25 replies to this topic

[Matthew Ace]

Recently, as we know, sneak peek of Quirk Pass 2 has been posted and among the hottest topic is how the Thunderbolt 9S has got its quirks toned down (This isnt the place to argue whether its called for, btw.)

Next, recall several heat values (Im aware they had other values as well but it doesnt quite add to making my point) the ER PPC and PPC currently or once used.

ER PPC (prenerf) : 11
ER PPC (postnerf): 15
ER PPC (9S old quirk): 7.5
ER PPC (AWS-9M): 11.25
PPC (prenerf) : 8
PPC (postnerf) : 10
PPC (AWS-8Q) : 7.5

For the ER PPC, one would realise at 7.5, it's easily too spammable while on the opposite spectrum, 15 makes it much too hard to use when pressed to fire at cyclic rate and few uses it unless quirked.

IMO, at AWS-9M's 11.25, it is still a touch too heaty but at a usable stage (I always keep them at chain fire) but we can discuss that. The old heat value of 11 being globally available however contributed to its overuse along with a velocity of 2000.

This suggests that with an adjustment to ER PPC heat without going all the way down to 11, we can find a sweet spot that would appease both general and quirked users without being overbearing.

Consider a few possible values.

ER PPC at 14
With -25% heat: 10.5

ER PPC at 13.5
With -25% heat: 10.125

ER PPC at 13
With -25% heat: 9.75

These 3 values for ER PPC heat all seems reasonable enough to make them that bit more usable and should still be high enough to not be spammed in general.

Clanners? Yes their ER PPC can use the same buffs too.


The PPC, whilst being cool enough, has have other factors that keeps it from more widespread use (0 damage minimum range, not much range as well) but its fine too if they get a heat buff towards 9. I'd say it needs some touch in other areas instead. Slight range boost for example.

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The other alternative, if high heat is ultimately still an absolute necessity, would be unchanged heat, but either 11 or 12 damage with longer cooldown for IS, and redistributing direct/arcing damage to taste for Clans.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 13 February 2015 - 03:01 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

Bump.

[Leopardo]

warning incoming patch - nerf 9s!

[Matthew Ace]

Kind of unbelievable that a normally hot topic (lol pun) would get little to no response.

[Hayato1983]

Gotta agree with this.

[Nori Silverrage]

I wouldn't mind seeing it reduced a small amount. Outside of TDR-9s you really don't see ERPPCs much, heck you don't see PPCs that often either, but that may be beacuse of the minimum range TBH.

[Nik Reaper]

The speed of the ppcs is what limits there use , even as a hot nonspamable weapon they would have a use as peek'a'boo weapon for ridge humping or corner peeking , but they can't reliably hit moving targets near there effective range unless they move linearly and evenly , the ER finds more use as a faster PPC with no min range then it does as a long range sniper weapon...

They introduced this change to limit the pinpoint alpha at 600+ m , but it made the weapon obsolite as there are more options under that range that are better.

So more than reducing heat upping the speed a bit more again might give it more use proven by mechs with ppc travel speed buffs.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 24 February 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[Draykin]

Just going to say, if you reduce the heat of a powerful weapon, people are going to use it more over lasers, which in turn could result in people swapping back to the cover meta, where all you wanted to do was hide and peek. PPCs and their ER counterparts are hot for good reason, in that they don't need to keep on a target like lasers. They just shoot, hit, all of the damage is applied instantly, and so is the heat. As evidence of this, with the Thunderbolt-9S, pre-nerf, had -50% heat generation on the ERPPC. That's taking 15 down to 7.5, making ERPPC boating a no-brainer. You'd just slap three ERPPCs (or more, if you could) onto a 9S and fire off 30 damage alphas whenever you pleased.

I don't see any particular reason to reduce the heat of these weapons. It's a trade-off to make you decide if you want FLPPD for lots of heat and tonnage, or if you want lasers. Also, keep in mind that every 'Mech has certain builds it just doesn't favor. Sure, you can get Lights with ballistic slots, but that doesn't mean you can just slap on an AC/20 and perform as intended (Urbanmech excluded). It's the same with PPCs and ERPPCs. Some 'Mechs can make better use of them than others, and some people prefer lasers over them.

[Nori Silverrage]

While I wouldn't mind the speed being upped a small amount, I've been using two Clan ERPPCs to great effect. Yes you miss at extreme ranges a lot, especially compared to Gauss, but I don't think the speed is bad. It just requires skill to hit things and you will rightly have a tough time hitting really fast lights.

If anything Gauss speed should be reduced...

