39 replies to this topic

[Shaio]

So the first Quirk pass is released and the Awesome received a much needed rejuvenation. Then comes the Thunderbolt, quite literally stealing the Awesome's Thunder.

The quirks seem to suggest that the TDR-9S is aimed at mid-long range direct fire support roll while the AWS-9M fills out the long-extreme range direct fire support roll. Now the AWS-9M dose alright in this roll but it dose not standout enough that you should ever consider taking it over the TDR-9S with its superior hard-points and sustained fire. To really make the AWS-9M stand out as the definitive ER PPC sniper you would need to Double ER PPC velocity or better.

So with the exception of slapping on an additional 25% heat generation bonus, what would you adjust on the AWS-9M or even the AWS-8Q to bring out the PPC potential of the Awesome.

P.S
This topic is about the Awesome and not the Thunderbolt as PGI has already stated the the TDR is working as intended. As much as I would love to see the quirks swapped between the TDR-9S and the AWS-9M it is not likely to happen.

Edited by Shaio, 11 February 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Maybe the Awsome will get some serious armor and structure increases like has been talked about with the Atlas? Its true the Thunderbolt really did take the PPC Specialization away. I always liked the Thunderbolt so no complaints here, but the Awsome is great to. I hope it gets something.

[Tarogato]

PGI, please exhange the weapon quirks between the 9S and the 9M. That would fix all of the whining overnight.

---

TDR-9S

50% ER PPC Heat Generation (25% to general energy)
25% ER PPC Cooldown (12.5% to general energy)
15% ER PPC Velocity
15% Energy Duration

AWS-9M

25% ER PPC Heat Generation (12.5% to general energy)
15% ER PPC Cooldown (15% to general energy)
25% ER PPC Velocity
25% ER PPC Range (12.5% to general energy)
15% Laser Duration

---

The TDR gets superior cooldown and heat generation, which are the most useful quirks, while the AWS gets superior velocity and range, which are by comparison... pretty meh quirks because what use are superior ER PPCs if you can use them as efficiently as the 9S can? The Awesome has the FASA-given right to be AWESOME at PPC boating. Right now... it's merely second class to a mech that's 15 tons lighter.

[Kiiyor]

Shaio, on 11 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

So the first Quirk pass is released and the Awesome received a much needed rejuvenation. Then comes the Thunderbolt, quite literally stealing the Awesome's Thunder.

The quirks seem to suggest that the TDR-9S is aimed at mid-long range direct fire support roll while the AWS-9M fills out the long-extreme range direct fire support roll. Now the AWS-9M dose alright in this roll but it dose not standout enough that you should ever consider taking it over the TDR-9S with its superior hard-points and sustained fire. To really make the AWS-9M stand out as the definitive ER PPC sniper you would need to Double ER PPC velocity or better.

So with the exception of slapping on an additional 25% heat generation bonus, what would you adjust on the AWS-9M or even the AWS-8Q to bring out the PPC potential of the Awesome.

The Awesome is worse in every conceivable way to the TDR. I have around 3K drops in my Awesomes now (and probably more leading back to CB) and that whole "lipstick on a pig" thing very much applies here.

The issue with the Awesome is that it just isn't... useable. You have to expose every single pixel of your torsos to be able to fire, which dramatically increases the amount of face time you have to give the enemy to fire a weapon that is all about PPFLD, and should in theory be all about quick exposures and quick withdrawls. Instead, the design of the Awesome exposes you to more fire than any other mech i've seen - DireWolves included.

Also, the nature of many map hitboxes and your knee height hardpoint placement means that you often won't be able to hit anything elevated above you at all.

You can stand off at long range, but for the Sphere, "long range" is more like medium range nowadays.

The extra armour quirks were nice, but they only apply a bandaid to the actual issue with the Awesome - it's hitboxes. It has ludicrously short legs, and enormously tall and wide torsos. This means that DOT weapons, like all Clan weapons, have an enormous advantage when applying fire to your poor, fat, heaving bulk.

There were times where the meta was changed to the point where the Awesomes became at least minimally viable, but nowadays they are a relic. The only successful playstyle I've been able to adopt is to play like an extremely fat, slow, ponderous and fragile light; where you hide until the battle is underway, look for opportunity targets, and hope to god no-one notices you when you pop out to fire.

IMHO, the PPC buffs to the Awesomes should be all about speed. Give them a dramatic increase to PPC velocity. 2000m/s.

[Sable]

i don't think the awesomes need any adjustment. The problem mech is the Thunderbolt 9s. I've had many arguements with metawhore unit mates that claim it's just fine but it really isn't

If you look at the mech from a balance perspective it is way too good at what it's used for right now. You can run 3 ER PPCs mounted high on the mech with a standard engine with reasonable speed, a lot of armor, extreme range and incredible heat efficiency, while also being less in tonnage. It has a lot of positives, now for balance sake you would think there would be some kind of negative or weekness but there isn't and this is where the problem is.

