44 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

dryestwall, on 03 July 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

I think MWO is trying to stay away from the poptart combat of MW4. But a mech game without it would just feel wrong.

As it happens, none of the canonically-available variants of the Black Knight (the BL-6-KNT, BL-6b-KNT, BL-7-KNT, and BL-7-KNT-L) have Jump Jets.
And with the Devs stating that only variant-chassis that started with Jump Jets equipped would have access to them, there would be no jump-capable Black Knights.

So, the Black Knight would pose no risk of poptarting.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Strum Wealh, on 08 July 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

As it happens, none of the canonically-available variants of the Black Knight (the BL-6-KNT, BL-6b-KNT, BL-7-KNT, and BL-7-KNT-L) have Jump Jets.
And with the Devs stating that only variant-chassis that started with Jump Jets equipped would have access to them, there would be no jump-capable Black Knights.

So, the Black Knight would pose no risk of poptarting.

Your argument has a bit of limited validity lore wise. Read Flashpoint for evidence of my point in the lore. If they can successfully put jump jets on a Cestus, they can put them on a Black Knight even if it was never done in the lore. If they ever get us to 3058 we should see proper omnis that will also invalidate that argument. Personally I think adding jump jets to a chasis that didn't have a lore supported factory or field modification kit variant should be expensive C-bill wise. As for MW4, it was and still is a fun game, but suffered from some epic fail when it came to how weapons and gear were mounted and implementation of omnitech.

As for the original topic of the where is the Black Knight. I wouldn't mind seen it in the starting line up on release. Just like there are many other mechs I'd like to see. The Zues, Dervish and Enforcer for starters. We won't go into the stuff we'll probably never see like the Axman and the Hatchetman.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 08 July 2012 - 04:09 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Nathan Foxbane, on 08 July 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Your argument has a bit of limited validity lore wise. Read Flashpoint for evidence of my point in the lore. If they can successfully put jump jets on a Cestus, they can put them on a Black Knight even if it was never done in the lore. If they ever get us to 3058 we should see proper omnis that will also invalidate that argument. Personally I think adding jump jets to a chasis that didn't have a lore supported factory or field modification kit variant should be expensive C-bill wise. As for MW4, it was and still is a fun game, but suffered from some epic fail when it came to how weapons and gear were mounted and implementation of omnitech.

As for the original topic of the where is the Black Knight. I wouldn't mind seen it in the starting line up on release. Just like there are many other mechs I'd like to see. The Zues, Dervish and Enforcer for starters. We won't go into the stuff we'll probably never see like the Axman and the Hatchetman.

Well, I did find the excerpt from Flashpoint describing one Corporal Richard Smith's modified, jump-capble Cestus.
However, it is still a one-off custom 'Mech, rather than a production variant - much like the infamous "Yen-lo-Wang".

The Dev statement I cited came from Q&A 06:

Quote

For mounting equipment (such as AMS, BAP, ECM), will we be able to place it anywhere there is critical space, as the devblog indicates heat sinks can be placed, or will those items have hardpoint limitations as well? –Solis Obscuri

[DAVID] For the most part, you’ll be able to place non-weapon equipment anywhere, subject to critical slot and tonnage restrictions. Though there are some restrictions. Some are derived from the tabletop rules, like CASE being allowed only in the torso locations, while others are specific to our game, like jump jets being allowed only on variants and locations that include jump jets by default.

Of particular note is the last section of David Bradley's answer to Solis' question.

So, even if it was done as a one-off in one of the novels, it looks like the Devs are not going to allow us as MWO players to have that same level of customization for normal BattleMechs for certain pieces of equipment (including, most notably, Jump Jets and CASE).
What they seem to be saying is that if one wants a jump-capable variant of 'Mech "X", then one must purchase that specific variant of 'Mech "X", and that if no purchasable variant comes with Jump Jets, then no variant of that 'Mech will ever mount Jump Jets.

For example, if one wants a jump-capable Atlas, then one must purchase an AS7-K3 (which isn't canonically available until 3083); one would never be able to put Jump Jets on the AS7-D (the "standard"/"default" Atlas) since it doesn't "come from the factory" with them (or, presumably, the structural reinforcements to mount them).

Pod-mounting Jump Jets on OmniMechs, however, is technically a different matter.
Though, I would be only mildly surprised if the Devs implemented similar Jump Jet restrictions for OmniMechs as well.
(Also, the bit about the Black Knight having OmniTech in it is exclusive to MW4, and is completely untrue from a canon/lore standpoint.)

That being said, I would like to see the Black Knight as well (though, I might have to go with the normal BL-6-KNT rather than the Marik variant.).
Perhaps it is planned, and the Devs simply aren't going to announce all of the in-at-launch 'Mechs prior to release?
One can hope, right?

