54 replies to this topic

[Apnu]

LawDawg, on 09 February 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

I have Dropped 5 times tonight, 3 times we got LIGHT rushed by the IS (Kurita). Match didnt last more than 3-4 minutes. It was a 12 vs my 2 and various other Clans. Bottom line is we got smoked checked. Some will come cry on the forum about IS lights, ( wish Clans had more equals), but it is what is,

We (as Clans) just saw a huge surge of mercs to Kurita. Adapt. Adjust drop decks....? It will come, adjustments are being made.

Good Games with BWC and a few ACES tonight. <S>

Well its not anybody's fault that the Invasion mode is about avoidance of combat. Technically you can win a game of Invasion without killing a single mech.

PGI wants more brawling at the gate, then why invent a game mode whose best victory condition is to not fight?

Invasion should be King of the Hill. Defenders start with the hill, attackers have to push them off.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

mike29tw, on 09 February 2015 - 12:29 PM, said:

Honestly I have no clear solution to that. Maybe a speed reduction plus more severe heat penalty. Maybe 10 vs. 12. We won't know whether they'll work until they're in the game.

But you really can't deny the fact that Clan mechs enjoy the privilege of tonnage freed up by their Clan XL while being able to fight off ST destruction. In order to match up the firepower of a Clan mech, you have to go with IS XL engine, and when you're killed by ST destruction, your opponents can easily shrugged off similar damage done to you and live to fight another day. That is an advantage that cannot be ignored.

Indeed, I agree Clans have an edge. I just wanted to make a point that saying things such as "there is no excuse for that" is a little extreme when the answer is not obvious. Most suggestion have other issues involved and in some cases we've made those options more difficult because of quirks and nerfs. The topic deserves discussion, but it needs to be constructive and lots of folks are not constructive about this topic.

My own thoughts on the matter are this. Quirks have so far proven the most effective tool with the fewest drawbacks associated. The Thunderbolt is a fine example, it is almost on Clan levels of effectiveness even with a standard engine. However, it is only one mech and a 65 ton mech at that. I'm hoping for quirks on the Grasshopper to put it close to Timber Wolf levels. Then perhaps examine giving some of the IS 55 ton mechs a bit more so they can rival the Stormcrow. Worst case scenario, IS gets a super overpowered mech for a little while; not the end of the world.

[LawDawg]

Apnu, on 09 February 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Well its not anybody's fault that the Invasion mode is about avoidance of combat. Technically you can win a game of Invasion without killing a single mech.

PGI wants more brawling at the gate, then why invent a game mode whose best victory condition is to not fight?

Invasion should be King of the Hill. Defenders start with the hill, attackers have to push them off.

Agree, So im not b!ctching about what they did, but rather commending them. If it came off wrong, sorry, They played damn well which is why in another post, I said their unit.

The only problem I personally see right now, Is Clans cannot do the same thing. We have 1 viable light mech (kitfox). Say what you will about the others, but its the same for our Mediums, Heavy's and Assaluts.

On the Clan side we have 1 mech in each weight group that is worth ****. Damn, Do you EVER see a DireWolf? No, cause its a PIG. Now im just ranting.

[Vassago Rain]

LawDawg, on 09 February 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Agree, So im not b!ctching about what they did, but rather commending them. If it came off wrong, sorry, They played damn well which is why in another post, I said their unit.

The only problem I personally see right now, Is Clans cannot do the same thing. We have 1 viable light mech (kitfox). Say what you will about the others, but its the same for our Mediums, Heavy's and Assaluts.

On the Clan side we have 1 mech in each weight group that is worth ****. Damn, Do you EVER see a DireWolf? No, cause its a PIG. Now im just ranting.

In case you didn't notice, the IS also has about one mech per category worth its salt.

Firestarter, shadowhawk, thunderbolt, king crab. The lack of viable robots affects everybody, and kinda kills the fun of robot combat.

[Dawnstealer]

Der Hesse, on 09 February 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

Even better when several disconnect right in the beginning when they see a clan premade or even when seeing they have to attack.

That's the most annoying, for sure. I've pugged against prebuilt Clans and won, and granted it's a rare thing, but still: you have to try. You play and you get better.

