28 replies to this topic

[Lordred]

I propose that we change speed tweak slightly.

Instead of speeding up mechs by 10%, lets use speed tweak to bring the mechs up to their full speed.

With this change, any mech which has speed tweak will run its full rated speed, and any mech which does not yet have speed tweak will run at 91% speed (90.9090909% rounded up)

(examples, there are lots of speeds not listed, even some faster then listed, but this is just an example)






Opens up head room for MASC implementation, as PGI has stated that the fast mechs are currently too fast for HSR to work if we gave them MASC.


Thanks for reading.

[Lordred]

Anyone have any input on the idea?

[Joshua Rael]

This idea is to benefit IS mechs only and will hurt Clan mechs.

[Lordred]

Joshua Rael, on 13 February 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

This idea is to benefit IS mechs only and will hurt Clan mechs.

How?

[Trolzylulzy]

This seems needlessly complicated. As is, regardless of speed tweak or not, with MASC IS lights will still be going too fast for hit reg to be any form of reliable. If we take your idea, a tweaked MASC Locust will still be going ~270 KPH. Granted, it'd probably kill itself from the usage, but it would be effectively invincible while doing so.

[Tarogato]

Trolzylulzy, on 13 February 2015 - 09:30 PM, said:

This seems needlessly complicated. As is, regardless of speed tweak or not, with MASC IS lights will still be going too fast for hit reg to be any form of reliable. If we take your idea, a tweaked MASC Locust will still be going ~270 KPH. Granted, it'd probably kill itself from the usage, but it would be effectively invincible while doing so.

A: it's not complicated at all, quite the contrary.

B: Where in the heck are you getting 270kph? First of all, we don't have MASC Locusts until the 3070s, so they're beyond the scope of MWO and will never be introduced. Second of all, even those variants only reached speeds of 180kph, with the exception of the LCT-6M which had a whopping 280XL engine, which was the sole reason it could reach 300kph.

C: The Firemoth would still be implausible, as it goes 162kph without MASC and 216 with MASC. That's a Clan mech, and would be faster than anything that the IS can field in the current timeline. =]

[Nightshade24]

I vote yes for many reasons.

1) Makes the game feel more lore friendly and will give lights new engines caps that can diversify all mechs 15 to 45 tons.

2) Makes MASC able to come into the game, mechs on hold that's already made are...
-Flea
-Cataphract (3L)

3) Makes mechs that are not made yet, but are still on hold able to come into game.

-Firemoth
-Shadowcat (3050 introduction, clan verse clan date so to say, clan verse IS date/ IS first sighting is 3052)
-Executioner

and many more.


Quirks revolving around MASC and MASC capabilities can be a new aspect of the game and speed quirks can be another thing (as we saw with the summoner)


4) The skills and stuff really need a reworking... this is a good start.

[Kalimaster]

There are other ways of getting more speed out of a Mech. Okay, here it is one the line. Each engine has slots. Some of them will allow you to fit in a Heat Sink internally. What if we took those slots, and fitted sub components into them, smaller components that could only be found on some future map yet to be devised. Capture a factory, get engine parts, slap them into your Mech for better performance.

[Myke Pantera]

I'd rather see HSR fixed and MASC implemented like this in the meantime. Constant speed gain and weight dependent charge times would work around HSR issues quite well. Or at least not break it more than it currently is.

[Trolzylulzy]

Tarogato, on 13 February 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

A: it's not complicated at all, quite the contrary.

B: Where in the heck are you getting 270kph? First of all, we don't have MASC Locusts until the 3070s, so they're beyond the scope of MWO and will never be introduced. Second of all, even those variants only reached speeds of 180kph, with the exception of the LCT-6M which had a whopping 280XL engine, which was the sole reason it could reach 300kph.

C: The Firemoth would still be implausible, as it goes 162kph without MASC and 216 with MASC. That's a Clan mech, and would be faster than anything that the IS can field in the current timeline. =]

A: It is needlessly complicated because it replaces a factor which essentially does the same thing, but only making the mechs a fraction slower.

B: I'm getting 270 KPH because MASC increases the speed of a mech by ~75% when in use, therefore a Locust with a 190Xl Engine, which normally goes ~162 KPH will vbe accelerated to upwards of ~270 KPH.

