23 replies to this topic

[MauttyKoray]

WARNING: TROLL POSTS WILL BE IMMEDIATELY REPORTED FOR USELESS CONTENT. THIS TOPIC IS ABOUT THE PROS/CONS OF THIS MECHANIC AND ANY CHANGES THAT WOULD MAKE IT BETTER.

FIRST OFF: This idea would mean taking out the 'charge' mechanic for Gauss, as I think this is a better balance mechanic and more lore friendly.

-----------------------

In the Battletech books I've read so far I've only ever heard of a single Gauss Rifle being fired at once, though I assume with a powerful enough engine 2 could be...but that's only a guess.

The gauss rifle needs a large amount of energy and when fired, other energy based weapons have to by cycled as the gauss rifle has consumed enough energy to prevent them from being able to fire so...

-----------------------

Proposal - Gauss Rifle Energy Draw

-When Gauss is fired, large power consumption is created.
-1 or 2 Gauss rifles may be fired dependant upon engine rating. (to be determined by PGI, I don't know)
- When 1 Gauss is fired with a 2 Gauss able engine, small energy dependant weapons are still useable.
-Energy based weapons (lasers, PPCs, other Gauss) will cycle for 1-2 seconds dependant upon weapon size and engine rating.
-Allows for addition of quirk to increase the 'Gauss Rating' of engines and allow lore-friendly Gauss mechs to carry them with lowered power cycle penalty while using smaller engines. A ceiling would have to be implemented to prevent 2 Gauss with no cycle time, or at least make sure 2 Gauss still cycled Large weapons from Idea 1 with 3 Gauss Rating (2 from engine, 1 from quirk), giving them a unique place and balance.

-----------------------

I have two ideas for the spread of weapon categories viable for this listed below

(Please Note: The cycle time is a general format and could be changed to things like .75/1.5/2.25, or .75/1.5/2.5, or other formats, this would be balance decisions made by PGI and the community through testing)

Quote

Small Weapons (ex: 1 second cycle)
-(ER)Small Laser
-Small Pulse Laser
-Flamer
Medium Weapons (ex: 2 second cycle)
-(ER)Medium Laser
-Medium Pulse Laser
Large Weapons (ex: 3 second cycle)
-(ER)Large Laser
-Large Pulse Laser
-(ER)PPC
-Gauss Rifle

1 Gauss Rated Engine
-All Weapon Sizes must cycle power
2 Gauss Rated Engine
-Small Weapons Usable after Gauss is fired
-Medium/Large Weapons must cycle with a reduction of Small weapon's cycle time (1 second less in this example so Medium would be 1 second and Large would be 2 seconds)

(Please Note: The cycle time is a general format and could be changed to things like .75/1.5, or 1.0/2.5, or other formats, this would be a balance decision made by PGI and the community through testing)

Quote

Small Weapons (ex: 1 second cycle)
-(ER)Small Laser
-Small Pulse Laser
-Flamer
-(ER)Medium Laser
Large Weapons (ex: 2 second cycle)
-Medium Pulse Laser
-(ER)Large Laser
-Large Pulse Laser
-(ER)PPC
-Gauss Rifle

1 Gauss Rated Engine
-All Weapon Sizes must cycle power
2 Gauss Rated Engine
-Small Weapons Usable after Gauss is fired
-Large Weapons must cycle with a reduction of Small weapon's cycle time

Amendment to idea: The reduction to cycle time for larger weapons in 2 Gauss rate engines is just an idea I had and doesn't technically have to be part of it.

Other Weapons: Weaponry such as Missiles and ACs/LBXs do not use energy like Gauss, PPC, or Lasers. They use their own propulsion and thus are not affected by the power cycle time.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 February 2015 - 12:46 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

kapusta11, on 08 February 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Please do not spam the thread with useless garbage. If you'd like to take part and discuss this mechanic. The pros, cons, and any changes that may make it better, please do so. Post reported for topic trolling.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 February 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

I always felt we should have a sort of power draw type of mechanic that prevents us from group firing the PPC/GR together. lessen the Velocity on the Gauss so it isnt just a hit scan 15dmg 1 heat super sniper. It should require a bit of skill to aim, and shouldnt be able to fire more then 1. ERPPC the same thing...maybe PPC as well.

