115 replies to this topic

[canned wolf]

I think this idea is great.
It gives you a choice, do you wait for a full lock (all weapons fully on target) or do you snap off a poorly aimed shot to disrupt them?

You could also do special groups for tag equiped weapons. If you detect a tag lock you could have missles set to autofire, effectively giving scouts the abillity to directly control your weapons.

[Pht]

The number of Reticules should depend on the 'Mech you're piloting. Some have a single joystick and no rear weapons, some have dual joysticks for more control (and thus can use dual reticules quite well), and some have rear weapons (which means you get a reticule in the view for the rear arc weapons).

"Unlocked" reticules would be nice, as long as they don't do something silly like, say, letting right torso weapons fire into the arc directly to the left of the 'Mech.

[Datum]

I like the separate reticles, but it sounds too complicated for fighting. What if you have the arm weapons always track, but there's a second reticle for the torso guns that stays fixed?

[Felicitatem Parco]

Proposal: A target-designation scheme to provide optional auto-tracking.

1.) Keep a fixed reticule in the middle of the HUD at all times that acts as a general-purpose Reticule and Pointer.
2.) Bind a key to the keyboard that acts as a "Target Designator" button, let's call it X.
3.) Line up your sights on a target Mech's bodypart-of-choice and press X (you'll see a virtual target designation mark on the enemy Mech since I assume we'll have holographic HUDs). Now press one of your Firing Group Numbers.
4.) The Weapon(s) you just selected will now auto-track that exact location of the hostile Mech (within their respective firing windows)

If you create an arms-only firing group, then you can auto-synch it with a hostile Mech while simultaneously using your torso-mounted weapons via the center reticule. Maybe you could set aside a second button to bind an additional Target Designator button to auto-track two targets independently, taking advantage of the full reach of your arms (a very wide firing window).

I think the computing power coupled with the bio-feedback technology would exist for this kind of target tracking.

EDIT: Hey, this would be a great ability to dump XP into for Leveling Up. It'd require a good deal of experience to learn how to make those arms fire accurately in auto-synch mode. It would relate to how deeply in-touch your pilot is with the Myomer, how well your body and brain can multi-task, the strength of your neurological fortidu.... anyways, you get the picture.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 26 November 2011 - 09:20 PM.

[Dlardrageth]

Main problem I can see with multiple reticules (no matter if 3, 5 or a dozen) is the vulnerability to lag issues. It could easily lead to a major advantage for the player with a better connection to the server, or the latest glitz in terms of graphic boards. While others would get lagshots galore that go straight to the next moon.

Graphics board one could claim is everybody's own call how much to spend on it. Internet connections and especially packet losses unfortunately is nothing you as an individual have much influence on.

I really would like the option for multiple reticules, as long as it stays optional (Maybe you can, if you want, designate a seperate extra reticule for each weapon group or something?) Then everybody could decide if he wants to risk the performance issues due to using a multiplicity of reticules or rather stay safe with only one.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 26 November 2011 - 09:49 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I'm hoping that the coding will reduce lag. IMO lag in general is going to be a big factor in how they implement things. I have a relatively slow connection and no chance of better any time soon.

[diana]

Well, if I'll go with multiple reticule one then it'll be like this:

Torso and arm mounted weapons are fixed, unless they are turreted, and therefore if multiple weapons on torso\arm are fired, they will hit in the pattern they were set.

Well, rapid fire autocannons and missiles will have their spread, so there'll be some overlap, but laser\ppcs will fire straight and gauss\single shot ACs will have the slightest bit of it.


If, for example, you put a weapon on torso and on the left arm in a single group, they when you'll choose it, the arm will realign and the left arm reticule will merge with torso's.
Realigning will still take some time and torso moves slower than the arms, so the player will have to carefully time his actions if he wants to constantly juggle weapons, or alpha strike, and not fire half of them into the air.
I wish I could find that image that described this better, I forgot what thread has it.

Prosperity Park, on 26 November 2011 - 09:12 PM, said:

Proposal: A target-designation scheme to provide optional auto-tracking.

1.) Keep a fixed reticule in the middle of the HUD at all times that acts as a general-purpose Reticule and Pointer.
2.) Bind a key to the keyboard that acts as a "Target Designator" button, let's call it X.
3.) Line up your sights on a target Mech's bodypart-of-choice and press X (you'll see a virtual target designation mark on the enemy Mech since I assume we'll have holographic HUDs). Now press one of your Firing Group Numbers.
4.) The Weapon(s) you just selected will now auto-track that exact location of the hostile Mech (within their respective firing windows)

If you create an arms-only firing group, then you can auto-synch it with a hostile Mech while simultaneously using your torso-mounted weapons via the center reticule. Maybe you could set aside a second button to bind an additional Target Designator button to auto-track two targets independently, taking advantage of the full reach of your arms (a very wide firing window).

