29 replies to this topic

[Votanin FleshRender]

I solo pug 90ish% of the time.

The reason I was asking, prior to 2 months ago, my team in D5 used to destroy a water push. Now we get flattened. Regularly. And I used to beg my C2 teams to avoid the inevitable doom of a water push. The first time last month a water push worked, I was stunned. Now, I advocate for them on the C2 start side. And I try like hell to get my D5 team to watch out for it (usually to no avail).

I just can't figure out why it's so successful now (from the C2 side) when it was a terrible idea before.

Quirks? More Ecm options (Hellbringer), making it easier? Has my Elo gone up and I'm facing better groups while carrying worse team mates? People are pushing better?

I doubt it's the nascar mentality, that's always been around. (Seriously always. Supermarkets have been aware for half a century that people are like cattle, and will almost always shop in a counterclockwise pattern, and have arranged their stores to take advantage of that tendency.). But as much as the nascar mentality has always been there, water pushes used to fail, horribly, and now they win, very handily. At least in my experience, lately.

I just don't understand!?!?!

[pyrocomp]

Votanin FleshRender, on 10 February 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

I solo pug 90ish% of the time.

The reason I was asking, prior to 2 months ago, my team in D5 used to destroy a water push. Now we get flattened. Regularly. And I used to beg my C2 teams to avoid the inevitable doom of a water push. The first time last month a water push worked, I was stunned. Now, I advocate for them on the C2 start side. And I try like hell to get my D5 team to watch out for it (usually to no avail).

I just can't figure out why it's so successful now (from the C2 side) when it was a terrible idea before.

Quirks? More Ecm options (Hellbringer), making it easier? Has my Elo gone up and I'm facing better groups while carrying worse team mates? People are pushing better?

I doubt it's the nascar mentality, that's always been around. (Seriously always. Supermarkets have been aware for half a century that people are like cattle, and will almost always shop in a counterclockwise pattern, and have arranged their stores to take advantage of that tendency.). But as much as the nascar mentality has always been there, water pushes used to fail, horribly, and now they win, very handily. At least in my experience, lately.

I just don't understand!?!?!

Add to cart less LRMs tube count per team, much flatter curve for those LRMs (hence more cover work perfectly, as example now small rock near the ship to the north provide cover from LRMs, which it didn't half a year ago). Plus, water push is often suggested, not 'happend' action. Normal cycle - to the cave or near it. Now compare everyone going same direction or have some idea of a plan, and just randomly wandering mechs...
Plus push water side layout is assymmetrical and really favours one side. Yet shore way feels different somehow.

Edited by pyrocomp, 10 February 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[Deathlike]

I don't think anything has changed... the thing is that anything revolving around the rocky areas around the cave and subsequently the waterfall area is a genuine death trap. While it is possible to bring all the firepower to bear, it is a wide open space so basically lots of things can be dumped into that area...

At this point, if you're not going through the cave with a side push along C3 or so, then you're pretty much setting yourself up for failure.

The shore works both ways, and it kinda amounts to which side is better at peaking or flanking than the other.

[AThousandD]

Since NASCAR was mentioned - it's a topic wholly deserving of its own discussion.

However, to put the long story short - it's a strange mixture of:

- crowd mentality and the crowd-fright of developing an advancing firing line with off-centre cross-firing positions; in essence, it's the "FLANK FLANK" mentality, in which there no longer is a main group and the flankers are the flank and the main group at the same time

- right-torso weapon mounts bias on most IS mechs explains the counter-clockwise direction

- last but not least, it's all because of LORDS; they are wholly and single-handedly responsible for spawning the murderball thing and promulgating it to the public queue. Their unabashed aggressive tactics relying on the Schwerpunkt tactical concept have eradicated most of free and creative tactical thought, leading many open-minded tactical thinkers, like myself, unwillingly forced into running with the crowd, as anything else will leave you out hanging to dry in ER PPC heat. Yes. It's the LORDS' fault, their fault in our Inner Sphere. Yes.

... and this is why water push! (although me myself, I am more of a fan of the shore push)

[Escef]

Votanin FleshRender, on 09 February 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

What's going on with the trend lately to water pushes on Forest Colony? A water push used to be CERTAIN DOOM (duh duh DUH!!!), but lately the team that starts at C2 has been pushing counterclockwise through the water and through the other team at will. If my team starts at D5 we get rolled, and if I'm on the C2 team, we slaughter the D5 team.

So, what changed?

The only thing that changed is that people finally broke out of the mental straightjacket and realized that a water rush takes advantage of the fact that the other team usually has its eyes elsewhere because no one water rushes...

[AThousandD]

... until it becomes the norm, just like Snow Colony the old C3 ridge stand-off contest spawned the flank right into the city and brawl norm and now there are signs of a revival of the C3 push, especially from the side of the map that starts up in the city.

[Escef]

AThousandD, on 10 February 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

- last but not least, it's all because of LORDS; they are wholly and single-handedly responsible for spawning the murderball thing and promulgating it to the public queue. Their unabashed aggressive tactics relying on the Schwerpunkt tactical concept have eradicated most of free and creative tactical thought, leading many open-minded tactical thinkers, like myself, unwillingly forced into running with the crowd, as anything else will leave you out hanging to dry in ER PPC heat. Yes. It's the LORDS' fault, their fault in our Inner Sphere. Yes.

As much as I dislike most of the Lords (one of them decided to troll my livestream this morning), I'm not going to give them that much credit. The murderball is Tactics 101, Massed Firepower. With or without the Lords, the murderball would come to be. And I'm not going to fault them for the pack mentality, that's human nature.

[AThousandD]

Yes, I was writing in jest, in earnest.

[Escef]

AThousandD, on 10 February 2015 - 06:29 AM, said:

Yes, I was writing in jest, in earnest.

Sometimes it's hard to tell. Text based medium leaves out a lot of nuance that would be in the spoken word.

[DONTOR]

Votanin FleshRender, on 09 February 2015 - 08:34 PM, said:

What's going on with the trend lately to water pushes on Forest Colony? A water push used to be CERTAIN DOOM (duh duh DUH!!!), but lately the team that starts at C2 has been pushing counterclockwise through the water and through the other team at will. If my team starts at D5 we get rolled, and if I'm on the C2 team, we slaughter the D5 team.

So, what changed?

I started doing that about 6 months ago , it worked everytime (with ECM), but you cant do it effectivly on conquest. Its a great tactic because you get the enemy team when they are at a low point, then circle around to their spawn (high ground) and wreck them from above its a great plan if your team will follow suit.