189 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Necromantion, on 19 February 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

If your reading comprehension is this poor I don't know what to tell you.

Nowhere do I try to make anyone play the game "my way", I am saying the game is being balanced around being an FPS not an RPG, which PGI has even stated themselves that lore/cannon will not always fit in with this game as it is a online multiplayer FPS not a single player RPG with a multiplayer mode. And in light of that the people who are moaning and complaining about things they dont like then are only able to justify their quams or potential solutions saying "well this is how it worked in TT or the books" is an utterly irrelevant justification because this is not a turn based RPG and to keep the game balanced and fun in the FPS environment certain things just wont translate.

Frankly I am tired of hearing "Merc's shouldnt/should do this or that because lore or tt had this or that rule" because do you think that PGI hasnt implemented the rewards for faction grinding and contract bonuses that change but didnt expect mercs and even other units to jump around? I know PGI is a bit nearsighted in some of their development but they arent that stupid to not do that intentionally.

So it is PGI's way, not my way.

Is that that difficult to comprehend? You may want to reread the posts that I made on this thread that were not replies to individuals trolling and trying to derail the thread.



Bang on, A+ in reading comprehension.

PGI also said that where ever they can they will stick to lore. So those of us who like things to be Canon, want teh game to be more like the Lore.

Now PGI will make things that are not Lore accurate (Lasers being Hitscan for instance) Some will like it (me for instance) and others won't. Those that don't like it can complain all they want. Because its the games forum and they are allowed to disagree with what they don't like.

There is no reason for them to stop pushing to get a more Lore accurate game. Its Up to PGI to decide how accurate to canon the game will be.

Those who want it to be something different than you can say what they want as often as they want, and you posting your opinion will not stop that.

Also...

Last line of Text is all teh folks need to continue to say "Lore"

in Star Trek games the federation uses Phasers not Disruptors. So if the DEVs decided to change that, well I would understand there being a element of consternation, cause that isn't how Star Trek is written.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 February 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[Necromantion]

Joseph Mallan, on 20 February 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

PGI also said that where ever they can they will stick to lore. So those of us who like things to be Canon, want teh game to be more like the Lore.

Now PGI will make things that are not Lore accurate (Lasers being Hitscan for instance) Some will like it (me for instance) and others won't. Those that don't like it can complain all they want. Because its the games forum and they are allowed to disagree with what they don't like.

There is no reason for them to stop pushing to get a more Lore accurate game. Its Up to PGI to decide how accurate to canon the game will be.

Those who want it to be something different than you can say what they want as often as they want, and you posting your opinion will not stop that.

Also...

Last line of Text is all teh folks need to continue to say "Lore"

in Star Trek games the federation uses Phasers not Disruptors. So if the DEVs decided to change that, well I would understand there being a element of consternation, cause that isn't how Star Trek is written.

You seriously are totally incapable of comprehending plain English aren't you?

I said that people need to realize that lore WONT ALWAYS translate well into a balanced FPS game.

I did not say lore WONT.

WONT is not the same as WONT ALWAYS.

Go away or learn to read.

Edited by Necromantion, 20 February 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[krash27]

Necromantion, on 20 February 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

You seriously are totally incapable of comprehending plain English aren't you?

I said that people need to realize that lore WONT ALWAYS translate well into a balanced FPS game.

I did not say lore WONT.

WONT is not the same as WONT ALWAYS.

Go away or learn to read.

Maybe THEY DO UNDERSTAND.
They just don't care and they want it based on lore.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? Because if you did you wouldn't be going on and on because you would realize how futile it is.

Edited by krash27, 20 February 2015 - 08:02 AM.

[Necromantion]

krash27, on 20 February 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Maybe THEY DO UNDERSTAND.
They just don't care and they want it based on lore.
Why is that so hard for you to understand? Because if you did you wouldn't be going on and on because you would realize how futile it is.

First im accused of apparently telling him/others how to play, which i did nowhere in the thread. Then he goes on to say the exact same thing that I have been saying this whole time as if he is bringing something new to the table.