Increase the Cool downs on the GR as well. 4s up to like 6 or 7s. Then we can drop the charge all together. You can fire it when you want, but with maybe a 1500-1600ms velocity, a 6-7s CD and you can only fire 1 at a time, it would really limit its super hitscan sniper self. Make seems less OP.

[Tarl Cabot]

I understand the reason for the current mechanism, I disagree with its implementation. Instead of a pull/release it should be a double pull.

I would also add that the rifle's HP should be reset to the default HP as well as reset crit chance back to default setting. The rifle was build as a weapon of war, and it should not be more likely to explosion than an ammo bin.

[Bobzilla]

You have to take into consideration, pgi is not capable of doing much, let alone add a whole new aspect like a power pool. This is why we have ghost heat, charge up, and linked weapons, its the minimal effort solution.

[MauttyKoray]

kapusta11, on 08 February 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Aww hurt your feelings didn't I. Post reported for another "I've got killed by weapon X, nerf it now" thread.

Considering what you wrote here you obviously haven't read the OP, AT ALL. Reported for violation of thread rules and general negative attitude. Either participate in the topic or STAY OUT.

Tarl Cabot, on 08 February 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

I would also add that the rifle's HP should be reset to the default HP as well as reset crit chance back to default setting. The rifle was build as a weapon of war, and it should not be more likely to explosion than an ammo bin.

Definitely this, maybe a slightly higher crit chance than its default, less than or equal to an ammo bin maybe.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 February 2015 - 01:22 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

What is it with you folks and your 'gauss needs MASSIVE power that a fusion reactor can't actually provide!' mentality? Gauss weapons don't use THAT much energy, you can make one powered by a camera flash for pity's sake. Where do you people get the idea that you need more power than a fusion reactor could provide?

Oh, a novel that stated it...I see. Did you happen to notice that OTHER novels in the BTech universe(there's a ton of them btw) don't mention that fact? Did you happen to notice that multiple Mechs carry dual gauss and there is NO rule about firing only 1 at a time in rules? No? You missed that? Ok, that explains a lot doesn't it.

Gauss velocity lessened...um, no, how about we put it up where it SHOULD be, which is quite a bit higher than ever implemented in MWO, usually slightly below the velocity where friction from the atmosphere actually causes the projectile to melt(real world problem with military experimental versions of them btw).

PPCs need to be just slightly below the speed of light itself, since that's actually their real world velocity, not to mention how it's described in both the rules AND the novels, a blue-white bolt of lightening. Talk about a hitscan weapon, PPCs should be exactly that, point, fire, hits RIGHT there every single time because it moves THAT fast.

Now I could see a charge time for PPCs, after all, it does take a few microseconds to get those particles accelerated to the proper speeds and it does take a bit of power to do that, if only BTech had something like a portable fusion reactor to power them...oh..wait..it does! Well, so much for the power draw issue, thank the gods FASA thought to include a fusion reactor to power BattleMechs and all the weapon systems included on them, whew!

Seriously people, we can power gauss weapons today without the need of a nuclear, much less fusion, reactor, and we can power PPC weapons(they do exist) without them either, same with the lasers. And that's with technology TODAY, which doesn't even include working fusion reactors, so I'm pretty sure that technology that was MUCH more advanced 700 odd years from now(that's when a lot of this tech is at it's heyday) can probably produce better results with less power input.

[Joe Mallad]

i honestly would like the old Gauss fire mechanic back. But I also would like for them to not make convergence so easy/pinpoint either. If you have a mech that has duel Gauss in arms that can move and converge more easily, than so be it. But if you are running duel Gauss in a mech that has fixed arms and or if they are in the torsos... I think the weapons should not converge as they do. And the duel Gauss or any weapons for that matter, should fire to either side of your pointer.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 08 February 2015 - 01:23 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Kristov Kerensky, on 08 February 2015 - 01:20 PM, said:

What is it with you folks and your 'gauss needs MASSIVE power that a fusion reactor can't actually provide!' mentality? Gauss weapons don't use THAT much energy, you can make one powered by a camera flash for pity's sake. Where do you people get the idea that you need more power than a fusion reactor could provide?

Oh, a novel that stated it...I see. Did you happen to notice that OTHER novels in the BTech universe(there's a ton of them btw) don't mention that fact? Did you happen to notice that multiple Mechs carry dual gauss and there is NO rule about firing only 1 at a time in rules? No? You missed that? Ok, that explains a lot doesn't it.