I think the computing power coupled with the bio-feedback technology would exist for this kind of target tracking.

EDIT: Hey, this would be a great ability to dump XP into for Leveling Up. It'd require a good deal of experience to learn how to make those arms fire accurately in auto-synch mode. It would relate to how deeply in-touch your pilot is with the Myomer, how well your body and brain can multi-task, the strength of your neurological fortidu.... anyways, you get the picture.

That's a botter's dream right there. An automated combat system.

Edited by Diana, 27 November 2011 - 04:26 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Diana, on 27 November 2011 - 04:23 AM, said:

That's a botter's dream right there. An automated combat system.

Well, the only other way I can envision allowing players to use their Mech's arms independently from the torso would by with double joysticks and two reticules: the Left joystick x,y-axis controls the arms' reticule, the z-axis controls the Mech's torso pivot; the right joystick x-axis controls leg rotation, the y-axis conrtols the torso attitude (how high/low it points), and z-axis could be used tor looking left or right in the cockpit. The center reticule serves to aim the torso-mounted weapons.

At least setting a target designation system allows you to choose between manually aiming and letting the neurohelmet-biofeedback system use your brain's own multitasking capacity to auto-aim, a nearly useless and fairly inaccurate feature at first until you gain enough experience-hours using it...

Edited by Prosperity Park, 27 November 2011 - 12:14 PM.

[Raeven]

Multiple reticules reminds me of the bad guy in that Stephen Segal movie with the train, when he typed in two differen nuclear arming codes on two different keyboards.

One in a million will actually be able to control multiple reticules. It's too complicated a control scheme to seperate the arms and torsos and legs and rear mounted and head weapons into seperate reticule. Not all at once anyway.

When you are firing in the forward firing arc, everthing links to the same reticule. When you fire in the left firing arc, right side weapons go offline. Same for the left side weapons in the right firing arc. All weapons use the same targetting reticule, whether it's fixed or unlockable.

[vampire seraphin]

Interesting ideas, but a better one may be to have a function that adjusts the convergence range of your weapons. You could code it like a throttle and use a two key or wheel system to control it. I like the idea of two key myself since you could map it to a hat.

Anyways, what this would do is allow you to rapidly adjust the range your weapons are aiming at. Obviously this would effect how wide the shot spreads.

For example think about a Jenner, a mech widely separated arm mounted weapons. If you set your guns to long range but shoot them at a mech at close, range the beams will hit left and right of the reticule allowing you to damage more than one location on an enemy mech. It would also allow you to lead shots to the left or right with weapons mounted in the arms more than with weapons mounted in the torso which would have a tighter spread even at a long convergence.

This type of adjustment would allow some additional control to arm mounted weapons without over complicating things. Alternately, you could use the MW3 system with a floating reticule and look left/look right commands that only allow you to use the guns mounted in the corresponding arm.

Either way, if you have a floating reticule you need to have a toggle so that those who want it can use it and those who prefer a fixed reticule can lock it in place.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Free reticule (ala mw3) with actual aim point indicated on a per weapon basis. You move the reticule and you see the swarm of weapons trying to keep up with it based on their on individual tracking speed (bases on weapon type, mount type, etc) In cycle fire the current one will be highlighted. Group fire all the weapons in the group will highlight. Weapons shoot where they are aimed at time of trigger, even if they haven't caught up to the reticule.

[Felicitatem Parco]

The Armored Core series of games gave arms a unique "speed" rating that determined how fast they could line up their weapons with the indicated targeting location, and accuracy for how well the arms actually delivered rounds onto their target; the weapons themselves had an inherent accuracy-rating, as well. The game was based on auto-targeting the torso of any Mech you approached because there were no bodypart delineations drawn (any damage just chipped away at your total "health") and the manual control options they gave were terrible... you could never hit anything because the controls were so awful.

Mechwarrior games have been based strictly on a manual-control option, and I think there are variables that should affect manual accuracy. I feel that, in all the previous Mechwarrioir games, your weapons were pretty much 100% accurate. Should this be the case for an experience-driven Mech Game? I don't think so.

Here's an idea that might work with a single joystick: Keep a dedicated center reticule, like MW4, that serves your torso weapons and any arm('s) weapons that *are not* in the currently selected firing group; This reticule is always there, in the center. Now you can free up the arms a little... Any arm('s) weapons that *are* in the currently-selected firing group will be directed to fire at a new, secondary reticule - a reticule that advances slightly faster than the torso-rotation rate of the Mech [in both the x- and y-axis]. This allows you to sweep the reticule across the screen because arms have articulation, whereas torsos do not. If you chose to have both arms' weapons synched with torso weapons, then this reticule goes away. If both arms' weapons are synched together, then any arm that exits its own firing arc simply won't fire its weapons during that volley and the secondary reticule can tell us that (by color, or something).

