45 replies to this topic

[TimberJon]

Clans had their own currency as well. Honor points sounds like it implies some other achievement. And they may well have plans to integrate something like that later.

Edited by TimberJon, 29 June 2012 - 07:57 AM.

[aRottenKomquat]

Arganosh, on 29 June 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

I am in a light I am the last of my team to be killed. So I call for Zellbrigen, So I then do everything to avoid combat and run out the game timer and cause there to be a draw. so I make you lose. yeah I'd go for it.

That's against the rules of Zellbrigen (according to sarna) so chances are the entire enemy team would also stop playing by the rules and attack you. Zellbrigen is supposed to prevent you from leaving weapons range or taking cover.

[Jess Hazen]

in a real time action based game it is going to be damned near impossible to impliment. also many clans revised their honour code of conduct from strict to lenient for when they deal with the IS, because it was becoming to large of a disadvantage to them since IS doesn't play with the clans game of honour.

[Fire and Salt]

I saw a post by someone else... a merc...

They said... "sure, I accept" but their plan would be to narc the clanner and then gave their lance open fire.


I thought that was simply awesome, and totally in the spirit of this game.
I think a merc in some cases would be commended for his ability to get the job done.



How about a 100% peer review based honor score. Clarify that it is for things like legging, deception, etc... not cheating like lagging intentionally etc.



That way clanners can rp their honor and mercs can rp their grittyness if they choose.

It should have no impact on points or xp though, just for rp purposes.

[Athena93]

I have been going through these forums reading one great idea for implementing Zellibrigen after another. But the same thought comes up time and time again. Sure it would be great from a lore and a MW/BT fan perspective. But is it good for the game?

For this game to be successful and long lasting, it is going to need to have mass appeal. It can not hold only on the patronage of the BT Universe fans. The fact that we all need to realize is that there are going to be many prospective customers that will only be interested in this game because of the "shooty shooty big robots" aspect. They are not going to care about any "silly lore stuff" (lol lore) or even concepts of honor. They just want to pilot big robots and shoot other big robots.

There are going to be a lot of these types of players. In fact, I would guess as this game goes along, they will become the majority. We need these players and customers if this game is going to continue to be sustainable.

Are they going to accept the idea of two separate rules and mechanics just for the sake of lore?

Can Zellibrigen ever be a good idea from a financial standpoint in a game marketed for the masses? In the end, for this game to continue, it needs to make PGI an acceptable level of profit. You can call it "selling out," but if it allows the game to continue on for many a wonderful year, then isn't it worth it?

[Jiri Starrider]

Kael Tropheus, on 29 June 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

Its fairly easy to implement. I have posted this elsewhere but here we go. Clan economics revolve around honor. Seeing as most clan warriors are not paid and find trading a distasteful practice of the lesser castes. Honor is gained during fights in a similar way that IS pilots earn C-bills just for simplicities sake and they can spend this honor to requisition new mechs, make repairs, ammo etc.

As for Zell when the first shot is fired at an enemy mech, that targetted mech's icon changes color(like WoW does once a target is engaged, simple). If a starmate fires upon and hits the same mech, a Grand Melee begins and it is a free for all. That pilot that broke Zell takes a 75% honor penalty for the overall match. If that penalty isnt severe enough, perhaps 80-85% penalty. It needs to be high enough to actually discourage breaking Zell.

Furthermore to reflect clan behavior in trying to out do each other a clan mech pilot recieves a progressive bonus or penalty on Honor points based on the size of the enemy mechs they take down. A Puma pilot will get massive bonus points for taking out an Atlas, while a Dire Wolf pilot might not get any honor for taking out a Commando, but they wont lose any either, an enemy mech is still an enemy mech. An equal tonnage matchup would be the base honor gained for destroying the enemy and then go up or down based on that, maybe 5% per 5 tons.

This is a very simple and self regulating method of control for the clans. You wont see near as many munchkins or power gamers play for long when they cant afford to repair their Dire Wolves because they got stupid or didnt pay attention to the code, those players will eventually get mad at the restrictive but fluff accurate system and go back to playing IS mechs.

^This.

You would still have people gaming the system as this is a business and PGI will not prevent people from spending real $'s to convert. Unless there just isn't a clan equivalent of MC, but I'll bet there will be.

Also, the clans didn't wait till who shot which mech first to "claim" a target. There should be some sort of designation system. Would also encourage the clan tendency to use the least amount of mech possible. The faster mechs will get into lock on range sooner and be able to designate a target before the slower ones.

