36 replies to this topic

[Death Mallet]

Gabriel Amarell, on 29 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

6.28.2012 I made a post pointing out what I personally view as unreasonable timetables for acquisition of in game items that is common to many “Free-to-Play” titles.. . . . .

Your opinion is noted.

However, PG is producing this game to make money. Any decisions on this topic are theirs to make and will be based on the revenue stream they need to generate from the title in order to continue development.

I find both your prices for mechs, as well as your amount of grind assumptions to be unreasonably low.

Since you are so concerned about grind time, and you have not purchased a founders pack, it's a reasonable assumption that you intend to be a purely free to play player. As a result, those of us who bought packs and/or will buy mechs and other in-game offerings will be supporting your ability to play this game for free.

Nothing wrong with that, that is your right in a F2P business model. But also means I don't think that your opinion on what is fair grind time or pricing holds much weight.

Edited by Death Mallet, 29 June 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[Atayu]

Gabriel Amarell, on 29 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

so, everyone is ok with funding the game via mech purchase, and everyone is ok with $15.00 a mech or 30 hours of grinding...

so, do you all intend to have 4 or 5 mechs, or do you intend to spend $150.00 on this game...

or spend hundreds of hours playing it...

I hope to spend hundreds of hours playing the game I hope it is that good.

Yoringa, on 29 June 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

What the OP says is not unreasonable. I don't know why people think you HAVE to strong arm people into spending money. Obviously there is going to be a bit of a grind, but it doesn't have to be unreasonable. This game in particular has a really nasty hook in terms of currency accumulation. The need to pay for repairs and such has the potential to make this game really unplayable. It's really disingenuous to make a free to play game, but make it so you HAVE to spend $x per month to play it. There are plenty of free to play games that strike a happy balance between grind and cash. They're not painful to play for free, but people still spend money on it because they enjoy the game. You don't have to hit people over the head for money if you make a good game and put reasonable terms on it.

They are not strong arming anyone into paying, They offered a way for people to help with development cost that belive in the game. If they make getting mech a short grind it will make the longgivity of the game go down. There is no need to ever pay a dime to play. You can start a free acount and work your way through. Will it take longer yep but it should. Honistly It seems how they are making the game you can take your first mech and set it up for your playstyle and compete against any mech in the game if you play your mech to its strengths and to your enemys weekness. If you want to pay to help with development, or want to advance a little faster spend some money, If you just want to play a great game and not pay anything plan to take a little more time to advance but atleast its not going to be like other F2P games where people that pay have stronger armor guns and such.

[BloodKite]

just push the launch button and we will feel much better w our "mech fix"

[RG Notch]

Sure make the grind easy and the $120 from the Founder's Pack are the last dollars they will see from me. I'm not paying real money for skins or anything that doesn't actually have an effect on the battle field, i.e. XP boost and C-Bill boost. If I don't need those then I will play for free. Good for you, good for me, not so good for PGI. In the end not good for all of us. I'm willing to pony up some cash to help them start, but my charity ends there. People underestimate how much time people will put in and over estimate how much money people spend on nonsense. If people want to play for free and watch the game go down the tubes or switch to P2W oh well. I have money, I will spend it if the game is fun and it helps me cut the grind. If I don't need to cut the grind I won't spend. Seems simple to me. Pay or grind enough to make it a choice. If there's no choice either way it sucks, but both will extremes will kill the game.
I get it people imagine a game where they play for free and others foot the bill. Just like communism it sounds good on paper.

[Gabriel Amarell]

Death Mallet, on 29 June 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Your opinion is noted.

However, PG is producing this game to make money. Any decisions on this topic are theirs to make and will be based on the revenue stream they need to generate from the title in order to continue development.

I find both your prices for mechs, as well as your amount of grind assumptions to be unreasonably low.

Since you are so concerned about grind time, and you have not purchased a founders pack, it's a reasonable assumption that you intend to be a purely free to play player. As a result, those of us who bought packs and/or will buy mechs and other in-game offerings will be supporting your ability to play this game for free.

Nothing wrong with that, that is your right in a F2P business model. But also means I don't think that your opinion on what is fair grind time or pricing holds much weight.

I havent bought a founders pack, I will not make any purchases until I see whether the payment scheme Piranha impliments is something I can live with. If the game developers announced today that mechs would be $5.00 I would be spending what I intend to spend today. If they announce mechs will be $15.00 or 30 hours of grinding I wont be playing the game at all. I am awaiting an announcement on prices which I feel is overdue at this point (even a preliminary announcement, subject to change before launch would be nice) I will pay prices I feel are reasonable.

[Mechteric]

Gabriel Amarell, on 29 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

The current full retail price (in the U.S.) for a game is $60.00 for that price players get everything the game has to offer. To me this means that for $60.00 I should be able to have every mech in the game.

You have made a false assumption that 60 dollars buys you everything in a full retail game. Not because you couldn't get all the content, its there for you sure, but how many people ultimately consume 100% of the content in that 60 dollars? For instance in Call of Duty Modern Warfare I don't go around using all the guns ALL THE TIME, I end up with a few I really like and use those over and over and over.