C: I did not know about this mech, but I agree that, yes, it would be implausible.

[Burktross]

This... does not make sense.
Mastering mechs to get unnerfed?

Nightshade24, on 14 February 2015 - 12:47 AM, said:

I vote yes for many reasons.

1) Makes the game feel more lore friendly and will give lights new engines caps that can diversify all mechs 15 to 45 tons.

2) Makes MASC able to come into the game, mechs on hold that's already made are...
-Flea
-Cataphract (3L)

3) Makes mechs that are not made yet, but are still on hold able to come into game.

-Firemoth
-Shadowcat (3050 introduction, clan verse clan date so to say, clan verse IS date/ IS first sighting is 3052)
-Executioner

and many more.


Quirks revolving around MASC and MASC capabilities can be a new aspect of the game and speed quirks can be another thing (as we saw with the summoner)


4) The skills and stuff really need a reworking... this is a good start.

1) The opposite. Stock mechs will now be anti-lore with slower speeds to boot.
2) There needs to be a lot more room for masc.
3) see number 2
4) This isn't a skill reworking, this just nerfs un-elited mechs needlessly.

64.8 is slow as it is. I don't want to buy 3 mechs just to raise it from 58.

OP, I don't get it. Why are you so insistent on making mechs slower as to make a second thread trying to get it?

Edited by Burktross, 14 February 2015 - 12:45 PM.

[Wing 0]

The game's Engine itself would never be able to handle anything over 150 KPH speed. Has to take FPS and all into account.

[Tarogato]

Trolzylulzy, on 14 February 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

B: I'm getting 270 KPH because MASC increases the speed of a mech by ~75% when in use, therefore a Locust with a 190Xl Engine, which normally goes ~162 KPH will vbe accelerated to upwards of ~270 KPH.

Close, but not correct.

(normal kph) = (MASC kph) * (0.75)
or
(MASC kph) = (normal kph) ÷ (0.75)
or
(MASC kph) = (normal kph) * (1.3333...)

---

So if our beloved XL190 Locust had MASC and speedtweak, it would go

169.3kph * 1.333... = 225.73kph.

Without Speedtweak, MASC would still give it 205.19kph, which is still quite above the limit that the game engine can handle before hitreg becomes unacceptable.

Edited by Tarogato, 14 February 2015 - 12:59 PM.

[Trolzylulzy]

Tarogato, on 14 February 2015 - 12:54 PM, said:

Close, but not correct.

(normal kph) = (MASC kph) * (0.75)
or
(MASC kph) = (normal kph) ÷ (0.75)
or
(MASC kph) = (normal kph) * (1.3333...)

---

So if our beloved XL190 Locust had MASC and speedtweak, it would go

169.3kph * 1.333... = 225.73kph.

Gotcha. I must've mucked something up when I was looking at MASC.

[Tarogato]

Trolzylulzy, on 14 February 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

A: It is needlessly complicated because it replaces a factor which essentially does the same thing, but only making the mechs a fraction slower.

See my point below.

Burktross, on 14 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

This... does not make sense.
Mastering mechs to get unnerfed?

Isn't that exactly what we have already? No, I'm not supporting Lordred's argument, but your counterargument is flawed.

Right now if you buy a new mech, it's pre-nerfed, as in it does not move as fast as it will when you get speedtweak. Whether you use Speedtweak to add 15kph to the lore speed or you subtract 15kph from lore speed to get Pre-tweak... makes no difference. It's literally the exact same system, +/- 15kph depending on which one you use. (plus whatever negligible fraction because Speedtweak is a percentage modifier)

... except that humans are better at hitting slower targets, so light mechs will "feel" the 15kph hit more than other weight classes will.

*note: the number 15kph is completely arbitrary and used only as an example.

Quote

1) The opposite. Stock mechs will now be anti-lore with slower speeds to boot.

Stock mechs still get Speedtweak. Stock mechs that are Elited are "anti-lore" currently, since they indeed do go above the lore speed. If a mech goes below lore speed because it doesn't have all the efficiencies unlocked, then what you call that is ... inefficient... because it doesn't have all the efficiencies unlocked.

