32 replies to this topic

[LordSkyKnight]

1) I wouldn't call my view of lights restricted. you wouldn't expect an atlas to scout, you shouldn't expect a light to be able to 1v1 an atlas. If it could, why would anyone take an atlas? You'll notice I also said that they can still contribute to a fight. Good PvP is about choices. If a light can do it all, why take anything else? They should have a role, just like every other mech chassis, but I don't think that you should be able to win a CW match with any chassis by itself. That isn't fun. That isn't balanced. I'd be making the same argument if a first wave of nothing but king crabs was an EZmode win. If you think that having a view that says one chassis should not be able to win a game mode by itself is a restricted one, then my view is restricted. I would disagree.

2) I never said Counter attack was the objective based game mode. If you read carefully, I said that I really like invasion mode, which is an objective based mode, especially now that the changes to counter attack made for some added variety to the CW queue.

[dervishx5]

I still find this funny

Edited by dervishx5, 08 February 2015 - 09:51 PM.

[Moarginplz]

LordSkyKnight, on 08 February 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

1) I wouldn't call my view of lights restricted. you wouldn't expect an atlas to scout, you shouldn't expect a light to be able to 1v1 an atlas.

Actually, I would expect the light to usually win that fight. Lights are one of the best ways to fight the 100 tonners.

[ApolloKaras]

dervishx5, on 08 February 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

I still find this funny

at least its not the 10 hour version lol

[Valar13]

LordSkyKnight, on 08 February 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

1) I wouldn't call my view of lights restricted. you wouldn't expect an atlas to scout, you shouldn't expect a light to be able to 1v1 an atlas. If it could, why would anyone take an atlas? You'll notice I also said that they can still contribute to a fight. Good PvP is about choices. If a light can do it all, why take anything else? They should have a role, just like every other mech chassis, but I don't think that you should be able to win a CW match with any chassis by itself. That isn't fun. That isn't balanced. I'd be making the same argument if a first wave of nothing but king crabs was an EZmode win. If you think that having a view that says one chassis should not be able to win a game mode by itself is a restricted one, then my view is restricted. I would disagree.

2) I never said Counter attack was the objective based game mode. If you read carefully, I said that I really like invasion mode, which is an objective based mode, especially now that the changes to counter attack made for some added variety to the CW queue.

There are very simple counters to a light rush.

1. Coordinate with your teammates and anticipate the rush
2. Have me on your team to shoot the lights

[hopterque]

Haha yeah Valar you sure did really well against our light rushes when you were still a Davion, oh wait you got so tired of dealing with it you switched factions.

[Grynos]

LordSkyKnight, on 08 February 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

I think lights do have a place in CW. They're tonnage efficient and allow you to bring bigger badder mechs. They also act as scouts for the main force to allow those bigger badder mechs to react in time, while still being able to contribute to the fight as larger mechs pound on each other. I do not think a 160 ton drop deck should be as effective as a 240 ton drop deck. But then, I think the tonnage limit should be tonnage/team, not tonnage/person. That way someone better in lights can use only lights and not be a drain on their team. I like the CW invasion game mode. Objective based games are great, especially now that counter attack is more of a team deathmatch. Variety is the spice of life. But the light rush is an easy, difficult to counter method of winning the invasion game mode which is highly frustrating to play against for the majority of the playerbase. And don't try to argue that it isn't difficult to counter just because it can be beaten. That isn't a valid argument. Dark Souls can be beaten, that doesn't make it easy. I'm not sure how exactly to make it more difficult to execute without unbalancing other things, but I think it needs to be done.

I will ask you this. If light rushes are soooo unbalanced as you say, then how are the clans able to take any planets seeing as they cannot light rush effectively where the IS can.

Just because it is highly frustrating to play against doesn't mean it is unbalanced. Have you gone up against a 12 man of real skilled players who attrition and spawn camp ?? Is that not just as frustrating? I would say that spawning to insta death is more aggravating then a light rush, at least with the latter you can actually do something.

[LordSkyKnight]

Moarginplz, on 08 February 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

Actually, I would expect the light to usually win that fight. Lights are one of the best ways to fight the 100 tonners.

