28 replies to this topic

[nehebkau]

(note, this is based on my own personal observations and limited testing and as such is posted as a point of dialog)

I've figured it out! No, its not because clans are OP (Most people who objectively look at the mechs will agree that the clans have a slight advantage but not significantly over-powering). Clans are doing better because CW / MWO has such crappy in-game performance in regards to frame rates and lag. Please read the entire post before you blow a gasket.

Now I have a pretty high-end system, albeit cursed by the lack of AMD performance, and many players out there do not have high-end systems or are using AMD products. None the less, I get horrible frame rates in CW, sometimes down in the 10-25 FPS range and I know of many more people who get the same or worse frame rates. What does crappy frame rates mean? It means that you are far less accurate. It means that you are slower to torso-twist when you see incoming fire. It occurred to me during one battle that this is very significant in regards t how Clan and IS mechs operate.

First, Weapon accuracy:

Lasers:

Lasers are the only weapon where you can actually aim as you fire and you get a nice indication at the start of the beam that you are actually hitting – your entire damage isn't negated if your aim is off for the first millisecond of the shot. In fact, the longer your duration and the longer your range, in low FPS battles, the more likely you will be to keep your beam on your target and do more damage to them (granted probably spread out over more than one location which under normal situations is a bad thing).

The ability to boat longer range, longer beam and more quantity of lasers means that clan laser vomit mechs will probably have a larger on-target average DPS in poor frame rate situations (i.e. CW) then their clan counterpart. Your aiming sight will assist you on ensuring that you are hitting your target and the more time you have to compensate for lower frame-rates the more damage you will get on target (on average).

Point-damage weapons (AC, Gauss, PPC etc):

In a low-frame rate environment you are lucky if you can hit a target that is moving at a moderate speed. More often auto-cannons are only useful against stationary targets or slowly moving targets and at close range. Gauss and PPC between IS and clanners are identical in so far as how they are affected by poor game performance. Use of PPC/gauss (aside from the thunderbolt) is pretty much even among the two groups (IS and clan). On paper the clans have worse point-damage with the clan repeater auto-cannons but that DOT function can actually allow clans to have a very short aim window to hit with their auto-cannons meaning that in poor frame-rate situations they will have a higher on-target average DPS then an IS counterpart. (if a clanner misses their first CAC20 shot they can still score damage while an IS AC20 is either 20 damage or 0 damage) In this respect the clans have a slight average DPS advantage:

Short range missiles:

SRMs for both clan and IS can be badly affected by poor frame rates. Just like the IS auto-cannon in low frame-rate situations you can easily frame-lag off the target when you fire and your damage is now zero. Both clans and IS have very similar mechs that can boat upwards of 5 srm6s with similar speed and performance and as such are identical in average DPS in low frame-rate situations. Clans have a major advantage here – the SSRM4 and SSRM6. SSRM4s and SSRM6s have drawbacks in comparison to their SRM counterparts that can make them less than desirable in good game-performance situations. (such as no locks vs locks, increased weight and a slower cool-down) In low frame-rate situations the drawbacks of the SSRM vs. the SRM are reduced to less than zero and the benefits skyrocket. SSRMs aren't affected by low frame-rates! This is where the clan has a big advantage. In CW the SSRM6 and SSRM4 negate any damage loss from low frame-rates and the IS side has nothing to compensate. This is a big win for Clan, specially in dealing with smaller mechs. On an aside, I have tested an IS 5x SRM6 boat (55 tons) vs a 5x SSRM6 clanner boat (55 tons) and over 10 matches the IS mech won them all in normal (60+ fps) staged matches. In CW this completely reverses. The SSRM6 mechs are not that awesome its just that the poor game-performance makes them so much better than IS equipment.

LRMs

LRMs are fairly equal between both parties – either equally bad or equally good is for a pessimist and optimist to work out. They are not affected by poor frame-rates and scale pretty much evenly between both sides (we all know the differences by now so lets not get hung up on stream of missiles vs clump of missiles) We are talking about the weapon system, not all the assorted crap (ecm, mech boating, quirks) that goes with them.

