100 replies to this topic

[Scyther]

Actually OP, ignoring the flamers, I see over a dozen, almost 2 dozen reasonably thought out replies from the "Solo Queue-Yes, Merge-No" crowd. They (and I) make valid points that state why they wouldn't want a merged queue.

The only point I see being made from the "Merge-Yes" side (your point) is that VOIP will even up the supposed mismatch, which several replies reasonably refute.

You may not have gotten the responses you wanted, but I would hardly call that 'discussion failed'.

[HimseIf]

The nail in the coffin of combining solo and group queues is to try buying 3 shiny new variants of a 'mech you have never driven before, don't touch the skill tree yet, now take them, in stock form into group queue, no modules or anything. Try leveling them up in group queue MXP only. You will see why it might not be desirable to combine them.

[oldradagast]

kamiko kross, on 05 February 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

Ok, after having just read the February roadmap it got me wondering as to what will happen after the Feb patches. I'm posting this for discussion purposes so let's not start flaming each other?
The question is: Do we still NEED a solo only queue? Two quotes from the roadmap thread:

If "get on TS and join a team" - the endless mantra about what "those useless PUG's need to do to get good!" worked, anyone could be come a master of this game in under a half-hour.

VoIP is nice and feature that is sorely lacking, but the brutal reality is that it will see little use. Most people will turn it off because they are not interested in hearing idiocy and profanity, and even those who do use it will not be granted some magical skill to formulate good plans, much less get anyone to follow them.

Flat-out truth: a PUG with VoIP is still in bad shape compared to an actual team that is used to working together without VoIP. So, while it's better than nothing, it is a far cry from a "cure-all" that will suddenly elevate new and casual players to a higher tier of play... which is what would be required if your suggestion to just toss them all in the same pool were to have any hope of working. No, all that would do is drive even more people away from the game, and - let's face it - it's not as if MWO can afford to lose more players.

Final proof of concept: look at the train wreck that is CW, where there is no match-maker and everyone is tossed in the same queue. PUG's and small casual groups have nearly zero chance to win against a remotely coordinated team. Adding VoIP will just let people hear screams of anger as they lose vs. fixing anything in that format... and the empty queues illustrate what most people do when faced with pointless, 1-sided games.

Edited by oldradagast, 06 February 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

The Space Pope would more than willing to bless your imminent marriage for a nominal fee.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 06 February 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[cSand]

Space Pope blessed and all

lovely


can we televise it?

[Impossible Wasabi]

Why not?

The Space Pope will talk to his Comstar contacts about the details.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 06 February 2015 - 08:53 PM.

[Acid Phase]

I came to read some comments, but the forums are still as toxic as ever. I feel sorry for OPs who want a serious discussion.

[Stoned Prophet]

cSand, on 06 February 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

COME AT ME BRO

And when pinned down for your unprovoked attack upon me, you run off and say relax man! Classic. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Im not here to judge.

Screech, on 05 February 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

Or they do not suffer fools gladly.

So thats why theyre so desperate to get out of the solo que...

Edited by Stoned Prophet, 06 February 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[cSand]

Stoned Prophet, on 06 February 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

And when pinned down for your unprovoked attack upon me, you run off and say relax man! Classic. Whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Im not here to judge.

When you're done talking I'll be in the (groups) PUG queue

Edited by cSand, 06 February 2015 - 09:16 PM.

[Jon Gotham]

Acid Phase, on 06 February 2015 - 08:55 PM, said:

I came to read some comments, but the forums are still as toxic as ever. I feel sorry for OPs who want a serious discussion.

Thanks mate:)
I've had to ask repeatedly to keep it on topic and I'll state again=I'm not proposing ANYTHING. It's merely a topic for discussion because I'm interested in what people think. Two people on this very page STILL think it's my idea to DO this-yet I clearly stated in op that it's merely a topic for DISCUSSION.
Lol?

[Brody319]

One que to rule them all

[Stoned Prophet]

kamiko kross, on 06 February 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Thanks mate:)
I've had to ask repeatedly to keep it on topic and I'll state again=I'm not proposing ANYTHING. It's merely a topic for discussion because I'm interested in what people think. Two people on this very page STILL think it's my idea to DO this-yet I clearly stated in op that it's merely a topic for DISCUSSION.
Lol?

So youre saying you wanted to discuss it. I put in my opinion... the big internet toughguy over there seems to want to make things personal for some reason. I expect daddy issues. However, having spoken my part, i will apologize for having enabled the derailment and shall not post again unless its on topic. Enjoy!

[Insects]

kamiko kross, on 05 February 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

VOIP should be a leveler of the playing field in my opinion, giving solo teams a near group queue level of comms. I remember people saying that this was the deciding element in "pug stomps." So with that "advantage" removed, is the field now level? And if it isn't, why not?

I dont think VOIP on its own will make much difference.
VOIP doesnt = teamwork, it is just easier than typing and usable in the heat of combat. Half the team is still going to ignore the plan, keep hiding behind a rock while killed one by one, Leeroy off solo into the enemy, yell at the team to push while they themselves are standing at the very rear of the group with no intention of being in the frontline, die first then tell the team how bad they are while spectating.

