117 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Black Arachne, on 07 February 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

System has a lot of potential builds and in no way is it limited - using the above Battlemaster example. One Large energy in the arm (3slots) - so you can go with a ERPPC/PPC or Large Laser+Medium Laser (Pulse, ER, or Reg) or 3 Small Lasers ( (Pulse, ER, or Reg). The Missile slot can be either a LRM-20, LRM-15, 2xLRM10's, 2xLRM-5s, SRM-6, 2xSRM-4, 2XSRM-2 or 2xStreak SRM-2's. Same goes for the medium energy slots.

A lot of flexibility so long as we don't want to put long range energy weapons in the torsos...

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black." - Henry Ford, commenting on the color selection of the Model T

[darkchylde]

Quxudica, on 07 February 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

This is a backwards way of looking at it and it depresses me they take this viewpoint. limitations are not always a bad thing, they serve to differentiate chassis, helping define the roles of each variant. Without chassis-specific limitations you wind up with homogenization and you deprive certain designs of character.

A hunchback looks like a hunchback because it was purpose built to carry a canon meant for much large mechs. The Catapult has giant LRM racks because it *needs them* to physically carry LRM 20s. When you remove size from these weapon systems as a factor, you leave these chassis with glaring silhouette and hitbox handicaps that no longer serve any function. What purpose does a Hollander serve when a Raven can mount the weapon the Hollander was specifically built for?

/tangent
Quirks were also, in my opinion, taken in the wrong direction. It makes sense that some chassis would be better with some weapons, but it should not have been 100% meta-centric even when it completely ignored the chassis stock purpose on some (k-2 and trebs for example). Quirks should have been more about *that chassis*, a hunchback should have better critical protection for equipment in its hunch, a raven should have bonuses to support functionality (narc/tag/sensor range etc), whales should have damage reduction from above and Vertical cockpit immunity thanks to that huge canopy.

Far to much of the quirk system is dedicated to directly buffing *weapons* instead of helping define the mechs themselves.

Well Said.

[Black Arachne]

Escef, on 07 February 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

A lot of flexibility so long as we don't want to put long range energy weapons in the torsos...

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black." - Henry Ford, commenting on the color selection of the Model T

A Battlemaster isn't an Awesome nor is it a car.


The BattleMaster carries a formidable array of weaponry, the primary of which is a Donal PPC in its right arm. For close range combat, the 'Mech is armed with six Martell Medium Lasers, which gave the 'Mech the ability to unleash a devastating barrage of lasers at short to medium ranges. Four of these are split between the left and right torsos facing forward while the other two are backward-facing, giving it protection against 'Mechs attempting to attack its rear. This short-range firepower is further enhanced with a Holly SRM-6 and two tons of ammo in its left torso. Finally, the BattleMaster is equipped with two Sperry Browning Machine Guns, both in its left arm fed by a one-ton ammo bin in the left torso, which deterred infantry attacks. The BattleMaster is also adept at defending itself in close combat, including disengaging its PPC in an emergency for when it needs both hands. Fourteen and a half tons of armor have given it excellent protection from attacks and its 340 VOX fusion engine provide a cruising speed of 42.3 kph.^[3][9]

The Awesome has a limited, but effective, armament consisting of three Kreuss PPCs, one mounted in its right arm and two split between left and right torso. These give it an immense amount of damage potential at ranges exceeding five hundred meters, enough to destroy some 'Mechs with a single salvo, although at point-blank range they are less useful. For close combat the 'Mech mounts in its head a Diverse Optics Type 10 Small Laser while its left arm ends in a battle fist sufficient for hand-to-hand fighting.^[1][2][9]

To handle the tremendous heat load of its weaponry the Awesome carries twenty-eightheat sinks, although even these can be overwhelmed; most pilots only fire two of their PPCs per salvo to reduce the strain. With fifteens tons of armor plating the Awesome is one of the most heavily-armored assault 'Mechs, making it better protected than even theBattleMaster, including some of the thickest rear armor of any 'Mech. Although an enemy coming at it from the rear or left flank has a fighting chance, most soldiers agree that "the only defense against an Awesome is another Awesome."^[1][2]

Edited by Black Arachne, 07 February 2015 - 08:30 PM.

[Knight Magus]

Black Arachne, on 07 February 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

A Battlemaster isn't an Awesome nor is it a car.