The people who just bail out should have a day-ban or something - they utterly screw their team. That's four mechs lost without a shot being fired. That's 8% of the team just gone. That's a really, really steep hill to climb, especially against the Clans in CW.

[LawDawg]

Vassago Rain, on 09 February 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

In case you didn't notice, the IS also has about one mech per category worth its salt.

Firestarter, shadowhawk, thunderbolt, king crab. The lack of viable robots affects everybody, and kinda kills the fun of robot combat.

Boss.... Gonna throw a FLAG on that BS! <Lights> Spider/Raven/Firestarter/Jenner (ENOUGH said). <Mediums> Shadowhawk and Wolverine. <Heavy> Yeager, Thunderbolt, Dragon. <Assalut> Well, we see alot of Atlai on the field, not many Dire sir..............

[Apnu]

LawDawg, on 09 February 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

Agree, So im not b!ctching about what they did, but rather commending them. If it came off wrong, sorry, They played damn well which is why in another post, I said their unit.

The only problem I personally see right now, Is Clans cannot do the same thing. We have 1 viable light mech (kitfox). Say what you will about the others, but its the same for our Mediums, Heavy's and Assaluts.

On the Clan side we have 1 mech in each weight group that is worth ****. Damn, Do you EVER see a DireWolf? No, cause its a PIG. Now im just ranting.

Clans suffer from a lack of mechs, yes. However they do enjoy the benefits of the best medium in the game, the best heavy in the game and the best assault in the game, and all three of those mechs also happen to be the heaviest of each class therefore they can be the most armored.

IS can't say that. They can't say their best mechs are also the most armored of each class, nor have the best hard points, or have the hard point flexibility clan mechs have. Thoses clan mediums, heavies and assaults are the best of the best mechs.

Compare the TBR to the TDR-9S. 75 to 65 tons. TBR has better armor factor, better hit boxes, modular design. It can be a laser vomit mech, a missile boat, a ballistics boat or any blend in between. TDR-9S excels at ERPPCs only, have less AF to protect it and has that broad torso and XL engines usually too... well if they want speed they'll pack XLs. There's no comparison really. TDR-9S's shine in CW because of the choke points for defense, anywhere else and they're garbage.

DWF is a tough nut to crack. I've been on Vault counter-attacking against the clans (before the new counter attack mode) and I've seen teams simply park a couple of DWFs and TBRs on that hill and blow holes through any mech foolish enough to try and open the gates, while the other 8 were TBRs and SCRs waiting by the gates to mash the face of any fool who came through.

No wonder IS turned to the light rush. For the record every single PUG match I had in CW was like that. Always counter attacking the clans, always facing a 12 man. I never played a game against PUG clans, I don't think they exist.

Anyway, don't count the DWF out. It is a slow pig, yes, and I can't play assaults. Even the "fast ones" are too slow for me to pilot. Lights are too fast and twitchy for my shaky hands, so I stick to mediums and heavies, mostly mediums. But I have a healthy respect for the DWF, they take stupid amounts of punishment before they die, and heaven forbid you wind up in front of them.... yikes. I have a healthy respect for the DWF, and well piloted lights.

[Apnu]

LawDawg, on 09 February 2015 - 01:26 PM, said:

Boss.... Gonna throw a FLAG on that BS! <Lights> Spider/Raven/Firestarter/Jenner (ENOUGH said). <Mediums> Shadowhawk and Wolverine. <Heavy> Yeager, Thunderbolt, Dragon. <Assalut> Well, we see alot of Atlai on the field, not many Dire sir..............

Well there's no need to bring DWFs in CW. Why eat up 100 of your 240 tons in one mech? Especially when the very best mech in the game, the TBR is right there. A player can take two of them and still have room for the SCR and a KFX. TBR is the total package, speed, armor, hitboxes, flexible hardpoints, clan XL engines, clan DHS... Its no wonder that is the one mech you'll see at least three of in any PUG drop. Its also the reason why the heavy pub queue sits at 35% or better on any given night.