From the freaking get go I have reiterated repeatedly that:

PGI HAS SAID NUMEROUS TIMES THAT LORE WILL NOT ALWAYS BE ABLE TO BE IMPLEMENTED IN A BENEFICIAL WAY TO A BALANCED GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE

And that people should realize that.

[RedDevil]

I think I'm going to stop reading this thread. It's turned into a yelling, angst filled thread, and rather depressing. Maybe a cool-off period is needed before congenial conversation could be had again.

Edited by reddevil, 20 February 2015 - 08:27 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Well, experience points are clearly an RPG element, so...

[Necromantion]

It is downright stunning that people are so dense that me stating that PGI has made their stance known many times that they wont and cant always implement things from lore into the game somehow gets people so bent.

Or that people think that because the game is based on lore that that somehow changes the fact that it is an FPS game first and foremost.

Is pointing out that lore is not always a viable solution to a lot of the issues that are being seen in CW that most people are griping about such a illogical deduction on my part? I think not.

[krash27]

As stated earlier in the post, you are right, everyone else is wrong. You win the interwebs.
No reasoning with unreasonable people, I also am done here, nothing constructive here.

[JadeTimberwolf]

For starters there are many posts I skipped over due to their apparent unnecessary points to the thread

Necromantion, on 18 February 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

NEWS FLASH:
This is an FPS game, not an RPG.

*post snipped for space purposes*

There has been 1 primary 'canon' point I always try to make for people when complaints are made is that if the Clans are OP that is exactly what they should be as that is canon for all incarnations of the CBT universe, including M$ horrid MechAssault. My counterpoint to their pointing out that this isn't TT is "That's why there are Quirks" what this means is that all balancing made in this game between Clan/IS should be done in the Quirks component of the game not the Tech component because from what I have seen the tech has been translated well from TT to FPS modes. Now I love canon, I love trying to follow canon however as an MMO let alone a FPS based MMO canon isn't exactly the easiest to follow.

On a side note I would love to see more story immersion in this game but I am not expecting that any time soon, in fact I expect when we get that story immersion we will see a map reset for CW and honestly I would love to see longer attack windows with a hidden ceasefire so that there are no last minute attackers rushing a planet.

Repasy, on 18 February 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

Incidentally, if they develop further on some of the original promises they made with CW we actually COULD see new ways for playing the game. They originally promised things such as:

• Unit Logistics (organizing mechs/equipment used for an assault, transit time, etc.)
  
• Player-Created Contracts/Bounties (get even with players for picking on you, hehehe...)
  
• Faction Economics (faction-specific availability/sales on weapons, equipment, mechs, etc.)
  
• Contract Restrictions (restricted to individual planet contracts, individual attack lanes, etc.)
  
• Loyalist Voting for Warfronts (get to vote which planet to attack next.)
  
• Planet Economics (planets actually MEAN SOMETHING; give C-bill bonus, equipment availability for faction, etc.)

If features like this get added to the game there would be a whole new dynamic other than straight-up FPS grinding. I wouldn't necessarily call it a new "game mode" but it would finally encompass more RP and Lore while in-game.



The bottom line is that RP and Lore do not have to be connected, this isn't gonna play out at all like Operation Revival... BUT they are important. Lore helps inspire the devs with new content, and RP is what inspires player-created treaties and coordinated assaults. The above features would further both RP and Lore in the game. So, while some people might say that RP is a waste of time, I think the devs are paying attention to AND considering implementing more and more RP/Lore features into the game. People should keep that in mind before discounting RP and alienating the people who came to play the "smart-person's shooter".

Don't freaking criticize people for trying to play the game how it was envisioned before all of the supporting features are implemented. If you don't want to deal with smart people trying to juice out as much as they can from the game/forums to sate their battletech appetite, go back to all the dumb people playing COD...

If this was JUST an fps they would not have bothered with Community Warfare. I can't think of any other fps game that offers what CW does.

Repasy: some of the points you have here go along with a suggest thread I started. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on these subjects and how you think they work with the thread I started. here is a link for that thread http://mwomercs.com/...tack-algorithm/

Edited by JadeTimberwolf, 20 February 2015 - 09:03 AM.

