6 replies to this topic

[Miles McQuiston]

Currently ECM provides far to much protection and I think the way to fix it is through a combination of changes to how it works and adding some modules to enhance some aspects of play.

What to keep.
ECM should increase lock times as it already does.
ECM should continue to hide friendly units (with caveat)
BAP still counters at short ranges

What to add.
ECM jams signals. If jamming you are creating "noise". I.E moving under ECM will keep locks and LRMs from raining in, but will give away your position if active. Even if no line of site exists. Something like a seismic ping but out to about 800m.
BAP will allow for targeting mechs under ECM with line of site, but all missiles will receive a significant tracking reduction. Essentially line of site burns through ECM, but locks still take longer and missile tracking would be poor. Hence TAG and narc would help offset this reduction in tracking.
NARC is no longer hard counter to ECM, but instead will improve tracking on ECM shielded mechs. I think NARC should negate the reduced tracking so it remains viable. TAG would also negate the reduced tracking. In this scenario only BAP equipped mechs would be able to target through ECM and would only be able to do so with line of site. Artemis would also become more useful as it decreases lock time and increases tracking with line of site.


Modules To create some sensor variation
Recon module -- decrease range of mech detection by 300 meters maybe 200 meters. I.E. Enemy sensor range is reduced against your mech. Think of this like radar absorbent paint. So if you have range module and BAP enemy is still detected out at 900, but if not enemy can close to within 500 undetected. This would buff BAP and the range module. This would also allow all lights to scout to some degree. This module would work with ECM to reduce the range where the "ping" is seen to 500. 500 meters or greater would still keep your medium laser light mechs well detected before their weapons are effective and depending upon modules and BAP detected at standard ranges.

UAV changes. UAV would allow for targeting and missile fire, but tracking would be reduced by ECM in the area.

Thoughts?

[ExAstris]

ECM has been discussed to death and the threads won't go away until something gets done.

The majority of the players want it changed.

Anyone in their right mind knows its OP (in pug matches, where most of us play).

Nobody agrees on a solution. And PGI has refused to change it for years now, instead opting for a dozen bandaids no one asked for.



Been withholding financial contribution to MWO since ECM went live, will probably continue to do so until the stealth field gets removed.

[Aiden Skye]

How about we make ECM work like in lore. And implement a real information warfare system with real C3 networks active and passive sensors and all that Jazz?

[OldManRae_IS]

ECM can be a problem. However I find that it is also the way sensors and targeting is working and coded that is a big issue.

As an example. I was facing down the barrels of 3 clan mechs last night. 400m away in plain sight. They never showed up on sensors and I could not target them. Danced with them for 3 min. Never once did they become targetable or show up on sensors.

Another issue is enemies being able to sneak up behind you at point blank rage and never show up on your sensors. Face it sensors would be Omni-directional, and they are. You can see where your teammates are but not the enemy 50m behind you?

Or how about at least using some of those unused screens in the cockpit and have a basic rearview camera?

[Idealsuspect]

BAHS, on 10 February 2015 - 08:22 AM, said:

Modules To create some sensor variation
Recon module -- decrease range of mech detection by 300 meters maybe 200 meters. I.E. Enemy sensor range is reduced against your mech. Think of this like radar absorbent paint. So if you have range module and BAP enemy is still detected out at 900, but if not enemy can close to within 500 undetected. This would buff BAP and the range module. This would also allow all lights to scout to some degree. This module would work with ECM to reduce the range where the "ping" is seen to 500. 500 meters or greater would still keep your medium laser light mechs well detected before their weapons are effective and depending upon modules and BAP detected at standard ranges.

You crazy you want every mechs carry a BAP cause they will in fine carry it ... ( also less tonnage for weapon, less differents sort of loadouts also less variations in game ) and at last MWO will come back to lrms camping rain in both side where few suicider noobs will die more easy and fast...