Again, I'm not trying argue against you, I'm just saying that your argument isn't strong enough to support the points you're trying to make.

Edited by Tarogato, 14 February 2015 - 01:16 PM.

[Burktross]

Tarogato, on 14 February 2015 - 01:11 PM, said:

See my point below.
Isn't that exactly what we have already? No, I'm not supporting Lordred's argument, but your counterargument is flawed.

Right now if you buy a new mech, it's pre-nerfed, as in it does not move as fast as it will when you get speedtweak. Whether you use Speedtweak to add 15kph to the lore speed or you subtract 15kph from lore speed to get Pre-tweak... makes no difference. It's literally the exact same system, +/- 15kph depending on which one you use. (plus whatever negligible fraction because Speedtweak is a percentage modifier)

... except that humans are better at hitting slower targets, so light mechs will "feel" the 15kph hit more than other weight classes will.

*note: the number 15kph is completely arbitrary and used only as an example.

I should have clarified-- nerfed in regards to lore.

[Tarogato]

err woups how delete posts ack help

oh, I found a use for it...

Burktross, on 14 February 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

I should have clarified-- nerfed in regards to lore.

Ninja'd an edit to the above post that should rebut this.

Edited by Tarogato, 14 February 2015 - 01:17 PM.

[Lily from animove]

dunno, would not differ much from basically saying, nerf all engines by 10%.
would be extremely hurting for the fatties tbh. too hurting at all, especially the DWF which can not increase its engine size.

maybe it would be a better thing if the skill would improve speed by 8kph or 10, no matter what tonnage? already fast lights would get something but slow fatties would benefit more from this.

the entire issue with the % buffs is creating an exponential buff which means lights benefit most (like 4x as much as slow assaults do), due to also torso twist being % and dependend on engine size.

Edited by Lily from animove, 14 February 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Burktross, on 14 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

This... does not make sense.
Mastering mechs to get unnerfed?


1) The opposite. Stock mechs will now be anti-lore with slower speeds to boot.
2) There needs to be a lot more room for masc.
3) see number 2
4) This isn't a skill reworking, this just nerfs un-elited mechs needlessly.

64.8 is slow as it is. I don't want to buy 3 mechs just to raise it from 58.

OP, I don't get it. Why are you so insistent on making mechs slower as to make a second thread trying to get it?

1) stock doesn't mean anything about "Pilot skills". A stock mech moves the same as a speed tweaked mech because said stock mech has speed tweak (eg = all my current stock mechs that I've mastered).

In lore most mech pilots can't go to fast as they can't handle the terrain at times (mud, rubble, ice, up hill, etc). While more experienced pilots (Pilot skills!) can go a bit faster and cruise at a higher speed then normal.

2) How so? Besides the Firemoth there isn't that much problem... oh and a 50 kph difference gives A LOT more room then normal.

3) See number 2.

4) but it isn't a nerf.

[Alan Davion]

Nightshade24, on 14 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

In lore most mech pilots can't go to fast as they can't handle the terrain at times (mud, rubble, ice, up hill, etc). While more experienced pilots (Pilot skills!) can go a bit faster and cruise at a higher speed then normal.

There is that, but there's also the fact that, in lore, a mech will heat up simply from moving, and the faster it moves, the more heat it generates... Which we currently do not have because we'd have people overheating and shutting down ten times as often the way heat works in the game.

I'm currently reading "Mercenary's Star", part of the Gray Death Saga, and numerous times it's talked about Grayson 'rapid firing' the right arm laser on his shadow hawk, along with the autocannon.

The way mech combat worked in the books was MUCH more skill based, because the pilot had to avoid overheating at all costs, because if you overheated and shutdown, you were permanently shut down, and that means you were either captured, or your mech made an easy target and lost its head. Along with your life.

Where as in MW:O, it's all meta-builds and alpha strikes with much less concern for heat and shutting down.

A little off topic there, but I think it needed to be said.

There are a lot of changes that need to be made to this game, and in my opinion, speed is rather low on the list, things like autocannon fire and ECM are much higher on the list... ECM currently holding the #1 spot on things that need to be fixed before anything else.