Damage Mitigation:

Both sides are equally affected in regards to mitigating damage in low frame-rate situations. If you cant see the enemy fire in a timely manner you can’t twist or dive for cover in a timely manner to mitigate damage. That having been said, the durability of the clanners XL engine gives them a modest advantage in this regards affording them the ability to loose a side and still function vs. an IS xl. This is most evident in the middle classes of IS vs Clan mechs where spreading damage is critical and most IS mechs are also sporting XL engines.

In summary.

The poor performance of CW causes the very slight advantage that clans have in firepower and durability to magnify. Clans greater ability to customize builds with more spread-damage (dot) or weapons not affected by poor game performance (SSRMs, LRMs) means that clan mechs will have a significantly higher actual on-target damage than there is counterparts. Clans XL engine durability helps to reduce the affects of lower damage mitigation due to poor game performance in the medium and light-heavy ranges in comparison to there IS counterparts. The end results is that clan mechs seem to be over powered in clan warfare and pug matches where frame-rate is an issue and we are given a distorted view of game balance.

If PGI improves performance I strongly believe that you will see the “OP divide” shrink significantly and some very over powered IS builds, whose power is masked by game performance issues, will quickly become apparent.

Thoughts?

Edit:
If you compound this with Hit-registration issues and HSR "tom-foolery" it becomes even more pronounced.

Edited by nehebkau, 03 February 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[King Kuranes]

I actually agree with this.

I used to SRM brawl a ton in PUG drops and still do with great success. In CW I've switched mostly to lasers as there seems to be a hit registration issue with SRMs greatly reducing their effectiveness.

[HARDKOR]

OP is smart, IMHO.

[Bigbacon]

All I see is blue lasers from the clans and then, if you get into a brawl, its yellow lasers.

though the poor map design (boreal) doesn't help this any.

Edited by Bigbacon, 03 February 2015 - 12:52 PM.

[Nori Silverrage]

Bigbacon, on 03 February 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

All I see is blue lasers from the clans and then, if you get into a brawl, its yellow lasers.

though the poor map design (boreal) doesn't help this any.

I like to use blinky flashly lasers.

Edited by Nori Silverrage, 03 February 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[Bigbacon]

Nori Silverrage, on 03 February 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

I like to use blinky flashly lasers.

sorry...and the blinkies

[slide]

Interesting theory which makes a lot of sense to me. Hopefully the FPS improvements in today's patch narrows the gap a bit.

I have often wondered if the technology gap between players systems gives and advantage to the person with the deepest pockets.

It seems obvious to me that a player with a high end system, running 100 fps on a 27" monitor at 4k resolution at low ping is going to have a much better time aiming than some one like me who's home computer barely manages 40fps on a 22" at 1680 resolution at a high ping (250-300). I do OK but I seem to do much better on my work computer which has a 24" and much higher frame rates and resolution.

You also have to factor in that a lot of the highly competitive players play clan and by their very nature are more likely to have higher end systems thus increasing the gulf between (some) IS and Clan players even more.

[Leeroy Mechkins]

The small CT hitbox of Stormcrow magnifies this problem many times over.
If hit reg is already difficult, small CT makes it worse.

Usually a mech slightly OP is not that big a deal, but Stormcrows are so common and often used multiple times in CW drops that it multiplies the problem by a high factor.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 04 February 2015 - 05:32 AM.

[Clint Steel]

Don't forget, if IS's big advantage is pinpoint AC, then the fact that you have limited ammo becomes a big issue, coupled with the issue of hit-reg.

I can do 1800 damage with my 2 ER Large Laser Raven, my Dual Gauss Jager would never get close to that just because it would run out of ammo, 2 Med lasers as backup certainly won't make up the difference.

[Gyrok]

nehebkau, on 03 February 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

(note, this is based on my own personal observations and limited testing and as such is posted as a point of dialog)

I've figured it out! No, its not because clans are OP (Most people who objectively look at the mechs will agree that the clans have a slight advantage but not significantly over-powering). Clans are doing better because CW / MWO has such crappy in-game performance in regards to frame rates and lag. Please read the entire post before you blow a gasket.