In fine Teams with less kamikaze and more lrms ammo will win before game begin... No THANKS

[ExAstris]

Dorian Rae, on 12 February 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

ECM can be a problem. However I find that it is also the way sensors and targeting is working and coded that is a big issue.

As an example. I was facing down the barrels of 3 clan mechs last night. 400m away in plain sight. They never showed up on sensors and I could not target them. Danced with them for 3 min. Never once did they become targetable or show up on sensors.

What you're describing here is the stealth field. Its the part of ECM that prevents you from getting redboxes beyond 200-250m. It is by far the most powerful and game wrecking attribute of ECM because of how much control it has over basic information flow. Not only do those targets never show up as lockable for you, they also never show up as lockable (or on the minimap) for your allies.

Thus, not even good allies can possibly react because they're never aware. In 12v12 matches on VOIP, this isn't a big problem because people can and do call the target info. But in PUGs, where VOIP currently doesn't exist and isn't a solution this problem will persist. (most players won't speak, those that do are likely to just be raging and not saying anything useful, many people will just turn it off (myself included), and many will speak in other languages. So NO PGI, VOIP is not a solution)

If the stealth field was removed, then ECM would be fine in PUG matches. Players wouldn't be denied the most basic pieces of the information that guide their behavior in a match. And ECM could still even prevent you from getting a target identification (mech type/player name) along with the target's paper doll and weapons configuration. That's fine, but you can't deny basic target position data and redboxes. It messes with too much player behavior and basic game systems.

Hence, the stealth field has to go.

Edited by ExAstris, 13 February 2015 - 05:37 AM.

[Miles McQuiston]

Of note the guy saying that LRMs would be op given the changes showed a KDR for the catapult K2 which does not have LRMs. Cover will always win over LRMs when available. Tweak lock times for mechs protected by ECM to be greater if LRM power is even a concern. How many LRM mechs, who would need to carry BAP (standard anyway) would be OP if they needed line of site and locks took 5+ seconds. Not to mention if you reduced the ability for the LRMs to track mechs protected by ECM. The hit rates would be lower hence overall LRM damage would be lower. You might say what about a light mech who is spotting for the LRM mech, well how many light pilots now not concealed by ECM would want to hold a lock for 5+ seconds not knowing if the enemy has them on sensors and has dual gauss and advanced zoom trained on them. My point is with a reduction in the stealth power of ECM you now have a sensor range battle to be fought as opposed to what we have now, bring ECM so we are for all practical purposes invisible to all sensors.

With NARC no longer a hard counter for ECM sure you could fire at a NARC'd mechs but ECM would still reduce tracking.

In reality most players probably have an LRM hit rate between 25% and 45%. The changes I suggest would likely decrease this percentage. LRM tracking would be worse in general and ECM would give away your position. Thus ECM would be a trade to take. Maybe you tweak the ECM tracking reduction to shoot for a 15% to 35% hit rate. Thus an LRM boat can't easy button a 1000 damage, but is still relevant in every fight. LRM fire with reduced tracking ability due to ECM could still force enemies to move and take cover, but not land sufficient damage to be disproportionately powerful. People are always so concerned about LRM power. If this is such a concern have multiple ECM stack the tracking reduction. I.E. If protected by two ECM LRMs are able to fire, but the reduction in tracking will result in very little damage. Imagine LRM mechs having to think hard about when to fire and when not to fire.

ECM is a difficult subject because you can't just change ECM and have the problem fixed. The change has to involve multiple aspects in order to keep stealth a part of the game and improve the overall way sensor warfare works.

Stealth is an important aspect of every game and that is why I think the "recon module" is important. It would force a sensor range battle to some degree. If you have ERLL, ERPPC, GAUSs, BAP and range module are important to you. If you have only MPL seeing the enemy on sensors is fine at 600m and you would still see every other mech not running the recon module at 800m. There are not limitless module slots. Most mechs would have to choose between sensor range, radar derp, recon, adv target decay, seismic, etc for their mech modules. Thus you have a dynamic range detection of different mechs based off the choices they made for modules.