Beyond that, you're right. IS has more mech options to bring to CW than Clan. Clan mech are either the bee knees or horse dung. There's no middle ground and there's no awesome single role for them to fill like the TDR-9S.

[mekabuser]

i know how to take care of clan mechs.. i have to retrain 15 years of fighting mechs and become a filthy legger. its exactly what they deserve.

[LawDawg]

Apnu, on 09 February 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

<SNIP>

Come now, You cant say that. How often do you see a Dire on CW? Never.
Crab and Atlas, 2-4 per match.

Medium? Its the only medium we have have unless you want us to run a a HEAT BOX and shut down after 30 sec of chain fire on a well set up mech.

Look, I see it as this. Rock/Paper/Knife. You win some, Depending on what you dropped with, Then you lose some, on the same token.

[Ax2Grind]

Pat Kell, on 08 February 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

Clan mechs aren't out right better than IS mechs. When you get stomped, there are several factors involved. Team vs pugs, and Good builds vs silly builds are the biggest factors here. can't take a LRM boat as a pug and get mad when you get stomped....LRM's are nice if you have a designated spotter or know how to spot for yourself but most people can't do this and most pugs don't have designated spotters....Team work is OP period and stop bringing poor builds.

This.

Both mech types have certain advantages on the battlefield. Use em or lose em.

Edited by Ax2Grind, 09 February 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[LawDawg]

Apnu, on 09 February 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Well there's no need to bring DWFs in CW. Why eat up 100 of your 240 tons in one mech? Especially when the very best mech in the game, the TBR is right there. A player can take two of them and still have room for the SCR and a KFX. TBR is the total package, speed, armor, hitboxes, flexible hardpoints, clan XL engines, clan DHS... Its no wonder that is the one mech you'll see at least three of in any PUG drop. Its also the reason why the heavy pub queue sits at 35% or better on any given night.

Beyond that, you're right. IS has more mech options to bring to CW than Clan. Clan mech are either the bee knees or horse dung. There's no middle ground and there's no awesome single role for them to fill like the TDR-9S.

Cause the Dire is slow, oh wait........now your making this into a flame war?

[TygerLily]

Teamwork always trumps. BUT if you have two 100% equal teams, then it is likely the Clan team will win. In the real world, teams aren't 100% even and a 12-man of IS wil kill 12 Clan pugs every time. Likewise, an IS team versus Clan team will be more than just tech because in the real world teams aren't 100% even in skill...therefore there's room to keep increasing your win incrementally no matter what team you're on.

But the advancement of Clan tech will give a Clan team a buffer or margin for error due to it's fundamental power.

[Apnu]

LawDawg, on 09 February 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Come now, You cant say that. How often do you see a Dire on CW? Never.
Crab and Atlas, 2-4 per match.

Medium? Its the only medium we have have unless you want us to run a a HEAT BOX and shut down after 30 sec of chain fire on a well set up mech.

Look, I see it as this. Rock/Paper/Knife. You win some, Depending on what you dropped with, Then you lose some, on the same token.

I haven't dropped in CW for a while, still mastering the "good" CW mechs but when I did drop, I ran into DWFs fielded by Jade Falcon all the time. It seems that's changed from what I read on the forums. Clans apparently bring a wall of SCR, TBR, and HBR.

I dunno why IS players bring AS7 and KGC to CW, seems like a lot of tonnage eaten up by one mech of a 240 deck. But then, I also hear that IS players are trending to a couple of lights and then whatever after that, maybe a TDR and a 100 ton?

I also think ECM is a factor. Clans can bring a 65 ton ECM mech (that Loki is the only clan mech I want to drive, the rest don't appeal to me, though the Vulture comes close). Still clans can bring 65 tons with ECM. IS can't. If you want ECM cover you either give up a scout or bring a DDC.

Why the KGC? I dunno.

On your final point, I agree. It seems like much of CW is luck of the draw. If have a half hour to kill and want a CW match? I join a PUG. Let's presume I find a game in 5 minutes. That PUG has a crap shoot if they get a PUG or a premade. Given there's more teams playing clans than IS in the north of the map, I'm probably going to face a premade. Then I pick my deck. I have no idea what my PUG team is taking or what we want to do, so I guess. Then I guess again for the first mech, but I can talk in team chat for a little bit and sort of coordinate what I'm taking. Then we drop and its random chance if we picked the right mechs that can counter the opponent or roll over the opponent, or be rolled by the opponent.

