is more spread around the arms with the lasers and so hitting perfectly isnt such a big deal with that.

as for the 4G, gut it out and stuff 2 ultra autocannons in there with as much space saving as possible with a spare head laser when it runs out, the profit is real, take armour off the left side in order to accomodate its right side firepower, your going to take a massive dip of near 75% if that goes down anyway so just protect that shoulder and blast stuff...

[Soulscour]

stalima, on 08 February 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

the 4G's biggest asset is that shoulder, pretty much anything that centres around putting hard hitting ballistics in there is good, it doesnt need to go any faster due to the fact its a mech that prefers getting perfect shots off so its 64.8kph is perfectly fine to function with, its compact nature and compressed damage makes it a complete pain to deal with at choke points as well as when its peeking over hills.

if you want to be moving faster then you seriously should be using the 4H and not the 4G, the 4H isnt quite as centred around the shoulder and is more spread around the arms with the lasers and so hitting perfectly isnt such a big deal with that.

as for the 4G, gut it out and stuff 2 ultra autocannons in there with as much space saving as possible with a spare head laser when it runs out, the profit is real, take armour off the left side in order to accomodate its right side firepower, your going to take a massive dip of near 75% if that goes down anyway so just protect that shoulder and blast stuff...

Why are you telling people not to use the quirks for the Hunchback 4G. 25% AC20 range 25% AC20 cooldown 25% AC20 velocity, not to mention the energy quirks you're telling people to drop. They are some of the best in the game. You are telling people to be stationary targets peaking over hilltops because where a ac20 has to expose the shoulder for a fraction of a second, UAC5 have to stay on the target when laying down fire. Mobility gets the hunchback where it needs to be when it needs to be which prevents damage and lets it dish out the damage. Without that speed it is just inferior to heavy mechs. You do not get scores like this going 64kph

Edited by Soulscour, 09 February 2015 - 12:42 AM.

[Mondeza]

Soulscour, on 09 February 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Mobility gets the hunchback where it needs to be when it needs to be which prevents damage and lets it dish out the damage. Without that speed it is just inferior to heavy mechs. You do not get scores like this going 64kph

I have to agree here. A HBK at 64kph is just waiting to be cut down. HBK at 80kph or above is a force to be afraid of.

[stalima]

Soulscour, on 09 February 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Why are you telling people not to use the quirks for the Hunchback 4G. 25% AC20 range 25% AC20 cooldown 25% AC20 velocity, not to mention the energy quirks you're telling people to drop. They are some of the best in the game. You are telling people to be stationary targets peaking over hilltops because where a ac20 has to expose the shoulder for a fraction of a second, UAC5 have to stay on the target when laying down fire. Mobility gets the hunchback where it needs to be when it needs to be which prevents damage and lets it dish out the damage. Without that speed it is just inferior to heavy mechs. You do not get scores like this going 64kph

even with the extra range, the AC20 is just too short range for my taste, by the time your that close your probably going to get cut down by a bigger mech with two AC20s and that shoulder will drop off very quickly.

and secondly you didnt read my post correcly for one simple fact: "the 4G's biggest asset is that shoulder, pretty much anything that centres around putting hard hitting ballistics in there is good"

not to mention the fact the OP was asking for builds, the 4G already starts with a fairly optimal build for the mech as a whole so even mentioning any build with an AC20 would be pointless

and to put my point across further, the bonus is only 12.5% in comparison to other ballistics... and the twin UAC 5 has a superior dps overall even without.

Edited by stalima, 09 February 2015 - 12:38 PM.

[bobobobobiy]

So I should stick with a 245 engine (don't have a 250), and only one heatsink?

It's pretty fast with speed tweek, so should I swap back to the 200 for more ammo and lasers?

[YueFei]

stalima, on 09 February 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

even with the extra range, the AC20 is just too short range for my taste, by the time your that close your probably going to get cut down by a bigger mech with two AC20s and that shoulder will drop off very quickly.

Against a mech with 2xAC20, it's possible to corner peek in such a way that they can only hit you back with 1 of those AC20s. If you got good footwork, you can use the HBK-4G's quirked-out AC20 to hit the guy twice by the time he hits you with 1 AC20. You turn the corner so only half of his mech is showing towards you.