Gauss does need a large power draw to operate, I don't know where you got that it doesn't. Yes, its in several books, and I never said that it was limited to 1 gauss rifle. I stated up in my OP that firing 1-2 of them with different power draws could be simulated by the rated engines and further augmented by a quirk for that aspect on mechs that naturally carry things like dual gauss.

As for why I started this? Gauss were meant to be sniper/support weapons, not all range all situation gods that they're used as now. This mechanic would orient gauss more as a sniper/support weapon while allowing it to still be used in a limited fashion while brawling, with the closest range weapons like small lasers being effective again shortly after (.5-1 second cycle?) and medium lasers being effective slightly after (1-1.5 second cycle?), etc.

As I've stated to the other Troll, either participate in this topic seriously or get out and stay out.

What I can gather from your post:
Pro
-Better than the push and hold

Con
-Reduce Gauss' role diversity.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 08 February 2015 - 01:30 PM.

[Herr Vorragend]

I support the OPs idea. The gauss charge punished especially faster moving single gauss mechs e.g. the dragon and some mediums. Also the hgn-hm is suffering from that. The recharge-time should be connected to the engine's size. A 350 reactor should recharge the gauss faster than a 250.

For example:
150 reactor, 1 gauss, 2ml: 3 seconds for the ml to be ready for being fired after a gauss-shot.
250 reactor, 1 gauss, 2ml: 2 seconds for the ml to be ready ...
350 reactor, 1 gauss, 2ml: 1 second fir the ml....

[pyrocomp]

Well, the idea to close off twin-Gauss (and tri-Gauss DWFs) builds from firing two gauss simultaneously won't change much in-game. Not so many of them are there and they are not that effective in PUG (in CW idk). Anyway, to balance multi-Gauss and twin AC/20 better and easier to introduce recoil and it's load on the frame. And bring recoil in game btw. If you have recoil, you have frame (internal structure) capable to withstand it. Overloading damages it (good bye AC/20 Raven as a joke it was it still is there). NB: novelizations state that Gauss shot can 'rock' even heavy mechs (lighter ones get shot-throgh).

For PPCs (and laser weapons) you have power cosumption and EMP-pulse when fired (see first Zeus variant for it's problems with shielding). Introduce that the and forget about PPC Ravens (and other not PPC friendly variants). Btw, present day laser cutting rigs do produce many nasty side effects.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Certainly an interesting Idea, if we keep to our current manner of firing weapons, I'd like to test this out if it can be coded into the cryengine. I think it can, and I remember that the devs have a system that is currently turned off that is designed to desync PPCs from Gauss.



I would prefer trying an enforced chairfire as the normal standard, regardless of weapon groups set up. This way we need to aim each weapon separately and possibly improve hit-reg since it should lower the volume of weapons fired during a match.

And we do have the Alpha Strike key that is currently redundant with how weapons can be fired from weapon groups. But I would have a spread in focus similar to how weapons spread when firing as you are using Jump Jets to have a trade-off.

[Kristov Kerensky]

MauttyKoray, on 08 February 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

Gauss does need a large power draw to operate, I don't know where you got that it doesn't. Yes, its in several books, and I never said that it was limited to 1 gauss rifle. I stated up in my OP that firing 1-2 of them with different power draws could be simulated by the rated engines and further augmented by a quirk for that aspect on mechs that naturally carry things like dual gauss.

As for why I started this? Gauss were meant to be sniper/support weapons, not all range all situation gods that they're used as now. This mechanic would orient gauss more as a sniper/support weapon while allowing it to still be used in a limited fashion while brawling, with the closest range weapons like small lasers being effective again shortly after (.5-1 second cycle?) and medium lasers being effective slightly after (1-1.5 second cycle?), etc.

As I've stated to the other Troll, either participate in this topic seriously or get out and stay out.

What I can gather from your post:
Pro
-Better than the push and hold

Con
-Reduce Gauss' role diversity.

I got the fact that gauss doesn't require a massive power output to operate from physics and the real world working gauss weapons in use today. You should take a few minutes to google gauss and coilgun instead of using what you read in a BTech novel as fact.