[Nekki Basara]

I'd love to see the old derpy Black Knight in the game. It's got a weird charm to it that the MW4 redesign just lacks entirely.

Strum Wealh, on 08 July 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

one-off custom 'Mech, rather than a production variant - much like the infamous "Yen-lo-Wang".

IIRC the Centurion CN9-YLW is the production copy of Yen Lo Wang.

[DarkendMoon]

I dont' think the Black Knight was around at this point in the timeline was it? They might consider adding it when we get to that point after the clan wars.

Sorry I just looked it up some of the older models were around before that deal.

Edited by DarkendMoon, 09 July 2012 - 03:55 AM.

[Bombast]

Nekki Basara, on 08 July 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

I'd love to see the old derpy Black Knight in the game. It's got a weird charm to it that the MW4 redesign just lacks entirely.

IIRC the Centurion CN9-YLW is the production copy of Yen Lo Wang.

No it isn't. Its a Centurion with an AC/20 and a Hatchet. And according to Sarna.net, its a modification, not a production model. It also doesn't seem to be in a TRO, rendering it's canon status questionable.

As for the Black Knight itself... ich. Why waste a heavy mech slot on such a bland mech. Give me a Grasshopper! Now THAT'S an interesting design.

[Strum Wealh]

Nekki Basara, on 08 July 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

IIRC the Centurion CN9-YLW is the production copy of Yen Lo Wang.

"Yen-Lo-Wang was a famous ArenaMech in the Solaris Games. Originally a CN9-A that underwent a series of modifications to a variety of customized configurations over time, it was occasionally reported as the "CN9-YLW" but this is explicitly not considered to be a proper variant. The CN9-YLW designation is associated with one particular modification that drops the LRM to upgrade the autocannon to an Autocannon/20 with three tons of ammunition and add a Hatchet to the left arm."

[Mick Mars]

I will give a couple reasons to have this mech ingame(sorry for mw4 mech, but it's all I have)



Most 100 ton assaults that can't mount that loadout. That's a decent hit at med/long range and a monster hit at close range. I knocked an Atlas down with this loadout.

[Bombast]

Mick Mars, on 09 July 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

I will give a couple reasons to have this mech ingame(sorry for mw4 mech, but it's all I have)



Most 100 ton assaults that can't mount that loadout. That's a decent hit at med/long range and a monster hit at close range. I knocked an Atlas down with this loadout.

Illegal loadout. The Black Knight cannot mount ACs in this game (Because it never did cannon wise).

EDIT: Get it? Cannon wise? I crack myself up.

Edited by Bombast, 09 July 2012 - 04:51 AM.

[Reoh]

DarkendMoon, on 09 July 2012 - 03:52 AM, said:

I dont' think the Black Knight was around at this point in the timeline was it? They might consider adding it when we get to that point after the clan wars.

Sorry I just looked it up some of the older models were around before that deal.

The Black Knight was first fielded in 2578.

Bombast, on 09 July 2012 - 04:50 AM, said:

Illegal loadout. The Black Knight cannot mount ACs in this game (Because it never did cannon wise).

EDIT: Get it? Cannon wise? I crack myself up.

Very punny dude.

[Strum Wealh]

Mick Mars, on 09 July 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

I will give a couple reasons to have this mech ingame(sorry for mw4 mech, but it's all I have)



Most 100 ton assaults that can't mount that loadout. That's a decent hit at med/long range and a monster hit at close range. I knocked an Atlas down with this loadout.

As all variants of the Black Knight are canonically all-energy 'Mechs, there is a good chance that such a variation could not be constructed in MWO, either.

Also, consider that each IS LB 20-X AC (which isn't available until 3058) takes up 11 criticals, so even if there are ballistics hardpoints, they wouldn't fit in the Black Knight's arms (unless one can remove the hands, lower arm actuators, and upper arm actuators).

The Devs haven't revealed how, or even if, Clan tech could or would be made available to IS players.
And Clan LB 20-X ACs take up 9 criticals, so even they would only fit in the arms if one can remove the hand actuators.

Also, some number of those six Double Heat Sinks would also consume a number of critical spaces (at 3 criticals per IS DHS, or two for Clan DHS), as would that ECM unit (2 criticals), as would the ammunition for those ACs (1 critical per five shots), as would that Ferro-Fibrous Armor (14 criticals for the IS version, or 7 for the Clan version).

And the ER Large Lasers (both IS and Clan) still consume two criticals each.

And if you mount a big enough engine to take care of the DHS criticals, you don't have the weight or the criticals to do the rest.