[Matthew Ace]

As some have raised, raising velocity of all PPCs may be a viable solution as well. I still lean towards a slight heat reduction TBH but I am biased in the sense that I would like it a little better when pressed to fire at cyclic rate but nowhere near old 9S quirks. Maybe an example of what i have in mind would be that with the buff and -25% heat quirk, it should allow the ability to use them in relatively hot maps as effectively as it currently is on normal heat maps.

Something to add: I have yet to elite my 9M so that skewers my bias as well.

[TheArisen]

PPC's biggest problems are hit reg and velocity IMO. They should buff ppc velocity a smidge or two and fix hit reg.

[Idealsuspect]

Matthew Ace, on 13 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

Blablabla plz i would snipe behind my team with unlimited ammo and never take a scratch on my mech paint.....

Matthew Ace, on 13 February 2015 - 02:46 AM, said:

This suggests that with an adjustment to ER PPC heat without going all the way down to 11, we can find a sweet spot that would appease both general and quirked users without being overbearing.

11 heat ? Ok you can use PPC... you don't like PPC ok use neither ....
Anyway you ok for buff PPC heat and nerf PPC cooldown ... i suggest to nerf yourself your cooldown then your heat will follow.

We don't need MWO become again a jump sniping harass game again ty peace.

Edited by Idealsuspect, 25 February 2015 - 05:03 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

Firstly, if you have read the post instead of just jumping to put me down, you would have realised that I do not support 11 heat, 2000-velocity ER PPC.

Beyond that, if you can't contribute constructively without attacking players verbally, then might I suggest that you do not even post in the first place. Reported.

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Finally got my 9M elited and I've to say, first game with 2x effeciency handles significantly better. Will report back after i get a bit more action in it.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 25 February 2015 - 06:48 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

So it's been a month and I have to say, with quirks, ER PPCs are decent after the 9M got elited, although not stellar.

With 14 engine DHS and 6 to 8 external DHS, shooting all 3 ER PPC incurred me about 63-67% heat buildup (depending on the number of sinks), while shooting 2+1 volley allows firing to be a good deal more sustainable as one avoids ghost heat.

As of now, I still stand by my reasoning that ER PPC and PPC could still use the slight heat reduction though it's likely 13 heat for ER PPC would be too good. 14 would probably be the sweet spot. After playing some more, even in a support role, the heat costs way too much in one's effectiveness, so I'm back to my suggestion that the sweet spot would be 13/13.5/14 - maybe while toning down the heat gen quirk on certain mechs very slightly.

Should ghost heat penalty be reduced instead or in conjunction? I don't know.

Being able to fire 3 ER PPC while generating below 60% would be pretty devastating. It's either that or what several others raised, the alternate suggestion of velocity boost (Im still leaning towards lower heat). Testing with a mech unquirked for PPC/ER PPC is probably the next necessary step to come to a solid conclusion.

Trying out the regular PPCs, even on the 8Q, I find that they have too many cons to be worthwhile, chief among it, minimum range. Heat is also a consideration given that despite the quirks, the 8Q just seem to roll better as a wubber.

A major impeding factor in judging PPC balance at mid or long range (or any direct fire weapons for that matter) is bad terrain hitboxes and that probably needs addressing before changing PPCs? Beyond that, perhaps the projectile hitbox could be slightly increased; I've had shots phasing through Zeus and Ryoken (yes, HSR issue, but this would lessen said issue).

Edited by Matthew Ace, 05 April 2015 - 12:40 AM.

[Matthew Ace]

Bump; fight for ER PPC / cER PPC and PPC rights, even if it doesn't mean an adjustment of heat generation.

Again, utmost emphasis on adjustment to make it feel useful instead of marginal, and not an everything-weapon (as had happened with 2000 velocity and 11 heat ERPPC / 8 heat soft minimum range PPC).

Edited by Matthew Ace, 05 April 2015 - 12:38 AM.

[XphR]

It would be good to see PPC damage ramp from zero to full in the zero to eighty range as well.

[Jabilo]

To me all PPCs seem a little too hot and slow on unquirked mechs, but find a mech with good quirks and they are great weapons.

Adjusting the base stats on PPC would require a quirk pass I think to avoid certain mechs being better with these weapons than intended.

[Matthew Ace]

Bump bump bump.

[kosmos1214]

honestly with all the other nerfs i can see colling them down a little it would make them more useable any way

[TheArisen]

When you can see a ppc coming at you and you can step out of the way, its just to slow. Obviously I'm talking about lights/Meds and some heavies.