[CCC Dober]

@Looney
That's a very good question. 'Selling the game out' may keep it alive, but it may also shorten its lifetime or appeal to the fans.
Ideally we could have both at the same time. If both sides of the match can agree on Zell (gentlemen's agreement in case of IS vs Clan), then it's a deal. Otherwise both sides know exactly what's cooking and don't need to hold back, maybe even switch tactics completely. Ruthless behavior of Clanners in combat is not unheard of, given the right circumstances, and will surely add to their bad reputation. So yeah, it's possible to do both and it's feasible.

@skamage
Roger that. He's on the 'speshul' list.

Edited by CCC Dober, 29 June 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[Jiri Starrider]

The Looney One, on 29 June 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

Are they going to accept the idea of two separate rules and mechanics just for the sake of lore?

The whole IP is "just for the sake of lore". Coulda just made the whole kit and kaboodle about generimecha and been reasonably sucessful IMO, but they chose the Battletech universe, and they chose the eve of the Clan invasion to set the starting time line in. So ya, I think they are doing it "just for the lore".

If they didn't want to do that they could have just gone with 3015 and reseen mechs (though hopefully better reseen's than the ones I have seen and wish I could unsee.)

[Tenrai]

Keyne, on 29 June 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

Here's an idea: Clan players don't earn c-bills from matches, they earn honor. Honor can be used Yo unlock new mechs, new tech, pilot skills, etc. Furthermore, honor is earned through preforming well while abiding by the rules of Zellibrigen. If you don't follow clan rules of engagement, honor is deducted. Honor should be built up, but not spent like c-bills are. Thoughts?

I like the idea but it then adds a new layer of economics that the devs need to implement.

[Reoh]

Conceptually I like the idea, but I have doubts about how it will translate into game.

Rather than tonnage, probably battle value (if it gets used at all) would be most accurate. If IS and Clan mechs aren't being balanced mech to mech, but rather numbers etc. vs tech then ton for ton the IS would be starting behind (until tech caught up, years IRL later). The inability to use terrain (another touted "balance" between factions) again skews things in favor of the Clans, and as a light pilot I consider terrain a valuable tactic and working with my team to call in fire a combat staple. Using whats available is practicaly a necessity when facing off against larger opponents (you can only challenge whats on the field, won't always be even). So we force everybody into assaults? As an IS pilot, i'm not seeing any reason to agree to Zel, but I can always vote no right? Except majority rules. I may now be put in a bad position where my mech could be trashed because some other players wanted to play duelist and drag the game out another 10mins. Uhoh, there goes a few players who would rather take the hit, repair and just requeue so maybe one side (either way) just had their odds of winning halved by this mechanic, which slows down gameplay for lore that gets notably abandoned by Tukayyid anyway.

But lets look at the other side, Clanners could rush in and mark units as theirs, and just troll at least some of the team into not getting honor. It's also assuming (both sides) the challenge won't be invalidated, and frankly i expect the majority of players to take whatever advantage they can to win. If the system is just going to be rejected or abandoned on a whim then what was the point of developing it and having players jump through hoops? If you instituted a peer review, then again a group of trolls could just screw with everyone, or just misinterpret their contribution to the game based on the scoreboard, in some games a lot of people don't even bother (SWTOR i'm looking at you). Their final Zel fight(s) only? How about new players that just don't get it yet, quickly find themselves honorless and dispossessed. While i like the lore of the idea, I just can't see it translating into game in a compelling fashion. The only upside point I can think of this is being potentially lore faithful (presuming every random pub was likely to honor it).

[CCC Dober]

Okay, we might be looking at it from the wrong perspective. Imagine Zell to be completely optional for a second. Not mandatory.

The incentive to agree on Zell would be in specific trials or batchalls/challenges in general. That is the Clan side of the equation.
The IS might have a house/unit specific honor system/pool or not (Kurita is famous for that). As for the rest of the houses, it may be interesting for them to minimize losses. Either through successfully beating the enemy commander in a duel to win the match or ask for hegira aka honorable withdrawal. Duels could also be used to buy time in order to achieve other objectives, allowing them to win the game before they run out of Mechs and time. Maybe even a price could be named, but this is up to the devs, how and if they can/want to handle that.

Apart from that, everything goes. So in a typical IS vs Clan game you wouldn't be able to turn it into a trial and can't expect adherence to Zell (at least the minimum level). The best you can hope for is when a target accepts your batchall/challenge and doesn't violate all conditions. Also in order to stop trolling or hogging honor, only one target can be marked. The exception could be a last man standing scenario in which case nobody could be trolled. But again, it would depend on the players on the other end of the challenge to accept or refuse. It's completely optional as I said.