Indeed F2P games can be difficult to wrap your head/wallet around, but if you actually think about it, it kinda makes sense. If I were the kind of person who only is ever going to use one mech, I've just saved myself a lot of money for what would otherwise have been a 60 dollar purchase. Of course there's those who will end up going over that 60 dollars, but that's their choice.

[Zogrim]

Gabriel Amarell, on 29 June 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

or spend hundreds of hours playing it

That would be nice

MMO meant to be played for months and years (I play EvE for 5 years already, for example).. not finished in a day-two.

[Cid]

the game needs a solid and growing player base to be successful (and yes, that especially includes free players).
that means even those who don't want to invest shouldn't be forced to do so, if you have too much grind in the game in order to get a new mech you will loose players.

in other words, if the company is too greedy there will only be the 10.000 diehard fans left and the game will probably die a slow agonizing death, thats my prediction at least.
finding the right balance for in game credit rewards and real money costs for new mechs is extremely important.

look at league of legends, you can get any champion you want for a reasonable amount of time investment, while you are still able to buy the new champions for real money.
and the company makes a lot of extra cash with vanity stuff like custom skins.

i would think 3,50$ to 5$ for a new mech is a good price, and mechs with added bonus like increased income or exp could be at about 10$-13$.
custom paints/ skins should be at around 2-8$ in my opinion.
more then that would feel like it is overpriced for me.

look at it this way: if there are 15 mechs at release with 4 variants each and 10$ per mech it will cost you 600$ total to have all of them. you would probably invest a lot of money on top of of that for all the garage slots pretty steep, right?

so getting a new mech should be a micro payment, 3-5$, not 10$ for a light and increasingly more for the heavier types.

[CCC Dober]

As far as grind goes, I would go with the Mech release schedule and draw my conclusions from there. The time between 2 release dates must be enough to unlock new content completely and enjoy it until the next batch arrives. Whether you invest money to skip the grind or not is a personal decision. But I can definitely see people laying down money for the most wanted Mechs. I know I would stack my garage with Clan Omnis the moment they come to crash the party. I don't see me grinding money and wait any longer than I have to at that point. I wanted them to be part of the game at the beginning, but I can wait a bit longer. It's nothing compared to the last decade waiting for a worthy MW4 successor.

[Cid]

Death Mallet, on 29 June 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Your opinion is noted.

However, PG is producing this game to make money. Any decisions on this topic are theirs to make and will be based on the revenue stream they need to generate from the title in order to continue development.

I find both your prices for mechs, as well as your amount of grind assumptions to be unreasonably low.

Since you are so concerned about grind time, and you have not purchased a founders pack, it's a reasonable assumption that you intend to be a purely free to play player. As a result, those of us who bought packs and/or will buy mechs and other in-game offerings will be supporting your ability to play this game for free.

Nothing wrong with that, that is your right in a F2P business model. But also means I don't think that your opinion on what is fair grind time or pricing holds much weight.

first of all, you should have read the entire post.
second, without free players the game won't be a success, so i really hope PG isn't too greedy and especially doesn't walk the path of darkness with a hidden pay to win model.

it feels like you are all worrying about PG not eating enough money, i would worry more about a fair "non-greedy" f2p business model so even the non-mechwarrior fans enjoy playing the game and bring in their friends to try it out as well.

fp2 is successful through a large playerbase, not ripoff pricing in the cash shop, thats my experience at least.

[Eisenhorne]

I personally don't care how much things cost... I'm unlikely to spend more money than my $60 on this game for at least a year. I like the idea of having to grind for new mechs, and not just being given them.

I'll hoard my $80 of in-game currency for new mechs that I really want, and beyond that I should be good.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

People keep complaining as if it isn't a choice. They've already said and expressed NUMEROUS times that it WILL NOT be "pay 2 win". If you don't want to buy stuff, then don't buy stuff! Be a freeloader and just grind for all your C-Bills. Why is there still a debate here?

If paid content is overpriced than fewer people will buy it and they just hurt themselves in the process. Stop talking as if you HAVE to buy stuff when you do not have to buy anything.

[Kathapalt]

Bluten, on 29 June 2012 - 12:25 PM, said:

People keep complaining as if it isn't a choice. They've already said and expressed NUMEROUS times that it WILL NOT be "pay 2 win". If you don't want to buy stuff, then don't buy stuff! Be a freeloader and just grind for all your C-Bills. Why is there still a debate here?

If paid content is overpriced than fewer people will buy it and they just hurt themselves in the process. Stop talking as if you HAVE to buy stuff when you do not have to buy anything.

110% agreed and i dont know why people complain, in wow or Swtor people had to pay the monthly 10€ even if they could not get to the end game or sucked at pvp. in F2P you dont have to pay anything and still get everything.

[Cid]

the more grind there is in the game to get a new mech the more you feel the pressure to buy premium abo or pay for the mech with real money because it gets unbearable otherwise.
WOT is a good example here, without premium abo you had to grind money on low tier just to be able to compete with your high tier tanks.
even though it is technically a f2p model, the grind gets unbelievably high at top tier and often forces you to either pay real money or quit the game because the grind wasn't fun anymore.