The BattleMaster carries a formidable array of weaponry, the primary of which is a Donal PPC in its right arm. For close range combat, the 'Mech is armed with six Martell Medium Lasers, which gave the 'Mech the ability to unleash a devastating barrage of lasers at short to medium ranges. Four of these are split between the left and right torsos facing forward while the other two are backward-facing, giving it protection against 'Mechs attempting to attack its rear. This short-range firepower is further enhanced with a Holly SRM-6 and two tons of ammo in its left torso. Finally, the BattleMaster is equipped with two Sperry Browning Machine Guns, both in its left arm fed by a one-ton ammo bin in the left torso, which deterred infantry attacks. The BattleMaster is also adept at defending itself in close combat, including disengaging its PPC in an emergency for when it needs both hands. Fourteen and a half tons of armor have given it excellent protection from attacks and its 340 VOX fusion engine provide a cruising speed of 42.3 kph.^[3][9]

The Awesome has a limited, but effective, armament consisting of three Kreuss PPCs, one mounted in its right arm and two split between left and right torso. These give it an immense amount of damage potential at ranges exceeding five hundred meters, enough to destroy some 'Mechs with a single salvo, although at point-blank range they are less useful. For close combat the 'Mech mounts in its head a Diverse Optics Type 10 Small Laser while its left arm ends in a battle fist sufficient for hand-to-hand fighting.^[1][2][9]

To handle the tremendous heat load of its weaponry the Awesome carries twenty-eightheat sinks, although even these can be overwhelmed; most pilots only fire two of their PPCs per salvo to reduce the strain. With fifteens tons of armor plating the Awesome is one of the most heavily-armored assault 'Mechs, making it better protected than even theBattleMaster, including some of the thickest rear armor of any 'Mech. Although an enemy coming at it from the rear or left flank has a fighting chance, most soldiers agree that "the only defense against an Awesome is another Awesome."^[1][2]

Awesome was always used as a long range support mech which makes it awesome. The Battlemaster is in your face. Both are aptly named.

[Rebas Kradd]

Quxudica, on 07 February 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

A hunchback looks like a hunchback because it was purpose built to carry a canon meant for much large mechs. The Catapult has giant LRM racks because it *needs them* to physically carry LRM 20s. When you remove size from these weapon systems as a factor, you leave these chassis with glaring silhouette and hitbox handicaps that no longer serve any function.

I have to think that this was a secondary consideration in PGI's eyes, next to making the game fun and wide-open for gamers. It's another choice made in favor of the lowest common denominator rather than the hardcore fans. I'd like to think that the yet-to-arrive single player world later down the road may yet offer an opportunity to let hardcore mechanics such as this back into the game, but for now PGI still has a player base to build.

I too was disappointed that the quirks were limited to weapons and not mech characteristics, but that could still change.

[mike29tw]

Obligatory reminder that 4 PPC Stalker happened when PPC was at 7 heat and ERPPC was at 11.
Right now, PPC has 10 heat and ERPPC has 15.

That means a 4 PPC alpha would generate 28 heat, which is less heat than 2 ERPPC right now(30 heat).

A 6 PPC alpha would generate 42 heat, which is only a little more heat than 4 PPC alpha right now without ghost heat(40 heat).

Ghost heat broke more builds than it intended to fix, and in the end it was fixing PPC/ERPPC heat and projectile velocity that fixed PPC boat.

[Escef]

Black Arachne, on 07 February 2015 - 08:25 PM, said:

A Battlemaster isn't an Awesome nor is it a car.

Your lack of getting the point isn't an argument, nor is posting a copy-paste from Sarna.

[Satan n stuff]

LordKnightFandragon, on 07 February 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Lol, I think it was to break up firing the same weapons in large groups.

It was a failed experiment, it needs to go and the heat scale needs an overhaul.

Agreed, we need proper penalties for running hot instead of ghost heat.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Many of you guys fail to see and understand that sized hard point idea is not really meant to deal with ghost heat.
Boating in itself is not bad. There are many stock builds that naturally "boat".
Hard point sized system was meant to give particular mechs they flavor, reason to exist, and to out some abnormal frankenstain disgusting builds, that are too far from BT flavor.