Now I have a pretty high-end system, albeit cursed by the lack of AMD performance, and many players out there do not have high-end systems or are using AMD products. None the less, I get horrible frame rates in CW, sometimes down in the 10-25 FPS range and I know of many more people who get the same or worse frame rates. What does crappy frame rates mean? It means that you are far less accurate. It means that you are slower to torso-twist when you see incoming fire. It occurred to me during one battle that this is very significant in regards t how Clan and IS mechs operate.

First, Weapon accuracy:

Lasers:

Lasers are the only weapon where you can actually aim as you fire and you get a nice indication at the start of the beam that you are actually hitting – your entire damage isn't negated if your aim is off for the first millisecond of the shot. In fact, the longer your duration and the longer your range, in low FPS battles, the more likely you will be to keep your beam on your target and do more damage to them (granted probably spread out over more than one location which under normal situations is a bad thing).

The ability to boat longer range, longer beam and more quantity of lasers means that clan laser vomit mechs will probably have a larger on-target average DPS in poor frame rate situations (i.e. CW) then their clan counterpart. Your aiming sight will assist you on ensuring that you are hitting your target and the more time you have to compensate for lower frame-rates the more damage you will get on target (on average).

Point-damage weapons (AC, Gauss, PPC etc):

In a low-frame rate environment you are lucky if you can hit a target that is moving at a moderate speed. More often auto-cannons are only useful against stationary targets or slowly moving targets and at close range. Gauss and PPC between IS and clanners are identical in so far as how they are affected by poor game performance. Use of PPC/gauss (aside from the thunderbolt) is pretty much even among the two groups (IS and clan). On paper the clans have worse point-damage with the clan repeater auto-cannons but that DOT function can actually allow clans to have a very short aim window to hit with their auto-cannons meaning that in poor frame-rate situations they will have a higher on-target average DPS then an IS counterpart. (if a clanner misses their first CAC20 shot they can still score damage while an IS AC20 is either 20 damage or 0 damage) In this respect the clans have a slight average DPS advantage:

Short range missiles:

SRMs for both clan and IS can be badly affected by poor frame rates. Just like the IS auto-cannon in low frame-rate situations you can easily frame-lag off the target when you fire and your damage is now zero. Both clans and IS have very similar mechs that can boat upwards of 5 srm6s with similar speed and performance and as such are identical in average DPS in low frame-rate situations. Clans have a major advantage here – the SSRM4 and SSRM6. SSRM4s and SSRM6s have drawbacks in comparison to their SRM counterparts that can make them less than desirable in good game-performance situations. (such as no locks vs locks, increased weight and a slower cool-down) In low frame-rate situations the drawbacks of the SSRM vs. the SRM are reduced to less than zero and the benefits skyrocket. SSRMs aren't affected by low frame-rates! This is where the clan has a big advantage. In CW the SSRM6 and SSRM4 negate any damage loss from low frame-rates and the IS side has nothing to compensate. This is a big win for Clan, specially in dealing with smaller mechs. On an aside, I have tested an IS 5x SRM6 boat (55 tons) vs a 5x SSRM6 clanner boat (55 tons) and over 10 matches the IS mech won them all in normal (60+ fps) staged matches. In CW this completely reverses. The SSRM6 mechs are not that awesome its just that the poor game-performance makes them so much better than IS equipment.

LRMs

LRMs are fairly equal between both parties – either equally bad or equally good is for a pessimist and optimist to work out. They are not affected by poor frame-rates and scale pretty much evenly between both sides (we all know the differences by now so lets not get hung up on stream of missiles vs clump of missiles) We are talking about the weapon system, not all the assorted crap (ecm, mech boating, quirks) that goes with them.

Damage Mitigation:

Both sides are equally affected in regards to mitigating damage in low frame-rate situations. If you cant see the enemy fire in a timely manner you can’t twist or dive for cover in a timely manner to mitigate damage. That having been said, the durability of the clanners XL engine gives them a modest advantage in this regards affording them the ability to loose a side and still function vs. an IS xl. This is most evident in the middle classes of IS vs Clan mechs where spreading damage is critical and most IS mechs are also sporting XL engines.