[Cmdr Rad]

... As long as there's trading, selling, etc... I don't see a problem at all. I'm a firm believer in the way that Team Fortress 2 has been setup as Free to Play. Sure, they charge outrageous prices for stuff, but people still pay for that stuff. All of the non-cosmetic stuff can be acquired for free in-game, and even most of the cosmetic stuff can be acquired for free in-game. Furthermore, they have the free market balancing out everything, since you can simply trade out stuff you have for the stuff you want, as long as whoever you trade with finds what you offer of equal or greater value.

In these sorts of games, it comes down to two things: Your Time or Your Money. Most youth have more time to spend grinding on a game that they like to play, so they invest their time to get the things they want in game. Those with less time to play, like working adults, often invest money to make up for the time that they don't have, so they buy things. As long as buying only results in a reduction of time in acquiring something, and does not result in other exclusive mechanical advantages, then everything is okay. This is how Free 2 Play should work. If these damned posts keep popping up, I'll do a proper topic on it, and add it to the slurry.

The prices can be whatever PGI/IGP want, and they will likely price things as they feel the market will bear. If you look at Hawkeye's statistics, people that ordered the Legendary Founders package are nearly DOUBLE those who ordered the Elite Founders package. With that type of turnout, I imagine PGI will start high, and then lower their prices as necessary. After the first 3 months, they'll probably run mech sales.

[Glythe]

I have every tier 10 tank in world of tanks. I have 2 tier 8 artilleries, and 2 tier 9 mediums (getting very close to the third). I have a Jagtiger, T30, need 10k xp to turn my T28 into a T95 and I even have 180k experience stored on my Ferdinand in case they do come out with the second German TD line. In total I have about 30 tanks in my garage and several free slots. All told I've spent 15$ of my money playing the game. People have bought me premium and they have handed me gold because they wanted me to play for them.

Let me chime in here and say that I think you've got a well thought and well written argument but it just happens to be against what it takes to make a F2P system work. The point is that as good as I might be I don't make good money without premium or premium vehicles or both. When playing tanks I win a lot more than I lose in terms of overall victories and credits earned. But it takes a long time to grind money.... and it should. If you could grind for a vehicle in 5 hours where's the carrot? What makes you keep wanting to play? What makes you keep paying into the system?

All the high tier tanks I have were purchased with the help of premium tanks AND premium. Even the best players will hit a brick wall and that's the point. The good news is that I no longer have a need for premium; I play a few doubles and play my premium tanks once per day and that pays for everything else I'm going to play (win or lose).

One big difference with Mechwarrior online is that there is no tier grind ;you pick a role and play it right from the get go. There still has to be something you work to achieve..... or in reality you go play something else. So you will be able to play as an assault right from the get go but you WON'T be in an atlas (unless you have a founder package).

Free to play games are free to play up to a point. They let you play them to see if you like them and let you dictate how much content you buy. Maybe you just want to buy an atlas, maybe you want a fleet of mechs... that's up to you to decide. But if you want to achieve these goals in a timely manner you'll be paying one way or another.

aRottenKomquat, on 29 June 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

The difference is this game should focus on combat being fun. WoT seems to be all about fighting through sucky matchmaking to get to the top tiers, and IMO combat is rarely fun.

That's another really good point is that the grind of WoT is designed to tempt you to spend money as you suffer in tiers 5-7 (sometimes even in tier 8 or 9 depending on the tank).

Edited by Glythe, 29 June 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Freakiie]

First of all, I really don't get this "gotta catch em all mentality".

In NO way do you need ALL mechs. So if you want them all it should not be a piece of cake. There's a reason why we only start with 4 slots.

Furthermore, unlike Wot, there's no unlocking mechs. You just improve your crew and buy any mech you want the moment you got the cash for it. Most likely you'll start with enough cash to buy an Atlas straight away. In other words there's no reason to grind for mechs, except if you got the "gotta catch em all" obsession. Seriously, getting every mech with all variants? Really? You gonna play those mechs even once?

No you won't. Everyone will have a few favorite mechs. If they are here from the start you can start with at least one, perhaps even more depending on the weight class. You can play your favorite mech RIGHT AWAY. If you consider playing that for a new mech a grind, then A:) You made a wrong mech choice or B:) You don't really enjoy this game and perhaps should find another game. Like people have said, they are planning on spending 100 hrs+ on this game. Considering you don't have to go through a grind like WoT playing crappy tanks until you get one you like I don't see why you should farm a new assault in a few hours. Buying a mech should be something you do by the time you finally get bored of your first choice. There's no "damn this Jenner sucks, but soon I can upgrade to Hunchie and one day I'll have an Atlas!" in this game. Just go out there and get the Atlas if you want to pilot that.

In other words there is no grind. You can pick whatever mech you want and if you pick correctly you should easily enjoy yourself long enough that by the time a new mech comes out you want you easily got the c-bills to buy it. I just hope that we'll not get a system like WoT with an Assault barely being able to make credits. Of course, if you don't do anything and get blown up or manage to empty all your money without hitting anything you should lose some credits as a warning, but that should be it.