[Necromantion]

Great post JadeTimber, I have tried to get mods to clean up the trolling from page 1-2 but no response yet.

I have a report to get out then a meeting to go to but when I am back ill have a look at your suggestion thread too as I have some ideas that I have been spitballing for which I was going to make a concise and organized post on the suggestion forums with this weekend.

o7

Oh, they also hinted at that they are going to potentially work on more PVE content after 2015 in the townhall last night

[JadeTimberwolf]

I know I was logged into the twitch stream for that. granted my kids were being loud too so I didn't clearly hear everything.

[Repasy Cooper]

That's interesting. I remember hearing quite a while back that they would like to eventually develop a separate single-player campaign game.

I'd love to see some tanks, aerofighters, VTOLs, BA/infantry while playing CW.

What if they had separate consumable modules that let you decide the support units you bring to the battlefield? You could choose to bring a point of LRM infantry, or a support tank, or a pair of VTOLs.

[Tim East]

Necromantion, on 18 February 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

NEWS FLASH:
This is an FPS game, not an RPG.
...
This is not an RPG.

I'm pretty sure it at a minimum has RPG elements, what with the gaining of experience points and progression and all that. I'd call it an RPG, especially given the number of people who play roles of one sort or another in it, and the use of the term "role warfare" alongside the aforementioned progression.

With all that said though, I think what you are talking about is one of the best things about this game AS AN RPG. I love the idea of an alternate canon, where after the start of the clan invasion the players forge their own destiny as mechwarriors and write the future of THIS canon. RPG =\= linear. In fact, in the western world, it is far more common to see fps games take a linear stance toward storytelling than rpgs.

I get why you want to call it an fps, because partially it IS one. You could also elect to label it a third person shooter if you wanted, since that is a function that does exist here. Ignoring the rpg factors involved in the game to do so is going to become less and less viable as community warfare develops into a full-fledged mode that I feel will inevitably supplant the quick and easy team deathmatches of yore.

Necromantion, on 18 February 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

The way things are currently set up does not have enough incentive to be loyalists indeed, especially with things capping out at level 20 rewards and the fact that you can swap to a new faction and start the grind for all kinds of nice goodies like MC/Cockpit items/Cbills/Mechbays/GXP and the like.

Did you ever think that that is perhaps what PGI wanted? Maybe because its an FPS game and not an RPG?

I don't know that this is necessarily true. I elected to take a permanent contract with Jade Falcon, and have no regrets over that decision, since I'm not in CW for the shinies, I'm in it because I liked the stories. I really enjoy the idea of the freeborn warrior making do with second-line weapons and fighting in the grittiest, most worthless, hopeless, battles imaginable. It's why I mostly drive IS mechs outside of CW, and I don't drive anything heavier than a Stormcrow in CW.

I think you underestimate the necessity of retaining some truth to lore to retain some of the player base. For instance, I don't like Armored Core; I likely wouldn't play MWO if it became just a Battletech skin on a CoD clone fps. I'm essentially paying money for a fusion of nostalgia and a solid game, and attaining one at the expense of the other would only lead me (and I suspect many others given the popularity of the urbanmech as an easy example) to lose interest.

[Apnu]

The game is popular because of history and lore. Its that history and lore that enticed Russ and Bryan to get the IP from Microsoft and make this game. We have it because of Battletech history and lore.

Many of the founders were old time players both of the table top, pen and paper RPG, and the video games. PGI would never have made it out of Closed Beta without those players. That deserves respect.

Plus lore gives great filler and depth to a game. Otherwise, why play it? There are plenty of stompy-robot titles out there, there are plenty of minimal-lore FPS games.

Lore is what makes this game unique and stand out amongst other titles.

Lore should have a place at the table, it should dominate the table, but it deserves a place and it deserves respect.

Also, plenty of FPS games have lore and respect it. First Person Shooters aren't devoid of lore.

And besides, so what if the game is FPS, does that alone mean people who want to RP the game should STFU? No, they're paying customers like the rest of us, they get a say also.

[nehebkau]

To the OP:

I have to say that I do, agree with a lot of what you are saying. Too many people get hung up on the BT lore and fail to recognize that some of that lore, or game-play is not helpful to creating a healthy, growing game-playing population.

