100 replies to this topic

[Davers]

While in theory combining the queues would have some benefits, such as better Elo/tonnage balanced matches and less wait time to find matches, in actual use it would still favour pre made groups. They will still have the ability coordinate their mechs, while pugs would still be a mismatch.

[darkkterror]

VOIP is not the only advantage that groups have. They also have a willingness to work together. By organizing a group outside of the match they have already demonstrated the capacity of working together with each other to achieve a common goal. VOIP isn't going to magically get rid of the solo players who completely ignore their teamates and rush off to die by themselves (practically contributing nothing to the match).

Also, don't forget that VOIP doesn't mean you'll be able to communicate with every one of your teammates. There are those who are vehemently against VOIP and will turn it off the instant it is added to the game.

[Jon Gotham]

F4T 4L, on 05 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Your suggestion would drive new players away. The two issues are linked.

You have to see that, no?

Maybe you're one of those hardcore BT guys, just wanna be left alone to play cw with your few hundred buddies..?

That's not sustainable tho, cos reality.

I'm not suggesting anything. I made the thread to DISCUSS the plusses and negatives of it and to find out the WHYS of each opinion. He said nothing on this particular topic in this thread, he merely cross posted to a slightly different topic.
Can we stay on topic please?

[Mawai]

Flaming oblivion, on 05 February 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

I think his point ended this post really.

The games struggling population wise as is we all know it.....


Driving new players away would be fatal at this point.

And that's what your suggestion would do.

They separated for this very reason to begin with , Because the forum goers would have you believe a few whiners caused the split.

Not true , Whining went on for months that im aware of ignored (probably years) Nothing was done till people like me just started leaving the game clearly enough did it to get PGIs attention.

Personally, I don't know it. I dropped in CW for the first week ... but I didn't enjoy it much and am waiting for them to iron out the kinks.

I almost always drop in the solo PUG queue ... mostly because when I do get the chance to play, I don't have the time to waste assembling any sort of group or waiting on others.

I have never had a problem getting a match. Very rarely do I see any team mates in consecutive PUG matches. From my personal experience there is NO way I could estimate the size of the MWO player base and whether they are gaining or losing players. The only thing I have seen recently is a half dozen troll "I quit" threads with the most ludicrous reasons attached ...

Maybe organized groups are suffering a bit because CW is either boring or too time intensive for some ... but how that reflects the attitudes or actions of the overall MWO community ... I have no idea.

On the topic of the OP ... in my opinion, solo queues are still essential even with VOIP and LFG tools because folks on a team coordinate better ... on top of that the folks in those teams will probably still be on an external team speak server and the internal voip channels can be turned off ... and some folks will do so. Adding VOIP might help but it in no way levels the playing field between random players and organized groups.

[Jon Gotham]

F4T 4L, on 05 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

[Redacted]

Was there any need for that?
The topic is "need for split queues" not driving new players away. It's why I made a different topic. To discuss this specific issue.
Please any more future posts, try to stay on topic and not flame each other, thank you:)

[Felbombling]

I will say this on the idea. I think you still need the solo queue so that players that are used to dropping solo can still do so, but at the same time learn to recognize their fellow players by voice and reputation with the help of the new features. Once that starts to happen, it is likely that many solo players will start extending invitations to each other to form smaller groups.

For myself, I have played as part of a four player group and as a solo player, but never within anything larger. This was back during closed Beta. Even then, when the queues were mixed with solo and groups together, the winning percentage of groups was ridiculous. The game is such that instant voice communications trump stopping all action and typing to the larger group by a MASSIVE margin. There is also forced delays as a group. Smoke breaks. Coffee, beer or pop breaks. Taking the dog out. Taking the garbage out. You name it. After many hours of that, coupled with the boredom of winning in rolfstomps, I fled to the solo queues.

There is a certain solitude to playing solo. You go answer the call of nature when you need to. You can grab your smoke, coffee, water, pop or beer when you want to. You can tinker in the Mech Lab to your hearts content without the added pressure of three to eleven other people waiting on you.

[norus]

Advantages of a 12 man group: communication, ability to follow orders or be kicked, ideal mech drops (plenty of ecm etc), pre built strategies that everyone knows, better teamwork in covering each other, no newbs in group.