A huge difference between a premade vs PUG group is that the premade have fought more than one battle together so their teamwork is automatically a class above. They know who is good vs meatshield, who has credibility as a leader, who likes to charge vs snipe. Have also worked out who will be bringing the ECM etc.

The coming feature of being able to form a group of solos into a multi-match team should make a real difference, combined with VOIP it will be as good as a casual unit.
It will still be a group of solos, but after a couple of matches together they will sort out who is worth listening to, who needs to swap to ECM, LRM, TAG mechs for a balanced team, who is an idiot or deadwood and booted out.

An organised "trained" elite team will still stomp all over casual teams, but at least a formed solo group will perform a lot better against casual groups.

There will be no need to PUG in clan wars, use the group form for that so you can all stay grouped for multiple matches and develop into a functioning team.

PUG "play now" matches still essential, sure it has its frustrations but also good when you just want to solo shoot robots.
Formed groups dont belong in PUG games.

[CantHandletheTruth]

oldradagast, on 06 February 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

Final proof of concept: look at the train wreck that is CW, where there is no match-maker and everyone is tossed in the same queue. PUG's and small casual groups have nearly zero chance to win against a remotely coordinated team. Adding VoIP will just let people hear screams of anger as they lose vs. fixing anything in that format... and the empty queues illustrate what most people do when faced with pointless, 1-sided games.

Oddly enough I've had no trouble winning dropping solo, even against team, I'm 4/5 against one unit this week.

[Jon Gotham]

joelmuzz, on 06 February 2015 - 10:21 PM, said:

The coming feature of being able to form a group of solos into a multi-match team should make a real difference, combined with VOIP it will be as good as a casual unit.

I'll re quote this for posterity. This feature could damage casual unit membership..potentially.
Ok could be interesting turn of topic based off of that:
If the grouping is easy, is it worth bothering with casual units? If that does become the case, is that a good thing?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^devil's advocacy comment there^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited by kamiko kross, 07 February 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Impossible Wasabi]

Casual units will still have the advantage of planning, knowing each other and generally knowing who they are playing with.

The Space Pope plays with several people/units for casual fun and random groups aren't going to be comparable to that.

Comms are great but LFG groups will still be subject to the roll of the dice, sometimes you might get some great players and other times you might get complete scrubs. Which is not something that happens with casual units, you can always choose who you play with in that regard (by this the Space Pope means that a player can easily be in a casual unit but have chosen one that plays fairly well).

Edited by The True Space Pope, 07 February 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[cSand]

Stoned Prophet, on 06 February 2015 - 09:59 PM, said:

So youre saying you wanted to discuss it. I put in my opinion... the big internet toughguy over there seems to want to make things personal for some reason. I expect daddy issues. However, having spoken my part, i will apologize for having enabled the derailment and shall not post again unless its on topic. Enjoy!

The funny part is we essentially agree on the issue at hand here.


BTW I never did see you last night. I saw another guy with Stoned in his name and was briefly excited

...but then disappointed. I did not get to hand you your ass.

Edited by cSand, 07 February 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[CantHandletheTruth]

HimseIf, on 06 February 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

The nail in the coffin of combining solo and group queues is to try buying 3 shiny new variants of a 'mech you have never driven before, don't touch the skill tree yet, now take them, in stock form into group queue, no modules or anything. Try leveling them up in group queue MXP only. You will see why it might not be desirable to combine them.

I do that all of the time. GXP is for the constant string of modules that seem to need to be unlocked as drop desks change.

Admittedly its worse the heavier the mech gets, but its not that big of a change from a virgin to an elited chassis.

[Jon Gotham]

Ok devil's advocate (look it up before smack talking me please) time again! This next question(s) are posed off of other comments I've seen in related threads:
What I've seen is that it's the level of co-ordination that makes premades unfair, even with pug voip. Also it has been said that their mechs set ups and level of practice (skill basically) makes it unfair.

So the first question is:
Should people in maxed out mechs and higher elos be separated out of the solo pug queue? If these people are unfair in premades, then they should also be unfair in solo queue as they have better mechs and better skills?

So the second question is:
If one solo team doesn't use built in voip but the other team does, is that fair? Should the voip using team NOT be matched up with the muted team?

When trying to answer please prefix your replies with A1 and A2 so I know where your points you'd like to make start, thank you!

[Satan n stuff]

Mudhutwarrior, on 05 February 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Most groups are not so skilled players as many comp guys will attest to. I think it will rock many of them when Voip comes in. Just warnings and limited direction will make a big difference in the quality of the fight. Considering how lone wolfs place above some factions in the tourney it should indicate how its going to go.

Solos use instinct and intuition already so having comms will just increase that .

You can't really use those tournaments as proof of anything, elo matchmaking is still active during the tournaments so skill doesn't have an awful lot to do with tournament scores.