The awesomes on the other hand even with quirks cannot measure up to the same efficiency. AND to get anywhere close to the 9S the awesomes have to take an XL engine. The awesome is also not as well armored and is as big as a barn. Even if the awesome had the same heat efficiencies as the thunderbolt it is still less armored, easier to hit, and it's XL makes it more vulnerable. It's weaknesses make it more balanced as a whole with it's negatives knocking down some of it's positives. The thunderbolt does not have this balance, it only has positives.

The warhawk prime with 3 ER PPCs and 28 double heat sinks is still 12% less heat efficient than the thunderbolt with 14 double heat sinks. It's got literally twice as many heat sinks and it still can not keep up with the thunderbolt 9S. It needs to be addressed and i pray that it is with quirk pass 2.

Another strong mech is the 5S commonly known as the thunderwub. It's negative is that it has to get in close. It's original quirks were also out of balance and PGI realized this and toned it down some. It's still good but far more balanced than it was. While the 9S has gone untouched.

Edited by Sable, 11 February 2015 - 06:49 PM.

[Macksheen]

I'd be down with like 100% PPC and ERPPC speeds on the 9M and 8Q.

Though, really they are supposed to be better at heat - that's the whole point of the wide frame. How about tone down the T-Bolt a bit, up the heat savings to the current T-Bolt or higher level on the AWS but do NOT give the AWS a cooldown boost.

Give the T-bolt some cooldown and some heat; Give the AWS big heat savings and speed.

The first pass was very formulaic - I get it - they needed to do scores of mechs. Now fine-tune them for individual models.

[Mister Blastman]

Shaio, on 11 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

So with the exception of slapping on an additional 25% heat generation bonus, what would you adjust on the AWS-9M or even the AWS-8Q to bring out the PPC potential of the Awesome.

I wouldn't give the 9M PPC buffs. Instead, give it 50% less heat to pulse lasers (all sizes), 50% cooldown decrease and 50% fire duration decrease.

It'd make it unique. Kind of like that fat boy in school. You know the one. The creepy guy at the lunchroom table nobody talked to. He was there. Quiet, in the corner, watching everyone. He was the guy the girls would think about when they were after school and the halls were empty... leaving the locker rooms, walking the dark halls. And there he'd be, behind them. Breathing heavily, softly, to himself, as drool dripped off his chin while he stalked his next prey.

[MauttyKoray]

Shaio, on 11 February 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

So the first Quirk pass is released and the Awesome received a much needed rejuvenation. Then comes the Thunderbolt, quite literally stealing the Awesome's Thunder.

The quirks seem to suggest that the TDR-9S is aimed at mid-long range direct fire support roll while the AWS-9M fills out the long-extreme range direct fire support roll. Now the AWS-9M dose alright in this roll but it dose not standout enough that you should ever consider taking it over the TDR-9S with its superior hard-points and sustained fire. To really make the AWS-9M stand out as the definitive ER PPC sniper you would need to Double ER PPC velocity or better.

So with the exception of slapping on an additional 25% heat generation bonus, what would you adjust on the AWS-9M or even the AWS-8Q to bring out the PPC potential of the Awesome.

I would reduce the TDR-9S quirks to aim at accommodating 2 ERPPCs, not 3.

[DjPush]

What day is it? It's like ground hog day with this topic. Do I get to go punch some one in the street and wake up in the morning like it never happened?

[Shaio]

This topic is about the Awesome and not the Thunderbolt as PGI has already stated the the TDR is working as intended. As much as I would love to see the quirks swapped between the TDR-9S and the AWS-9M it is not likely to happen.

[Ultimax]

Kiiyor, on 11 February 2015 - 06:32 PM, said:

The issue with the Awesome is that it just isn't... useable. You have to expose every single pixel of your torsos to be able to fire, which dramatically increases the amount of face time you have to give the enemy to fire a weapon that is all about PPFLD, and should in theory be all about quick exposures and quick withdrawls. Instead, the design of the Awesome exposes you to more fire than any other mech i've seen - DireWolves included.

Also, the nature of many map hitboxes and your knee height hardpoint placement means that you often won't be able to hit anything elevated above you at all.

This is why taking it away from the 9S and giving it to the Awesome only satisfies players who think TT should define everything or this game.


It would be a nerf to the IS faction as a whole to do take quirks away from the 9S.




Game balance trumps snowflake fluff. You want to give similar quirks to the 9M and take it's velocity quirks down? Go for it.

Taking it away from the 9S would be extremely bad for CW balance between factions.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 February 2015 - 09:17 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Awesome is the new Heavy, Thunderbolt is the new Assault.

Ignore the tonnage numbers, but wait, we have CW now where tonnage is supposed to grant something for the amount of total dropweight required.

[wanderer]

I'd actually tweak things as follows.

1) Scrap the cooldown quirks for the Thunderbolt-9S. This cuts it's ROF considerably, as it loses that 25% cooldown bonus.
2) Remove the duration tweak from the Awesome-9M, swap it's ER PPC heat and energy quirks to 25% each.

Voila. The -9M can crack off ERPPC barrages like nature intended and the Thunderbolt becomes Awesome Jr., as a 65 tonner vs. an 80 tonner should. It can stay an ERPPC boat, but the Awesome-9M will have a higher rate of fire for it's guns.