For ghost problem, and the real source of problem PPFLD, there are other ideas to fix it, like targetting computer HomelessBill and multum other convergence ideas. They said that in closed Beta there was working convergence system that do not exist anymore. Scratching my head why it is out now and instead they fight they own system with flowed, strange, unfriendly to anyone mechanics for years now.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 08 February 2015 - 04:45 AM.

[El Bandito]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 08 February 2015 - 04:45 AM, said:

For ghost problem, and the real source of problem PPFLD, there are other ideas to fix it, like targetting computer HomelessBill and multum other convergence ideas. They said that in closed Beta there was working convergence system that do not exist anymore. Scratching my head why it is out now and instead they fight they own system with flowed, strange, unfriendly to anyone mechanics for years now.

The reason we do not have the old convergence is because it was not working well with the hit-registration. Instead of trying to make them work, PGI opted for the lazy way out.

[Escef]

El Bandito, on 08 February 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

The reason we do not have the old convergence is because it was not working well with the hit-registration. Instead of trying to make them work, PGI opted for the lazy way out.

Ok, so, do you know how much work it would have been to fix it? Have you done the cost/benefit analysis? How many man-hours would go into it? Man-hours that could be spent on other things?

I don't have the answers to these questions, either. However, I've seen a lot of people make claims like this, and pretty much all of the people making these claims speak from a position of ignorance. They're not programmers, don't deal with network code, don't deal with the nuts and bolts of a game engine, etc. CryEngine netcode is apparently so infamously poor that several companies that adopt the engine write their own netcode. Now, I'm no IT expert, but that strikes me as a serious undertaking by itself.

I'm not going to make any judgements about it being "the lazy way out" because I don't know how true that evaluation is, nor do I know the qualifications of anyone making such claims.

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

Ok, so, do you know how much work it would have been to fix it? Have you done the cost/benefit analysis? How many man-hours would go into it? Man-hours that could be spent on other things?

Like, uh, the 3PV that everyone wanted? Because we all trust PGI's cost/benefit analysis right?

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

I don't have the answers to these questions, either. However, I've seen a lot of people make claims like this, and pretty much all of the people making these claims speak from a position of ignorance. They're not programmers, don't deal with network code, don't deal with the nuts and bolts of a game engine, etc. CryEngine netcode is apparently so infamously poor that several companies that adopt the engine write their own netcode. Now, I'm no IT expert, but that strikes me as a serious undertaking by itself.

I'm not going to make any judgements about it being "the lazy way out" because I don't know how true that evaluation is, nor do I know the qualifications of anyone making such claims.

None of those nonsense make PGI immune to critique. It is what it is, a cop out to avoid the actual problem rather than fixing it. I may not an expert on making video games, but when I see problems I know that covering them up with a blanket doesn't make them go away.

Edited by mike29tw, 08 February 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[El Bandito]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 06:49 AM, said:

I'm not going to make any judgements about it being "the lazy way out" because I don't know how true that evaluation is, nor do I know the qualifications of anyone making such claims.

My claim still stands, as PGI obviously did not succeed with convergence, either due to time constraints or due to incompetence, and opted for Ghost Heat instead.

[Aethon]

Kaeb Odellas, on 07 February 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

I'd prefer soft restrictions, where there are negative quirks associated with exceeding the hardpoint size limit, instead of just prohibiting the player from doing so.

Something like, say, having its base ballistic quirks halved or removed (without affecting other quirks) if a unit like the HBK-4H is equipped with an AC/20 instead of the 10 for which it is quirked?

[Aethon]

Part of the problem, IMHO, is that PGI is doing a rather good job of adhering to canon Battletech values, with the exception of the CERPPC and doubled armor, along with one or two others.

However, while remaining true to the tabletop damage values, they forgot part of the equation: The hit-location table. If you bring a Nova Prime to a fight in tabletop, and alpha strike (insane, I know), all those lasers are going to have dice rolls to determine where each one lands; it would be something of a miracle if all of them hit the same location.

Without this part of the equation, things got a bit lop-sided; ghost heat was, IMHO, a knee-jerk reaction to things spiraling out of control, in terms of balance.

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

Like, uh, the 3PV that everyone wanted? Because we all trust PGI's cost/benefit analysis right?

3PV was added because they actually sat and watched new players having a ridiculously hard time with leg/body positioning. They didn't want to add it, but did so because it was best solution available.