-----

I just tried it in REMLAB; it can be approximated if and only if the 'Mech is 100% Clan tech, with Clan Endo-Steel, full Clan FF armor, and a Clan 300XL Engine (for a top speed of 64.8 kph), four additional Clan DHS (12 integrated into the engine, two consuming 2 criticals apiece), removing the hand actuators, using Clan ECM, and adding 6 tons of ammunition (for a total of 30 shots between the cannons, or 15 two-cannon salvos - about half of what MW4's ammo allocations allow).
The ACs fill the arms, the two DHSs fill the legs, theECM unit fills the head, and each side-torso gets a ERLL and three tons of AC ammo.
The ES and FF criticals fill the center-torso and the remaining spaces in the side-torsos (6 each).
I completely ran out of criticals and had 0.5 tons left over.

Still, from what we know now, the build would be impossible for a Black Knight in MWO.

[Nekki Basara]

Bombast, on 09 July 2012 - 04:20 AM, said:

No it isn't. Its a Centurion with an AC/20 and a Hatchet. And according to Sarna.net, its a modification, not a production model. It also doesn't seem to be in a TRO, rendering it's canon status questionable.

Never trust Sarna. If you haven't learned why yet then... well, let's just say you don't want to know that much about a certain infantrywoman. It's in RS 3039U, so it's canon.

Also the original mech didn't have a hatchet until the Dark Age when Kai came back from the dead to give it to his niece.

Strum Wealh, on 09 July 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

"Yen-Lo-Wang was a famous ArenaMech in the Solaris Games. Originally a CN9-A that underwent a series of modifications to a variety of customized configurations over time, it was occasionally reported as the "CN9-YLW" but this is explicitly not considered to be a proper variant. The CN9-YLW designation is associated with one particular modification that drops the LRM to upgrade the autocannon to an Autocannon/20 with three tons of ammunition and add a Hatchet to the left arm."

Nice job quoting a thread from two years ago with an unofficial response from a freelancer saying "sure, they can call it whatever they want" and then contradicting himself later.

Strum Wealh, on 09 July 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

Also, consider that each IS LB 20-X AC (which isn't available until 3058) takes up 11 criticals, so even if there are ballistics hardpoints, they wouldn't fit in the Black Knight's arms (unless one can remove the hands, lower arm actuators, and upper arm actuators).

20-class ACs and the like can be split between two adjacent locations if necessary. See the King Crab KGC-000 for example.

Strum Wealh, on 09 July 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

And the ER Large Lasers (both IS and Clan) still consume two criticals each.

Clan ER Larges take one only.

Strum Wealh, on 09 July 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

I just tried it in REMLAB; it can be approximated if and only if the 'Mech is 100% Clan tech, with Clan Endo-Steel, full Clan FF armor, and a Clan 300XL Engine (for a top speed of 64.8 kph), four additional Clan DHS (12 integrated into the engine, two consuming 2 criticals apiece), removing the hand actuators, using Clan ECM, and adding 6 tons of ammunition (for a total of 30 shots between the cannons, or 15 two-cannon salvos - about half of what MW4's ammo allocations allow).
The ACs fill the arms, the two DHSs fill the legs, theECM unit fills the head, and each side-torso gets a ERLL and three tons of AC ammo.
The ES and FF criticals fill the center-torso and the remaining spaces in the side-torsos (6 each).
I completely ran out of criticals and had 0.5 tons left over.

Still, from what we know now, the build would be impossible for a Black Knight in MWO.

You're putting a silly amount of ammo in there. MW4 let you have so much simply because they increased the armour to silly levels. It can be done with IS Endo Steel alone as an upgrade from the BL-6-KNT but ends up only having one ton of ammo and not being able to fire everything at once all day. Alternatively you can stick an XL engine in there and get room for 4t of ammo but you end up with an underweight mech. It's a silly design without pure Clantech, and even then it's not all that great.

[Mick Mars]

Well, it works nice in MW4, and kicks *** in Solaris. I just wonder if the MWO mechs are closer to BT canon or MW3 or 4

[Jimmy the Tulip]

If they're going to introduce a 75 ton Mech to the game at the start I know which one I want it to be....

[Bombast]

Mick Mars, on 09 July 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Well, it works nice in MW4, and kicks *** in Solaris. I just wonder if the MWO mechs are closer to BT canon or MW3 or 4

Battletech canon. MW:O is starting from the source material.

[Hardcover]

Nekki Basara, on 09 July 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Never trust Sarna. If you haven't learned why yet then... well, let's just say you don't want to know that much about a certain infantrywoman. It's in RS 3039U, so it's canon.

Okay, I'll bite. Why would something from RS 3039U suddenly render Sarna completely unreliable?

[Strum Wealh]

Nekki Basara, on 09 July 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Nice job quoting a thread from two years ago with an unofficial response from a freelancer saying "sure, they can call it whatever they want" and then contradicting himself later.