[MauttyKoray]

Ultimatum X, on 11 February 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

This is why taking it away from the 9S and giving it to the Awesome only satisfies players who think TT should define everything or this game.


It would be a nerf to the IS faction as a whole to do take quirks away from the 9S.




Game balance trumps snowflake fluff. You want to give similar quirks to the 9M and take it's velocity quirks down? Go for it.

Taking it away from the 9S would be extremely bad for CW balance between factions.

So you're saying you want the game imbalanced, making the Awesome useless and the Thunderbolt the new Awesome, instead of fixing it right? If you can convince PGI to reimburse my time invested on Awesome chassis (both the CBills used to buy it, and the real money time investment I've spent using them) I'll be happy to leave the TDR alone, but the fact is the TDR's quirks makes an entire 2 variants of a chassis USELESS. If that's the kind of balance you want, then you're obviously not int this for the game's balance, solely to give you/your team an advantageous weapon.

TL;DR - A 65 tonner out-performing an 80 tonner in its respective role is ridiculous. The Awesome's trade off for its high PPC boat firepower is its massive hit boxes, meanwhile the TDR has better speed, better hit boxes, and actually performs better than the ERPPC Awesome. Uh huh...balanced...right...

If you want to consider the TDR-9S balanced against the clans you're doing it wrong. Even as a current clan pilot I will admit that the timberwolf, stormcrow, and to a lesser extent the direwolf and hellbringer are all overpowered. However, this has less to do with them as a chassis, and more to do with the current bloated game mechanics making boating large amounts of firepower the best thing to do.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 11 February 2015 - 09:39 PM.

[Sable]

Ultimatum X, on 11 February 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

It would be a nerf to the IS faction as a whole to do take quirks away from the 9S.


Taking it away from the 9S would be extremely bad for CW balance between factions.

I laughed when i read these two things. The 9S is the reason CW is out of balance. The only people that say there isn't a problem are the ones exploiting the brokenness of the 9S. If there is only 1 mech people are using and the 1 mech is the reason IS pilots are successful, i can't see that being "good" or "balanced" for the game. It's blatantly better than every single IS mech. So much so that everyone stacks them in their deck. I know people that take 3 of them into a match because they see no other mech as valuable.

PPCs have been a sore spot in MWO for the longest time and when they changed their projectile speed and heat levels it finally rained them into a nice spot. Then they go and break that all over again in one mech and close their eyes to the problem they RE-created.

[Ultimax]

Sable, on 11 February 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

I laughed when i read these two things. The 9S is the reason CW is out of balance. The only people that say there isn't a problem are the ones exploiting the brokenness of the 9S.

If you can't counter snipe with CERLLAS, or win exchanges with Laser Vomit at mid-range, that's a pilot issue.


I've played clan side in CW, and dodging ERPPCs from 9S at 800m while keeping CERLLAS on target is not difficult.

[MauttyKoray]

Ultimatum X, on 11 February 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

If you can't counter snipe with CERLLAS, or win exchanges with Laser Vomit at mid-range, that's a pilot issue.


I've played clan side in CW, and dodging ERPPCs from 9S at 800m while keeping CERLLAS on target is not difficult.

Because a weapon that can be shot, and then duck out of fire with...is equal in exchanged to a weapon that must be held on target for the duration, and require you to expose yourself the whole time...

....
....
....

I'm not gonna even try, I doubt you'd get it.

[Sable]

When a drop deck is 11 Thunderbolt 9S's and a ECM light mech for every single drop i would say there is a problem with game balance. I've seen my own unit do it many many times all the while claiming there's nothing wrong, and in most matches we barely even get on our second mechs before we've killed all 48 of theirs.

Cutting the highest heat weapon in the game by half for 1 mech was a stupid decision. Leaving it that way for this long was even more stupid.

The PPC's drawback is that it's supposed to have high heat. Every single time it hasn't had that drawback it's been heavily abused. Back in beta when they had heat at 7 for PPCs and 10 for ERs, thats all anybody would ever use. Even after that people still preferred them to lasers until the projectile speed change. Then they were FINALLY in a good spot. PGI then goes and say's F that lets throw that mess right back in there on one mech.

Edited by Sable, 11 February 2015 - 11:19 PM.

[Lily from animove]

Sable, on 11 February 2015 - 11:14 PM, said:

When a drop deck is 11 Thunderbolt 9S's and a ECM light mech for every single drop i would say there is a problem with game balance.

No, then its balanced because everyone has the same in the game

However chassis balance then is totally broken. And its truly getting a bit boring.

[Lyoto Machida]

Mister Blastman, on 11 February 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

I wouldn't give the 9M PPC buffs. Instead, give it 50% less heat to pulse lasers (all sizes), 50% cooldown decrease and 50% fire duration decrease.

It'd make it unique. Kind of like that fat boy in school. You know the one. The creepy guy at the lunchroom table nobody talked to. He was there. Quiet, in the corner, watching everyone. He was the guy the girls would think about when they were after school and the halls were empty... leaving the locker rooms, walking the dark halls. And there he'd be, behind them. Breathing heavily, softly, to himself, as drool dripped off his chin while he stalked his next prey.