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Ac Firing Rate/damage - A Breakdown (Plus Lasers!)

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#1 MauttyKoray

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 12:37 PM

WARNING: THIS IS AN INFORMATION/DISCUSSION THREAD ONLY, IT IS NOT TO BE USED AS A PRO/CON FOR GAME BALANCE WITHIN THIS THREAD, ONLY AS A DISCUSSION PIECE OF THE TABLE TOP RULES AND THEIR PROPER REALTIME TRANSLATIONS. VIOLATIONS WILL BE REPORTED IMMEDIATELY.

In the pursuit of science, math, and game balance!

As described by Battletech, an AC20:

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The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.


As described, an AC/20 is classified as a general rating for the ACs that do 20 damage over a 'round' (a round in TT is described as being a 10 second representation of time).

Currently our AC/20 does 20 damage and has a cooldown of 8 seconds, meaning it fires 2.5x faster than an actual AC/20, which actually makes it an AC/50.

Our current 1 shot AC/20 would only be able to fire every 10 seconds.

Lets go to one of the lore examples.

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An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.


So the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon (CSHC) fires 1 shell every second, doing 2 damage per shell, for a total of 20 damage every 10 seconds. Meanwhile, lets assume the Chemjet Gun fires every 2 second being 'slower', which means it would fire a 4 damage shell every 2 seconds, resulting in 20 damage every 10 seconds.

So by splitting up the cooldown versus the damage per 10 seconds (what the ACs rating actually stands for) we could readjust ACs and prevent them from being such ridiculously high pinpoint damage weapons, with ammo and armor balances to compensate.

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Now, lasers are in the same boat. Lasers also do a total amount of damage over 10 seconds. Now, while these are a bit trickier, it could be handled just as easily as ballistics.

Right now our Large Lasers (IS) do 9 damage over 4.25 seconds, meaning they actually do roughly 18 damage per second (at 8.5 seconds total). Reducing it to 5 Damage would leave it at 10 damage over 8.5 seconds, slightly faster than the 10 second round of TT, but in a good place overall. I believe roughly 4.5 damage would be nearer the correct amount.
Medium Lasers as an example would also change. Currently sitting at 5 damage every (roughly) 4 seconds, they do a total of about 10 damage a second normalized over several TT 'rounds'. Thus their damage would be reduced to around 2-2.25 per volley of laser.

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Lastly, this seems ridiculous as you may read it, however its more of an example piece and not intended to be used as balance discussion. I'm just really tired of seeing people complain that 'we would only fire every 10 seconds with TT rules' being used as a way to justify MWO's mechanic becoming more and more bloated over time (things are ridiculous with quirks).

Add in reduced armor (standard values, we currently have 2x or more last I knew), rebalanced ammunition per ton, and a rescaled heatcap (fewer weapons could be fired in a single 'shot' but weapons could be fired more often in groups of smaller weapons, fewer medium-large weapons, and chain fired with the largest weapons. It would definitely be a different type of game, in my opinion bring a lot more tactics, lance warfare, and player skill into and less about META Builds and PPFLD Alphas.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 February 2015 - 12:39 PM.


#2 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 12:58 PM

Having ACs do damage over 10s would be very, very bad.....

an AC2 dealing 2 damage over 10s? Dear god.....

Even an AC20 dealing damage over 10s.......the burst and spread crap in game now is horrid enough.


And besides, a TT turn is 10s. That is movement, firing, pilot effects, heat, coolant, firing, hitting, and reloading......

No single action takes the full 10s.

So, having them burst in shots of 2 with a high refire rate, maybe....AC2 1/1, with a 0.5s CD would be better then firing 2dmg over 10s......thats what? 0.2 dmg per shot? yikes.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 08 February 2015 - 12:59 PM.


#3 Nothing Whatsoever

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Posted 08 February 2015 - 02:37 PM

Yeah, I've been looking at this too, had the devs tried this from the beginning we likely would have been able to keep the original armor values and not have needed to see them doubled then see all of the other systems that were added in over time.

Here I have one manner of setting up weapons closer to the P&P framework with weapon profiles similar to what we have now, and its not in these tables, but I like the idea of increasing weapon variety as you mention where one AC/20 fires 2 damage projectiles, while another fires 4 or 6 damage projectiles, with different ammo counts and all having the same DPS:

Spoiler


#4 MauttyKoray

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 11:29 AM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 08 February 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

Having ACs do damage over 10s would be very, very bad.....

an AC2 dealing 2 damage over 10s? Dear god.....

Even an AC20 dealing damage over 10s.......the burst and spread crap in game now is horrid enough.


And besides, a TT turn is 10s. That is movement, firing, pilot effects, heat, coolant, firing, hitting, and reloading......

No single action takes the full 10s.

So, having them burst in shots of 2 with a high refire rate, maybe....AC2 1/1, with a 0.5s CD would be better then firing 2dmg over 10s......thats what? 0.2 dmg per shot? yikes.

I had simply made this as a discussion topic about the differences of TT and MWO ACs, not as a balance topic or AC Mechanic change.

Its just for good fun. However, the game does in fact describe ACs that fired many rounds (thought whether they be single shots or burst fire I am not sure). I'll quote it again below:

Quote

An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower, and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.


Whether that is referring to a round (TT 10 second round) or a single 'round' of the mech firing (10 shot burst) I'm not sure so I went with that I assumed was correct in it referring to the TT round. So it fired 1 shell per second doing 2 damage a shell. It said the larger gun fired slower so for example's sake I assumed it fired half the rate as an example for it would fire 1 shell every 2 seconds, doing 4 damage per shell. Its pretty crazy looking into the lore of the weapons and seeing all these different variations from manufacturers that are classified into the same weapon category for TT (or even in the actual lore it seems).

#5 terrycloth

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Posted 09 February 2015 - 12:12 PM

I think it's pretty obvious that 'round' means 'trigger pull' here and not combat round, since some ACs can fire multiple times per combat round. Since the AC20 always all hits in the same location, the burst is probably very very fast.





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