The second and eighth posts in the thread, from user "GhostBear"(Ben H. Rome, at the time serving as the Assistant Line Developer at Catalyst Game Labs) are the relevant replies, and he states that
1.) the -YLW designation applies to Yen-Lo-Wang exclusively,
2.) Yen-Lo-Wang "is indeed a unique 'Mech. One-of-a-kind custom, not a production model", and
3.) the -YLW designation predates the current system of appending the pilot's name after the normal designation (e.g. the "ZEU-9WD Zeus-X Stacy" as Stacy Church's one-off custom variant vs the 'normal' "ZEU-9WD Zeus-X"; under the current system, Yen-Lo-Wang's original unique designation would have been something like "CN9-A Centurion Justin").

Nekki Basara, on 09 July 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

20-class ACs and the like can be split between two adjacent locations if necessary. See the King Crab KGC-000 for example.

Indeed, they can. However, that then restricts them to firing only into the forward arc (Total Warfare, pg. 106).
So, such a 'Mech wouldn't be able to swing its arms out to fire at targets in the side-arcs, and would be highly vulnerable to flanking actions.

Nekki Basara, on 09 July 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Clan ER Larges take one only.

Indeed, they do.

Nekki Basara, on 09 July 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

You're putting a silly amount of ammo in there. MW4 let you have so much simply because they increased the armour to silly levels. It can be done with IS Endo Steel alone as an upgrade from the BL-6-KNT but ends up only having one ton of ammo and not being able to fire everything at once all day. Alternatively you can stick an XL engine in there and get room for 4t of ammo but you end up with an underweight mech. It's a silly design without pure Clantech, and even then it's not all that great.

The BL-6-KNT's default weapons load (one PPC, two Large Lasers, four Medium Lasers, and one Small Laser) comes to a total of 21.5 tons (with the exchange of the (IS) BAP for a G-ECM suite being even in terms of both tonnage and criticals).

The proposed weapons load (two Clan ER Large Lasers and two Clan LB 20-X ACs (plus one ton of ammo shared between both ACs)) comes to a total of 33 tons. The IS-tech equivalent comes to a total of 39 tons.

Switching the Heat Sinks to DHS and going from twenty to sixteen (the six added, plus the ten that come with the engine) only frees up four tons (for a total of 25.5 tons free for weapons).

The BL-6-KNT has no Jump Jets to remove, average/"normal" speed for an IS heavy 'Mech, and still needs another 7.5 tons free for the proposed Clan-tech weapons load (or, alternatively, another 13.5 tons for the IS-tech equivalent).

Even removing the remaining Heat Sinks still leaves one 1.5 tons shy of what's needed for the Clan weapons (or, alternatively, 7.5 tons shy for the IS weapons), so one is probably cutting into armor - and reducing overall survivability - to free up the remaining tonnage.
Alternatively (or additionally), one can replace the 300Std engine with a 300XL engine, freeing up 9.5 tons at the cost of the BattleMech's overall survivability.

So, it could be done in the TT, but it would (IMO) take quite a bit out of the 'Mech to make it viable for only a relatively brief period (due to low ammo counts for what are arguably its primary weapons).
On top of that, it might not be possible in MWO due to hardpoint type and number restrictions (since all of the currently-listed canon Black Knight variants are all-energy 'Mechs, so there is a good chance that MWO Black Knights could be implemented as energy-weapon-only 'Mechs).

[Sychodemus]

There is nothing wrong with sarna.net provided that you understand that there may be some errors or gaps in the information (and some horrid grammar.)

When in doubt about availability of 'Mechs, cross-reference with http://www.masterunitlist.info ; if that says a design is unique, then it is.

[Kael Tropheus]

I prefer the Star League era art, the MW4 version looks like an ugly Crusader mech. Um they are not exactly common in the IS in this time period, someone might open a new factory at some point using the Helm Core info, but last I read, the only ones left are the ones that remain running from the Star League which isnt many. Might as well have a Flashman or a Thug, about the same numbers still up and moving. While I like the original artwork of them and wouldnt mind seeing one of those at some point, for now there are dozens of current mechs that still need to get in the game.

[Paladyne]

http://www.solaris7....nfo.asp?ID=1050

Kael Tropheus, on 10 July 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I prefer the Star League era art, the MW4 version looks like an ugly Crusader mech. Um they are not exactly common in the IS in this time period, someone might open a new factory at some point using the Helm Core info, but last I read, the only ones left are the ones that remain running from the Star League which isnt many. Might as well have a Flashman or a Thug, about the same numbers still up and moving. While I like the original artwork of them and wouldnt mind seeing one of those at some point, for now there are dozens of current mechs that still need to get in the game.

Kong Interstellar re-engineered it and put it back into production as the BL-7-KNT after the first sucession war.

from that point on they have never been able to meet demand with produtcion.

BL-9-KNT is too new for our time period at the moment. but the BL6 and BL7 would have been very common.