In summary.

The poor performance of CW causes the very slight advantage that clans have in firepower and durability to magnify. Clans greater ability to customize builds with more spread-damage (dot) or weapons not affected by poor game performance (SSRMs, LRMs) means that clan mechs will have a significantly higher actual on-target damage than there is counterparts. Clans XL engine durability helps to reduce the affects of lower damage mitigation due to poor game performance in the medium and light-heavy ranges in comparison to there IS counterparts. The end results is that clan mechs seem to be over powered in clan warfare and pug matches where frame-rate is an issue and we are given a distorted view of game balance.

If PGI improves performance I strongly believe that you will see the “OP divide” shrink significantly and some very over powered IS builds, whose power is masked by game performance issues, will quickly become apparent.

Thoughts?

Edit:
If you compound this with Hit-registration issues and HSR "tom-foolery" it becomes even more pronounced.

I actually run all AMD with FX-9590 and R9-290X and have zero issues.

Also, the issue with Mining Collective that got the map pulled was for NVidia only cards, AMD was unaffected by the issue.

I never dip below 50 DPS in Community Warfare....my 9590 is stock, and so is my 290X and I run the game on ultra with 2xMSAA.

[Gyrok]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 04 February 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

The small CT hitbox of Stormcrow magnifies this problem many times over.
If hit reg is already difficult, small CT makes it worse.

Usually a mech slightly OP is not that big a deal, but Stormcrows are so common and often used multiple times in CW drops that it multiplies the problem by a high factor.

Not this again, get off of Stormcrows, you post in every thread you think they are OP. They are versatile...but far from OP.

To the OP:

I also offer you the fact that clans seem to have higher average skill, partially because they are mostly organized units dropping.

So, if you have higher average skill on one side, with equal numbers, you get the more skilled side winning out. It just comes to that.

While what you are saying may have a small impact, the reality is, I do as well in IS mechs as I do in clans, sometimes even better in IS mechs.

[Kdogg788]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 04 February 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

The small CT hitbox of Stormcrow magnifies this problem many times over.
If hit reg is already difficult, small CT makes it worse.

Usually a mech slightly OP is not that big a deal, but Stormcrows are so common and often used multiple times in CW drops that it multiplies the problem by a high factor.

Why bother when you can just leg the thing?

-k

[Nori Silverrage]

Kdogg788, on 04 February 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Why bother when you can just leg the thing?

-k

Yeah, almost died the other day from a FS-A wubbing my legs to death (lost one, the other had almost no armor left). And I was in a 2MPL 18SSRM SC. I would had died if a few teammates hadn't come over and scared him off.

[TripleEhBeef]

I get "meh but playable" framerates in CW. But I think having 20 ping kinda helps counter hitreg issues unless it's a know weapon specific one.

Still, a thousand likes be bestowed on the OP for making a logical and compelling argument instead of crying onto his keyboard.

[Adiuvo]

Laser hit reg is affected much more by FPS than burst weapons are. It's not about missing with lasers due to low frames, the actual registration becomes poor at lower frames.

[Davers]

My framerate is MUCH poorer in Clan fights than in IS fights or solo drops. I think all the additional missiles is the cause. I have an older rig. Guess I need to upgrade since at the current rate, CW will be purely Clan vs IS in a couple months.

[JadeTimberwolf]

I must say OP I love this post, However I use an AMD VGA myself and the only reason I have poor framerates is because I build my computer with an older motherboard and cpu to save on money, sucks having to work with a tight budget.

[Jetfire]

Also, few maps with Short Range focus. We need maps with less utility for long range sniping.

[Mcgral18]

Leeroy Mechkins, on 04 February 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

The small CT hitbox of Stormcrow magnifies this problem many times over.
If hit reg is already difficult, small CT makes it worse.

Fun fact, PGI also increased the damage resistance by 10% from a destroyed component.

60%, up from 50%.

[Screech]

OP lost me when he tried to say clans have a ballistic advantage over the IS.