Where's the skill in that? Where's the strategy in that?

LawDawg, on 09 February 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Cause the Dire is slow, oh wait........now your making this into a flame war?

No.

[Mystere]

TygerLily, on 09 February 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Teamwork always trumps. BUT if you have two 100% equal teams ...

You can never have two perfectly equal teams, even if they're all clones of a single person.

Show me any two teams in any professional sports ever that were perfectly equal to each other.

This is one of the most bogus things players of this game have used when talking about "balance" -- which, by the way, can also never be perfectly achieved.

Edited by Mystere, 09 February 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[TygerLily]

Mystere, on 09 February 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

You can never have two perfectly equal teams, even if they're all clones of a single person.

Show me any two teams in any professional sports ever that were perfectly equal to each other.

This is one of the most bogus things players of this game have used when talking about "balance" -- which, by the way, can also never be perfectly achieved.

You forgot to read the very next sentence I wrote which begins: "In the real world, teams aren't 100% even..."

If you respond without reading I don't know that we can converse! xD

Edited by TygerLily, 09 February 2015 - 02:14 PM.

[SethAbercromby]

I think the biggest issue is ghost dropping into Ceasce Fire. I'd suggest that 5-10 minutes before ceasefire, only 4 teams can que up for drops. This way, a 100% planet cannot be reset to 40% or less with just a large coordinated ghost drop 2 minutes before ceasefire.

This is in my opinion the worst offending mechanic in CW and a large contributor to the overall dissatisfaction of a lot of smaller units.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 09 February 2015 - 02:13 PM.

[LawDawg]

Apnu, on 09 February 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

I haven't dropped in CW for a while, still mastering the "good" CW mechs but when I did drop, I ran into DWFs fielded by Jade Falcon all the time. It seems that's changed from what I read on the forums. Clans apparently bring a wall of SCR, TBR, and HBR.

I dunno why IS players bring AS7 and KGC to CW, seems like a lot of tonnage eaten up by one mech of a 240 deck. But then, I also hear that IS players are trending to a couple of lights and then whatever after that, maybe a TDR and a 100 ton?

I also think ECM is a factor. Clans can bring a 65 ton ECM mech (that Loki is the only clan mech I want to drive, the rest don't appeal to me, though the Vulture comes close). Still clans can bring 65 tons with ECM. IS can't. If you want ECM cover you either give up a scout or bring a DDC.

Why the KGC? I dunno.

On your final point, I agree. It seems like much of CW is luck of the draw. If have a half hour to kill and want a CW match? I join a PUG. Let's presume I find a game in 5 minutes. That PUG has a crap shoot if they get a PUG or a premade. Given there's more teams playing clans than IS in the north of the map, I'm probably going to face a premade. Then I pick my deck. I have no idea what my PUG team is taking or what we want to do, so I guess. Then I guess again for the first mech, but I can talk in team chat for a little bit and sort of coordinate what I'm taking. Then we drop and its random chance if we picked the right mechs that can counter the opponent or roll over the opponent, or be rolled by the opponent.

Where's the skill in that? Where's the strategy in that?


No.

Seems like your catching on, since you havent played CW in a bit. A bit has changed with the Mercs and such, Its getting alot more interesting.

Alot of good 12's dropping on Kurita that have their **** together. So its going to be a fun week or 2.

[Cerlin]

Vassago Rain, on 08 February 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

But if everybody takes your advice, no one will ever drop against clans, and CW will remain a ghost town forever.

I mean, hey, I'm no VIDJAGAME DESIGNAH, who studied at videogame college, but in my humble opinion here, it would be better for everybody if clans weren't outright better than IS.

Damn It vassago. Making sense and making me give you likes. But yes I agree Is vs Clan balance is still quite off.

Edited by Cerlin, 09 February 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[AztecD]

10 vs 12 seems about right

2 clan stars vs 3 is lances