I think that's wrong. If the best way to kill a bigger mech is to use a light, and the best way to complete objective based is to use a light, why would anyone ever take something other than a light? And that's kinda where CW is at right now. An organized team can take nothing but lights in most situations and expect to be competitive. 12 lights can have a hope of taking on a good balance of heavies and assaults and expect to have a good chance of winning. If you don't think that's unbalanced, then I may as well give up and everyone can just drive lights.

Grynos, on 09 February 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

I will ask you this. If light rushes are soooo unbalanced as you say, then how are the clans able to take any planets seeing as they cannot light rush effectively where the IS can.

Just because it is highly frustrating to play against doesn't mean it is unbalanced. Have you gone up against a 12 man of real skilled players who attrition and spawn camp ?? Is that not just as frustrating? I would say that spawning to insta death is more aggravating then a light rush, at least with the latter you can actually do something.

Clans have better mechs. There, I said it. And they still have trouble dealing with light mechs, but the light rush isn't a defensive strategy, it's an offensive one. It's how House Kurita actually takes planets back when they decide to try to.

Going up against a 12 man skilled players is frustrating as well, but they're using a mix of weight classes, as well as a mix of roles when they do that. If the group you're up against is better than you, you should lose. That's how PvP works. the light rush takes most of the skill out of one of the teams and basically says 'if your team isn't above a certain skill threshold, you're boned, but our team really doesn't need to be all that good cuz we just have to run and kill the static objectives before you manage to kill us.' That's not balanced.

Also the only fix to the highly skilled players stomping pugs is a matchmaking system, which CW does not have the player base to support.


Edit: I'm still kind of in shock that people are trying to defend the strategy. Even the teams that do it say it's boring and cheesy, but they want to win games.

Edited by LordSkyKnight, 09 February 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[HARDKOR]

Isn't bragging about doing the light rush as your only tactic kind of like bragging that roofies are your wingman?

[Roadbeer]

HARDKOR, on 09 February 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Isn't bragging about doing the light rush as your only tactic kind of like bragging that roofies are your wingman?

No more than bragging about how great your unit is when 90% of your drops are against unorganized pugs who fall victim to the Call to Arms button.

[Ilithi Dragon]

LordSkyKnight, on 09 February 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

I think that's wrong. If the best way to kill a bigger mech is to use a light, and the best way to complete objective based is to use a light, why would anyone ever take something other than a light?

Rock-paper-scissors.

Lights are really good at killing many, if not most assault mech builds, and they're really good at killing fire support mechs.

They are often NOT the best at killing other Lights, however. There are many Light-killing Medium builds, and a number of Light-killing Heavy builds that are considerably better at killing Lights than other Lights.

The wide flexibility in builds gives much more nuance and diversity to this, but the basic, crude gist of the balance is as follows:

Lights are great at out-maneuvering, harassing, and killing slow and stompies, and fire support.
Fast Mediums, and fast, brawly Heavies are great at killing Lights and other speedies.
Heavies generally bring the majority of firepower to a match (at least, in a balanced world), but can be squishy.
Slow and stompies are great at killing mediums and heavies, and tanking fire for other, squishier mechs so they can survive longer and do more damage.
Fire support mechs are great at killing or wearing down slow, unsupported advances at range.

That is horribly simplified, and the wide variability in mech capabilities and specific builds causes a lot of blurring along those lines, and specific terrain and circumstances can further impact that, and the effectiveness of various roles, but that's the general balance of weight classes.

In Skirmish/Counter-Attack Mode, Heavies and Assaults are emphasized, because you generally want to maximize the amount of firepower you're bringing, and the amount of armor you're bringing (though personally I think there are plenty of ways to use a harassing speedy strategy to wear the enemy down, I just haven't played enough Counter-Attack Mode to develop said strategies).
In CW Attack Mode, Lights and speedies in general are more valuable, because you don't need to kill all the mechs, just knock out an objective. A mobile assault force is always going to have the advantage there, because it can evade defenses and quickly hit the objective. A mobile defense force is also valuable, because it can more easily respond to a mobile assault force.

[The Trumpet of Gabriel]

The light rush is also good for holding territory. Rush out and engage the enemy in a brawl with 12 lights vs. whatever they bring in. We were able to stay pretty even with kills against a group of clan mechs. Was a lot of fun until the server froze and kicked us out of the game XD

Edited by Sword of Morning, 09 February 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[Conreg]

Shhhh. No. Lights are terrible. Bring bigger mechs. Yes. Bigger.