Having said that, the lore is rich and quite interesting and we should make use of all of that meaty history to build a fun virtual world. None the less, there is an internal war between the LORE! people and the FPS! people and often times the LORE! people will make an argument (like clan mechs are supposed to be stronger) and the FPS! people will make a counter argument (like if we are following lore then clans shouldn't help each other defend or use mercs).

The simple truth is that you will NEVER get the groups to agree and the LORE! people seem to have a greater voice within PGI, leading to lots of the annoying/wtf stuff we have in game now (cludges) because, as mech pilots, we aim -- we don't roll dice. Unless PGI resolves this issue, internally, and the community resolves it externally, the game is going to suffer from many more bad design decisions.

Edited by nehebkau, 02 March 2015 - 12:00 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Necromantion, on 20 February 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

You seriously are totally incapable of comprehending plain English aren't you?

I said that people need to realize that lore WONT ALWAYS translate well into a balanced FPS game.

I did not say lore WONT.

WONT is not the same as WONT ALWAYS.

Go away or learn to read.

Really...

Using bolded whines to Joseph Mallen? Youre new arent you. 673 posts...yeah..


Yeah...

[KraftySOT]

Also its pretty wild to say, "the TT ( you keep saying Lore, but I dont think you know what that word means in this context) wont translate well into an FPS" when, its been translated to varying degrees of "correctness" (by some standards) with varying degrees of success.

The most TT like, was still the highest selling MW game.

The least, the least well selling.

Given that no one has ever actually done a true 1:1 recreation of the TT, its pretty easy to scientifically say, that no one knows what that game would be like, and if it would be fun, or not.

We can envision, but for every envisioning of a game that sucks, you can envision a game thats awesome.

When people say "you cant adapt the lore and have a fun FPS" its even more ridiculous, since the Lore, and the TT are basically two different things.

The Table Top, is an abstraction of the lore.

The FPS games, are an abstraction of the Table Top. Once removed from the lore.

If the FPS game was an abstraction of the Lore, not the Table Top, youd have a completely different rule set. There would be no "Medium Laser" there would be a plethora of lasers of the "Medium" class. Produced by various companies, with various stats.

Think about it like Eve. Youd have multiple types of 200mm Autocannons. They all fit in a High Slot, they all generally have the same stats, but some are slightly better or worse at say, rate of fire.

Some autocannons might have a super high rate of fire, but very small damage. Thats still, an AC5 or whatever. A "lore based" Mechwarrior game has never existed and no one would know what it would be like, though you can be sure, it wouldnt be like Mechwarrior is currently.

[Dawnstealer]

LOUD

NOISES

[KraftySOT]

And I dont think anyone can argue that a direct translation of the TT, has problems. Though most of those are piled on by the devs.

When you choose to ignore certain aspects of the TT, you end up in weird places. You have to double armor, come up with hardpoints, ghost heat, all these little stop gaps because you got something fundamentally wrong. When you look at a Medium Laser that does 5 damage in a 10 second round, and it can do 15 damage in 10 seconds, you made an error in the translation.

Then you have to come up with systems, to fix that problem, because youre not willing to undo all the craziness you did, that got you to the problem in the first place.

If a small laser did 1 damage, and fired 3 times in 10 seconds, and all the other weapons behaved that way, there would be no doubled armor, and no ghost heat.

If yer aim went a little wonky and slowly got worse as your mech got hotter. Youd never have needed to nerf Jump Jets, and TTK would be higher. Not to mention jumping, should make it ~24% more difficult to aim. Simple crosshair tricks that are standard in most FPS games would fix that.

Instead you made the Highlander, Executioner, etc...useless.

Edited by KraftySOT, 02 March 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[Necromantion]

KraftySOT, on 02 March 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Really...

Using bolded whines to Joseph Mallen? Youre new arent you. 673 posts...yeah..


Yeah...

Boldened whines? More like highlighting his inability to derive the basic message from a post. I dont always post on the forums but have been playing this game since shortly after beta and have been playing mechwarrior games since MW:2 so please.