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 06:59 AM, said:

None of those nonsense make PGI immune to critique. It is what it is, a cop out to avoid the actual problem rather than fixing it. I may not an expert on making video games, but when I see problems I know that covering them up with a blanket doesn't make them go away.

Never said it made them immune to criticism. Just that we have a lot of folks making very uninformed criticism. For example, this guy:

El Bandito, on 08 February 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

My claim still stands, as PGI obviously did not succeed with convergence, either due to time constraints or due to incompetence, and opted for Ghost Heat instead.

Who, despite apparently not knowing a damned thing about programming, video game design and implementation, or netcode continues to believe his own unfounded judgement because it allows him to smugly look down on PGI as "lazy" and "incompetent". I swear, it's the attitude of a guy that eats his own s*** with a smile on his face and tells you it tastes like chocolate.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Aethon, on 08 February 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Part of the problem, IMHO, is that PGI is doing a rather good job of adhering to canon Battletech values, with the exception of the CERPPC and doubled armor, along with one or two others.

However, while remaining true to the tabletop damage values, they forgot part of the equation: The hit-location table. If you bring a Nova Prime to a fight in tabletop, and alpha strike (insane, I know), all those lasers are going to have dice rolls to determine where each one lands; it would be something of a miracle if all of them hit the same location.

Without this part of the equation, things got a bit lop-sided; ghost heat was, IMHO, a knee-jerk reaction to things spiraling out of control, in terms of balance.

Doubled Armor I think is fine. I always kinda felt TT values were pretty dang low overall. Then again, I never did play a game, it just seemed like even an Assault mech would die in just a few shots given the armor values. I know the spread and hard to hit stuff of that game, but still...

Doubled armor is fine in this game

[mike29tw]

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

3PV was added because they actually sat and watched new players having a ridiculously hard time with leg/body positioning. They didn't want to add it, but did so because it was best solution available.

No. The best solution is a working tutorial that walks new players through the ins and outs of controlling a battlemech. 3PV might be a solution, but it's a controversial one, and from the number of players using it, it certainly doesn't worth the resource that's put in to make it.

Escef, on 08 February 2015 - 08:54 AM, said:

Never said it made them immune to criticism. Just that we have a lot of folks making very uninformed criticism. For example, this guy:



Who, despite apparently not knowing a damned thing about programming, video game design and implementation, or netcode continues to believe his own unfounded judgement because it allows him to smugly look down on PGI as "lazy" and "incompetent". I swear, it's the attitude of a guy that eats his own s*** with a smile on his face and tells you it tastes like chocolate.

What a coincidence !! Because it had been proven time and again that PGI doesn't know much about those as well !!
I say it's fair for him to criticize them considering PGI is asking money for a game that ultimately achieved less than a free Crysis mod.

[Escef]

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

No. The best solution is a working tutorial that walks new players through the ins and outs of controlling a battlemech. 3PV might be a solution, but it's a controversial one, and from the number of players using it, it certainly doesn't worth the resource that's put in to make it.

Ok, so because it was a fast solution that you also happen to not like, that experienced players don't use... What? It's such a non-issue. It's like going to a drive through and getting handed your napkins instead of them being on the bag, it isn't a big deal.

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

What a coincidence !! Because it had been proven time and again that PGI doesn't know much about those as well !!
I say it's fair for him to criticize them considering PGI is asking money for a game that ultimately achieved less than a free Crysis mod.

Ok, you know what? Show me what you've done. Show me how qualified you are to make judgements on their intelligence and work ethic based upon all of the work you have done in the field. I mean, you MUST be an expert, or at lest work in the field, to have this kind of insight, right? Well?

[Asyres]

I don't like ghost heat, but I also really, really dislike the idea of sized hardpoints, as it would break a significant number of fun builds - and possibly break entire chassis, barring significant weapon rebalancing. Take the Battlemaster - it goes from being able to carry long range energy weapons in its high torso mounts, to only getting one on its arm, oh yeah, now it can only take machine guns on its other arm. Congratulations, you've taken a mech from 'fun but suboptimal' to pretty much unplayable in one simple step.

mike29tw, on 08 February 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

I say it's fair for him to criticize them considering PGI is asking money for a game that ultimately achieved less than a free Crysis mod.

I know this is an unpopular opinion around here, but I actually enjoy MWO more than LL.