Furthermore, each Mech would have its own arm firing arc, arm movement speed, and inherent arm accuracy based on it's mechanical design! And, and, and..., separate from the engineering limitations of the Mech, your pilot will also have to Level Up his own ability to direct arm weapons quickly and accurately! Eh? Eh? Like it? I do.

[UncleKulikov]

Having 3 default weapon groups (one for each arm and one for the torso) is what I would like to start out with. When all groups are selected, there is one reticle that you can move around and when a weapon can't track to where you are aiming, it greys out on the HUD.

If you select all the weapons on a single arm, it would adjust the reticle (perhaps a different color as well) to show which arm was targeting, and the same rules apply (if you track the reticle too far for a weapon to shoot, it greys out on the HUD).

Adding more weapon groups could be done manually, and would follow the same rules.

This is how things worked in Starsiege, and I really liked it.

[CyBerkut]

TheRulesLawyer, on 28 November 2011 - 11:54 AM, said:

Free reticule (ala mw3) with actual aim point indicated on a per weapon basis. You move the reticule and you see the swarm of weapons trying to keep up with it based on their on individual tracking speed (bases on weapon type, mount type, etc) In cycle fire the current one will be highlighted. Group fire all the weapons in the group will highlight. Weapons shoot where they are aimed at time of trigger, even if they haven't caught up to the reticule.

+1 This. At least as the default offering, if any other complex options are offered as well. While visually busy, it is actually a simple aiming method, but one that can yield better results for the pilot who manages the timing of their triggering well. Patience to wait for the desired weapon(s) actual point of aim to converge upon the reticule, and the mental gymnastics of properly keeping track of the various weapon cycle rates / heat load / ammo will be rewarded.

Depending on what they give us for views and controls, the side look with an aiming point (that the applicable arm's mounted weapons come to bear upon) could be good to add in to the mix.

[Darion Rothgarr]

Single Targeting REcticule is sufficent since it will be non specific to where where damage is allocated to the enemy. Let the computer make the adjustments accordingly.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Darion Rothgarr, on 01 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

Single Targeting REcticule is sufficent since it will be non specific to where where damage is allocated to the enemy. Let the computer make the adjustments accordingly.

So, you're suggesting that we should adopt TT rules and force a Mech's weapons to be automatically guided by auto-aim when firing upon a target lined up in your reticule, and all shots will be directed to the center or frontal-mass? Why not make MWO turn-based as well? That would adhere to TT rules very nicely.

Many video game shooters have an auto-aim function that directs stray shots toward the torso-ish area of your target, but they still allow you to line up your sights on someone's head and pop'em. I'm gonna be frank and non-diplomatic here: If Mechwarrior Online won't allow me to aim my weapons, then I won't play it.




(feel free to wish me Good Riddance)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 December 2011 - 10:56 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

To be accurate you don't aim your weapons. You put a target designator (reticule) over the target and the Mechs targeting computer attempts to line the weapons up for when you fire.

[Pht]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 02 December 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

To be accurate you don't aim your weapons. You put a target designator (reticule) over the target and the Mechs targeting computer attempts to line the weapons up for when you fire.

And to be more accurate your 'mech doesn't than track that target with the reticule or in any other manner - the pilot has to keep on designating what to aim at for his 'mech - there is no "designate and forget."

[Thorqemada]

I liked the MW3 targetting - to me, MW is already a game, that has a complexity, that is much above the usuall action combat game and i would not atach more complication to it initially.
So one targetting reticule and maybe extra targetting for guided missiles and that is it.
Why not give the decision into the hands of the Pilot, let him customize the targetting method, having it preset to the easier way.

[Barsov]

Seriously… I prefer AUTOaiming method.
Got clear LOS to object, lock it as a target, and then choose the weapon to hit the target that being locked. Electronics will make all job, mechwarrior just need to keep the target in the correct weapon ark, hold the distance and spam the weapon groups buttons. Off cause you cannot hit locations you want. To do that you need to have a Targeting Computer . You want aim more then one target per time? No problem! Go and buy a Multi Tracking targeting system and install it on your Mech (good for fire support LRM armed units) for example.

With all respect previous MWs games aiming and targeting system was bull***t. Manual aiming by using mouse axes and joystick it’s for FPS. In my opinion to allow such manual aiming only when Mech’s targeting and tracking system was destroyed during the combat. In that case manual aiming going to be really difficult. You must at last slow down or even stop your Mech to do that.

Edited by Barsov, 08 December 2011 - 03:02 AM.