Gauss were added because they sounded really cool. I'm not making a joke either, 2750 TRO 1989, Gauss first added to the game, already had support and sniper weapons in the game, both on and off Mechs, Gauss was added because it was cool and it could rip the head off a Mech at ranges that nothing else, at the time, could match. Had your AC20 for the close up, Gauss for everything..unless it was within 2 hexes of you, because...uh..yeah...because. FASA didn't even give a REASON for the min range, they just did it. NEVER use FASA/ BTech as to why something should be balanced in any given way, FASA never understood nor gave a surat's furry rear end about balance, see the Clan Invasion for an excellent example of this in action, see the Jihad/Dark Ages for it's continuation.

And Mautty, most weapons in BTech don't actually have a real reason to exist in actual game play. Medium Lasers were the most commonly used weapons in BTech TT due to their tonnage/damage/heat/range profile compared to most weapons in the game, prior to the Clans. After the Clans, it was ERMeds. Jihad/Dark Ages, you've got other weapons that I quite honestly don't know nor care about, I never played those eras and never will, pure CotM surat fecal matter. You can TRY to force people to use specific weapon systems by literally gimping the other weapons systems, but that's taking away choices, not giving more. You want to nerf gauss to make other weapons more appealing, why? I personally see few gauss being used in PUG drops outside of CW, and I don't see a lot of gauss in CW. I don't even run my gauss heavy builds anymore, the charge mechanism makes them not worth the hassle, especially with the tonnage, space and that stupid as all ******* hells total lack of HP and high chance of blowing the **** up. Not worth taking usually, especially on IS Mechs and not really worth it on Clan, even my Dire's no longer pack Gauss and I was running a quad-Gauss for a while, not worth it.

[LordNothing]

the way the gauss works feels like a dirty interface screw. in other mechwarrior games you hit fire and your gauss fires. no charging mechanic. for some reason or other the gauss is a super weapon and you need to throw in a mechanic to make it harder to use than any other weapon. you can nerf or you can screw and i would prefer the former.

i would accept the gauss getting nerfed in any way if i can get rid of the charging mechanic. you could drop the damage down to 12, reduce ammo to about 8/ton, or add a second or two to the cooldown. if you did all 3 of these things and ditched the screw i would use the gauss a lot more than i do now.

id the problem is dual gaussers, then the solution is to force gauss weapons to chain fire. if you try to fire more than one in a short enough period of time, only one will be allowed to fire.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 February 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[LordNothing]

also as someone who knows a thing or three about ee, the charging mechanic is completely bogus. while it does take a time to charge the capacitor bank, this should be during the cool down. a weapon system must be ready to fire while it is armed, and thus a charge should be maintained. maintaining the charge consumes much less energy than charging it from nothing (ultra caps dont self discharge very quickly at all). all this stored energy gives you a reason why gauss weapons explode when critted, but ammo does not. shorting them caps == boom.

[pyrocomp]

LordNothing, on 08 February 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

also as someone who knows a thing or three about ee, the charging mechanic is completely bogus. while it does take a time to charge the capacitor bank, this should be during the cool down. a weapon system must be ready to fire while it is armed, and thus a charge should be maintained. maintaining the charge consumes much less energy than charging it from nothing (ultra caps dont self discharge very quickly at all). all this stored energy gives you a reason why gauss weapons explode when critted, but ammo does not. shorting them caps == boom.

Maybe then another button to "arm" energy weapons as they all have capacitor banks? And explode em also if critted when carged?

[IronLichRich]

I think gauss is in a pretty good place now. The limit of 2 charging at a time is reasonable. Power draw doesn't seem like it will solve anything.

So, we want to add power draw because it was in a novel?

As previous posters have said, the novels are a terrible place to take ideas from. As entertaining as they are, there were some pretty egregious things that took place.

Now, excuse me while I install small lasers on my timber wolves.

[Pjwned]

An arbitrary, needlessly complicated replacement for a mechanic that works fine as it is...

Nah.

The only thing that needs to change with gauss rifles is more time to hold the shot once it's charged, and for clan gauss rifles to have an extra drawback (such as increased explosion damage) for their lower weight & crit slots.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Let me introduce you to Homeless Bill's power draw mechanic that would deprecate Ghost Heat and could be used to lengthen TTK and negate power creep.

[CocoaJin]

I'm open to the idea the OP proposes, in part or maybe even in full. It's not a totally unreasonable mechanic, and proposes no suspension of belief to apply.

Edited by CocoaJin, 08 February 2015 - 10:54 PM.