Solo queue 12 man pug advantages: None. You can't even ensure they'll not have the voip muted.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

It used to BE one que and ppl BEGGED for a solo/group que

lets not backtrack please

[Carcass23]

We need a kiddie pool for those that cannot swim. We need a place for every person that cries because they are not rewarded for Rambo style tactics.

Speaking of tactics, that was one of the points made in an earlier post of why premade teams would rule. Because they have tactics. *thinks for a while about that* So, we need a place so we don't have to have tactics. Cause gosh, it's hard to follow a rudimentary plan! "But.. but... they are ALL shooting at ME!" Yes, that is called focused fire. "It's impossible for PUGs to direct fire at one target because I DO WHUT I WONT!"

By all means, keep the kiddie pool. The best argument I have heard so far is because it's a place you can play casually and not really worry about some self important tween screaming at you because you aren't playing to his specifications. "Thanks a lot for crippling us! Next time bring a meta!" Yeah, this part I definately agree with. Nothing worse than someone telling you that the mech or build you choose is bad and you are bad for bringing it. We're supposed to check with these guys first before dropping in anything other than a TDR.

[Screech]

A much easier route has always been allowing solo players into the group queue. I used to scoff at the notion but these days I pretty much only PUG in CW so not as alien idea to me as before.

Would expanding the group queue this way appease those who want to play against pugs?

[Scyther]

Consider why you are even asking this question: teams/groups want a joined queue so they will have shorter wait times, and frankly, easier fights against opponents who aren't as prepared/balanced/working together as they are.

You can say "Oh no we don't find those fights challenging or fun", which puts you BY FAR in the minority of the MMO PvP crowd who just want to pad their KDRs and WLR while raking in lots of extra cash and exp.

This offers NOTHING to the solo pug player queue except more opportunities to get rolled and told "lol join a real team pugger!"

Let's flip this around: let's indeed merge the queues, by eliminating team play and forcing ALL players into the PUG queue.

Still sound good to you?

I pay to play the way I want to play, not the way you want me to play.

[norus]

Carcass23, on 05 February 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

We need a kiddie pool for those that cannot swim. We need a place for every person that cries because they are not rewarded for Rambo style tactics.

Speaking of tactics, that was one of the points made in an earlier post of why premade teams would rule. Because they have tactics. *thinks for a while about that* So, we need a place so we don't have to have tactics. Cause gosh, it's hard to follow a rudimentary plan! "But.. but... they are ALL shooting at ME!" Yes, that is called focused fire. "It's impossible for PUGs to direct fire at one target because I DO WHUT I WONT!"

By all means, keep the kiddie pool. The best argument I have heard so far is because it's a place you can play casually and not really worry about some self important tween screaming at you because you aren't playing to his specifications. "Thanks a lot for crippling us! Next time bring a meta!" Yeah, this part I definately agree with. Nothing worse than someone telling you that the mech or build you choose is bad and you are bad for bringing it. We're supposed to check with these guys first before dropping in anything other than a TDR.

Hark at the elitist. I'm an almost entirely pug player who sometimes will do 2 man queues. I do just fine in the group queue. It is NOT however fun to constantly fight 12 mans who have great communication and all running perfect meta mechs that complement the whole group. Maybe it's you who is in the kiddie pool and can't hack it solo having to play exceptionally well each game just to carry.

Feel free to go solo dropping and do rambo tactics. That is something that ends up with a moron dieing and one team being stuck 11v12. Good players in soloqueue don't do that.

By the way the worst defeat i've ever had happened in, amazingly, group queue. The funny part? It was my team that had a davion 10 man. 2 lights run off to "scout" and get massacred. Following their tactics we sat near base the whole match spread out while the enemy team all pushed in. Their only reaction was backing dieing one by one being so spread out while I was the top damage on the team with the only kill. It sure seemed like that was the kiddie pool, people who think getting a large group will let them win better.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Bhael Fire, on 05 February 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:

Yes.

In-Game VOIP helps, but it does not level the playing field. Groups on private coms will always have an advantage over PUGs...even PUGs on coms.

Most groups are not so skilled players as many comp guys will attest to. I think it will rock many of them when Voip comes in. Just warnings and limited direction will make a big difference in the quality of the fight. Considering how lone wolfs place above some factions in the tourney it should indicate how its going to go.

Solos use instinct and intuition already so having comms will just increase that .

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Carcass23, on 05 February 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

We need a kiddie pool for those that cannot swim. We need a place for every person that cries because they are not rewarded for Rambo style tactics.