Edited by CCC Dober, 29 June 2012 - 09:47 AM.

[Sleipnir]

CCC Dober, on 29 June 2012 - 09:46 AM, said:

Okay, we might be looking at it from the wrong perspective. Imagine Zell to be completely optional for a second. Not mandatory.

This was what I meant. It should NOT be mandatory by any means, it should be an optional "game mode" if you like, with some bonuses for all involved. It provides those that love the BT universe a much deeper gameplay element, and everyone has a good time. If you don't want to do it, vote no, kill the guy, next game.

Simple as that really.

The idea of honour as a currency is interesting, but I feel would make keeping a stable economy difficult for the dev's. I do think it could be used to unlock some RP elements though (unlock some skins or "historical texts" maybe?).

I see a few people talking about abusing the system - this is the number one concern for any game mechanic - I would trust the dev's to prevent this, but the idea of Zellbrigen being an auto-forfeit for the team, but giving an opportunity to recoup some repairs / gain honour and ultimately add a new element of life to the game can't be bad, right?

[Skylarr]

What is this like the 4th or 5th time someone has posted an idea how to include Zellbringing.

The one I posted a month ago was that a Mechwarrior would issue Zellbringing to another warrior. For as long as both sides Stay to the rules of Zellbringing both parties receive bonus Faction Points. If it is a Clanner against an IS warrior then the Warrior also recieved Faction points for that Clan. Then depending on the IS warriors lvl of FP with the clan he culd buy Clan Weapons and Equipment. IF the IS Warrior has High FPs he would be able to buy a Clan Mech.

[Skadi]

Targetloc, on 29 June 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

[Captain Fabulous]

Break Zellbringen, your engine explodes. End of story.

Edited by Captain Fabulous, 29 June 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[James Pryde IIC]

maybe as a Clanner, you loose honour / resorce points if u break Zell. Also honour and RP is used for upgrading and securing new tier mechs perhaps

have ur battle computer assign targets, (and punish you if you do not obey Zell)

[Skylarr]

You do not want to punish someone for not following Zelbringing. You reward someone for following it. Implimenting an Honor Point system and tracking it will encourage players to follow Zelbringing. A list showing everyones HP would give each Player bragging rights showing they follow Zell more than another player.

Who knows if this is even possible in the game. The Clans are probably almost a year away.

[Gremlich Johns]

the only way to make zellbrigen work in MWO is to make every player, regardless oif faction alliance, adhere to the protocols.

I cannot believe this subject is still being broached. Zell will not work unless everybody buys into it.

[Oy of MidWorld]

The Looney One, on 29 June 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

They are not going to care about any "silly lore stuff" (lol lore) or even concepts of honor. They just want to pilot big robots and shoot other big robots.

There are going to be a lot of these types of players. In fact, I would guess as this game goes along, they will become the majority. We need these players and customers if this game is going to continue to be sustainable.

Do we have to sacrifice what mechwarrior is about, for the sake of such players? I don't think so.

Would they accept a set of rules if it is made clear, and there are harsh penalties for breaking the rules? I think so.

Would many of them even see what's cool about this, and become mechwarriors eventually? I think so, yay!

[Athena93]

Oy of MidWorld, on 30 June 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Do we have to sacrifice what mechwarrior is about, for the sake of such players? I don't think so.

Would they accept a set of rules if it is made clear, and there are harsh penalties for breaking the rules? I think so.

Would many of them even see what's cool about this, and become mechwarriors eventually? I think so, yay!

1. It depends, if you want to keep the game going and if PGI wants the game to be profitable, you may have to make such concessions.

2. Please, inform me of another online game in which differing factions have their own set of rules and codes of conduct that are enforced? The average casual player is not going to play a game with two separate rule sets if it is going to get in the way of their "shooty shooty big robots" enjoyment. Heck, the TT players I have run into that take Zellbrigen seriously are few and far between.

Harsh penalties for breaking some honor code? Yeah, that will turn all but the most adamant fans away from the game.

3. Not if they find the rules too restrictive.

Actually, I do believe that Zellbrigen could work, initially. I'm going to guess that there the majority of the people here are fans of the IP and all that it entails. But, if this game becomes popular, and I do hope it does, that ratio of fans (who care about the lore) to casuals (who could not care less) will shift quickly toward the casual side. Casual players are not going to care about honor codes like Zellbrigen, especially if the other side doesn't have to abide by it. If they are forced to play that way, they will leave, and the game could very well die because of it.

You may be fine with that. You may feel that the game should not give up it's "soul" for the sake of profit or even sustainability. But will PGI feel the same way?