I can't do it reliably, because my footwork sucks, but I've seen other players do it. I've managed to do it against really bad players sometimes.

If you have really really good footwork and positioning, you can even hit the guy while he literally cannot shoot back at you. But that requires that you be farther from the corner than he is so that you'll see him before he sees you, and then you also gotta be faster than him so you can roll away before he can retaliate.

[Bleary]

Don't cut lasers unless you have to. Don't be distracted by the big gun; it's big, and it's the reason you're driving the 4G, but 3 MLs still almost doubles your alpha. They also help you cut the legs off pesky lights. It used to be common to cut the RA laser because it was assumed the hunch would be among the first locations to go, but after the durability quirks that's much less of an issue.

Run a 250 engine. You want the 10 engine heatsinks. You want the speed. Not just for closing to range; you also want the extra start/stop for popping the gun more quickly around terrain, and you want the faster circle against heavy 'Mechs in a brawl. A fully upgraded Hunchback with a 250 engine can already mount as much as a Hunch will carry; the 1-2 tons you save by downgrading to a 230 or less engine don't really let you bring anything except more ammo.

Which you shouldn't need, as you can already load 28 shots with the 250 build, or 35 if you get a little risky and shave the limbs (in my experience -contrary to the fella above- people in public matches invariably fire at a Hunchback's torso. Different story in CW perhaps, but I'd rather run a 4P or GI in CW anyway). That's 6-700 potential damage before lasers. That's enough. If you hit with your shots and run your cannon dry you're going to be near the top of the team.

Edited by Bleary, 10 February 2015 - 02:48 AM.

[N a p e s]

Bleary, on 10 February 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

Don't cut lasers unless you have to. Don't be distracted by the big gun; it's big, and it's the reason you're driving the 4G, but 3 MLs still almost doubles your alpha. They also help you cut the legs off pesky lights. It used to be common to cut the RA laser because it was assumed the hunch would be among the first locations to go, but after the durability quirks that's much less of an issue.

Run a 250 engine. You want the 10 engine heatsinks. You want the speed. Not just for closing to range; you also want the extra start/stop for popping the gun more quickly around terrain, and you want the faster circle against heavy 'Mechs in a brawl. A fully upgraded Hunchback with a 250 engine can already mount as much as a Hunch will carry; the 1-2 tons you save by downgrading to a 230 or less engine don't really let you bring anything except more ammo.

Which you shouldn't need, as you can already load 28 shots with the 250 build, or 35 if you get a little risky and shave the limbs (in my experience -contrary to the fella above- people in public matches invariably fire at a Hunchback's torso. Different story in CW perhaps, but I'd rather run a 4P or GI in CW anyway). That's 6-700 potential damage before lasers. That's enough. If you hit with your shots and run your cannon dry you're going to be near the top of the team.

STD250 with 3xMlas, an AC20 and 4 tons of ammo? Can you share a smurfy link please?

Edit: Played around in smurfy's and this is the only way I'd do it. HBK-4G but honestly that's pretty light on armor... sure the arms don't intercept much incoming damage but you'll be losing your lasers pretty quickly.

Edited by PowerOfNapes, 10 February 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[TripleEhBeef]

I guess I'm an oddity running a STD 200, AC20 w/4 tons, and 3 MPLs. I find the 4P more suited to faster engine builds.

FYI to the OP. The Hunchback is a completely different beast with Elite efficiencies unlocked. Getting to Elite will open up a few more builds for you.

[Soulscour]

PowerOfNapes, on 10 February 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

STD250 with 3xMlas, an AC20 and 4 tons of ammo? Can you share a smurfy link please?

Edit: Played around in smurfy's and this is the only way I'd do it. HBK-4G but honestly that's pretty light on armor... sure the arms don't intercept much incoming damage but you'll be losing your lasers pretty quickly.

Thats a pretty accurate build but maybe a little more back armor. Sometimes you're using that speed to withdraw from fights you dont want to be in or torso twisting sometimes exposes the back. If the arms go first that is a good thing. That means your opponent is shooting the wrong spot, missing, or your torso twisting is spot on. The lasers are still worth having. If played right the hunchback is not the center of attention when it comes to enemy fire. That and you need arm lasers to shoot down enemy uav, and the head laser because its the last weapon you'll have.

Edited by Soulscour, 10 February 2015 - 09:21 PM.