Speaking of tactics, that was one of the points made in an earlier post of why premade teams would rule. Because they have tactics. *thinks for a while about that* So, we need a place so we don't have to have tactics. Cause gosh, it's hard to follow a rudimentary plan! "But.. but... they are ALL shooting at ME!" Yes, that is called focused fire. "It's impossible for PUGs to direct fire at one target because I DO WHUT I WONT!"

Funny this is also a way to sum up the LRM argument

[Jon Gotham]

Final time gentlemen, can I please ask that attitudes and agendas (especially these) are NOT brought into the discussion.
We are not here to call people kiddies nor to insinuate groups are elitist or solos are "better" players.
The question is:
Are the split queues needed or not, and why.

Edited by kamiko kross, 05 February 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[norus]

kamiko kross, on 05 February 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Final time gentlemen, can I please ask that attitudes and agendas (especially these) are NOT brought into the discussion.
We are not here to call people kiddies nor to insinuate groups are elitist or solos are "better" players.
The question is:
Are the split queues needed or not, and why.

This game already has a bit of a population problem at times. If new players are constantly thrown vs 12 man groups (very possible considering the "mm" system in this game) it'll have an even harder time attracting new players, the thing needed to keep this game going. Something I can see actually working is allowing small groups of 2 or 3 at most be placed into either queue as needed. The problem though is that groups of any size can drastically swing the win chance of a game towards one side. Currently the matchmaker does not seem to take group size into account at all in group queue to try and create balanced matches. If you've played WoT you'll know that a group of 3 (their max size) can win a game vs full pugs, even if the pugs have equally skilled players (through the wn8 rating system, a pretty damn good skill level system that is based upon every statistic for the tanks available such as damage per game vs what others do in that tank, spotting, etc).

New players are thrown to the wolves enough as is by this MM, it's not satisfying to play against or have on the same team.

[Triordinant]

kamiko kross, on 05 February 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Final time gentlemen, can I please ask that attitudes and agendas (especially these) are NOT brought into the discussion.
We are not here to call people kiddies nor to insinuate groups are elitist or solos are "better" players.
The question is:
Are the split queues needed or not, and why.

Split queues have ALWAYS been needed in this game. Unfortunately, PGI took years to realize it and by the time they did half of the MWO players had left, many of them never to return. This is the real reason why we're having low player population problems today, which in turn leads to the MM easing up (resulting in newbs and vets playing in the same match), long wait times in CW, ghost drops, etc. As I pointed out in paragraph 3 of my linked post, VOIP will not make a big difference.

[Mystere]

Triordinant, on 05 February 2015 - 06:02 PM, said:

Split queues have ALWAYS been needed in this game. Unfortunately, PGI took years to realize it and by the time they did half of the MWO players had left, many of them never to return. This is the real reason why we're having low player population problems today, which in turn leads to the MM easing up (resulting in newbs and vets playing in the same match), long wait times in CW, ghost drops, etc. As I pointed out in paragraph 3 of my linked post, VOIP will not make a big difference.

People keep insisting that players left MWO because of queues. It can't possibly be because of unmet/broken promises, long-delayed features, limited/stale game play, strange mechanics, and other things, can it? No, it's only because of queues.

Edited by Mystere, 05 February 2015 - 06:18 PM.

[Stoned Prophet]

Screech, on 05 February 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

Exhibit A on why folks want a solo queue,

Because every word was true and thats why solos WANT a solo que. So how is saying it bad? Does the truth scare you? Are you angry about being called out? Please enlighten me to how i am wrong.

[Jon Gotham]

Mystere, on 05 February 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

People keep insisting that players left MWO because of queues. It can't possibly be because of unmet/broken promises, long-delayed features, limited/stale game play, strange mechanics, and other things, can it? No, it's only because of queues.

I think this is more likely to be honest.

One last time gentlemen, keep your bias and agendas out of it.

As for the Wot reference it actually harms your chances if you play in a group. Me and a friend (along with others) performed an experiment. Over a one thousand match sample, we were 60% MORE likely to have the much worse team if we grouped up. We were nearly 80% more likely to be at the bottom end of the weight/class scale as well than if we dropped solo.....that was one of the reasons I left WoT due to the fixed (actually admitted by a US WG member of staff, by accident lol) the better you are, the worse teams you got put on.

The question is: Do we need or not split queues and why. NOT wether you think pugs are idiots or groupers are all evil/unskilled.