33 replies to this topic

[Big Tin Man]

It is not that the wolverine 6k is now bad, it's actually still quite good with the LL quirks. It is that the LPL had a mech that if worked on, and it was great. Now it's garbage again, and that makes us sad. Here's the big picture numbers of the big energy weapon quirks at the moment:

Mechs w/large laser quriks--5 hero/champion mechs, 12 standard variants--Total 17 mechs (15 if you subtract champion/standard overlap)
Mechs w/ER large laser quirks--1 champion mech, 3 standard variants--Total 4 mechs (3 if you subtract champion/standard overlap)
Mechs w/PPC quirks--5 heros, 20 standard variants--Total 25 mechs (no overlap)
Mechs w/ERPPC quirks--0 champion/hero, 6 standard variants--Total 6 mechs

Mechs w/LPL quirks--3 hero/champion variants, 2 standard variants--Total 5 mechs (4 if you subtract champion/standard overlap)

That's right, only two C-Bill mechs that are quirked for LPL. Factor in that the LPL is the same weight as a PPC, only a 0.08 second difference in start to start duration, worse range by 175m, all for a tradeoff of less heat and hitscan vs. more heat PPFLD, and the PPC wins out.

We want wubs. We want unique and different weapons. That was taken away with the 6K. The two that are left for C-Bills are the Thunderbolt 9SE (generally in a good place) and the Stalker 5S (if you want a less manuverable 3F).

I hope future quirk passes work to increase the number of mechs with some LPL love. I want to use LPL's, I enjoy LPL's. Stop making them bad.

[Shadow Magnet]

I guess we have to lobby PGI to get some new mechs or variants of existing mechs in that use LPL/MPL/SPL in the stock build.

How about a Pulse Laser Mech Pack?

Edited by Shadow Magnet, 20 February 2015 - 10:16 AM.

[Brody319]

Still got the Crab and the Black Knight for energy mechs coming I'm sure at least one will get some LPLs.

[Big Tin Man]

@ shadow

Currently there is only 1 standard mech with SPL specific quirks, and 5 champion/hero and 6 standard for medium pulse quirks.

I feel that the small and medium are in a good place at the moment, they are a good compliment to fast moving brawlers. The large is just completely outclassed by PPC's ton for ton.

[MechWarrior5152251]

7K was better, jumping even with hoverjets is a big advantage for a medium and the AC5 is as good as a LPL.

[Fate 6]

Big Tin Man, on 20 February 2015 - 10:23 AM, said:

The large is just completely outclassed by PPC's ton for ton.

Actually the real issue is the LPL vs the LL. Given generic energy quirks, the LL is better to take than the LPL because the % buffs will more greatly benefit the LL and the 2 damage difference is not enough to make up for the range and tonnage difference.

MechWarrior5152251, on 20 February 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

7K was better, jumping even with hoverjets is a big advantage for a medium and the AC5 is as good as a LPL.

6R is the AC5 mech.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I wish LL quirks were generic.

So a LL quirk of 15% Range, would apply to ERLL, LL, and LPL equally.

[Macksheen]

My best LPL mechs are my STK-3H and AWS-8T; they rock. Part of the issue is that the LPL is plenty strong already, so any mech with decent generic buffs does well with it. It shares this with the ERLL, in that when you want/need the ERLL good generic buffs are often more than enough as the weapon works in and of itself.

Compare to PPCs which generally under-perform right now, and the only mechs that use them boast prodigious quirks for the specific weapon.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

I switched my Wuberine to all MPLs. Seems to be doing just fine.

[Macksheen]

Jody Von Jedi, on 20 February 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

I wish LL quirks were generic.

So a LL quirk of 15% Range, would apply to ERLL, LL, and LPL equally.

Yes please.

If they are the same for ghost heat, quirk them the same too.

[Big Tin Man]

Fate 6, on 20 February 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

Actually the real issue is the LPL vs the LL. Given generic energy quirks, the LL is better to take than the LPL because the % buffs will more greatly benefit the LL and the 2 damage difference is not enough to make up for the range and tonnage difference.

Disagree. The LPL vs. LL argument comes down to duration, 2.81 dps vs. 2.1. 0.67s vs. 1.00 sec matters when you're working with hitscan.

Quote

6R is the AC5 mech.

And I love my mini-dragon.

@Mack--PPC's are tough to use because the projectile is so slow and doesn't match other weapons well anymore. Take note of how many mechs got PPC velocity buffs on this last round. When they nerfed ppc speed from 1500m/s to a ford pinto, they made them much harder to use, which only encourages boating.

[Kensaisama]

Being a hardcore Wolverine pilot I don't understand why the quirk change to the 6K. I thought it was fine as it was.

[Widowmaker1981]

IS LPLs are the best energy weapon in the game at the moment (range is NOT the big thing people make it out to be, after 400 meters or so its very situational), and a lot of the mechs that got LPL quirks had the swapped for slightly smaller ones that apply to all energy weapons. The Wubverine is probably still better with LPLs over LLs (unless it got LL duration?) and the range before was overkill.

I ran a 5xLPL Banshee 3M when it had 15% to LPL range and heat and it was freaking OP. Im still using the same build with 10% to generic energy and heat, and its a bit more reasonable now, but still strong as hell.

Main point is people look at range/dmg/heat and ignore duration, when duration is probably the most important stat (once range is past 300m or so)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 20 February 2015 - 10:58 AM.

[Macksheen]

Big Tin Man, on 20 February 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

@Mack--PPC's are tough to use because the projectile is so slow and doesn't match other weapons well anymore. Take note of how many mechs got PPC velocity buffs on this last round. When they nerfed ppc speed from 1500m/s to a ford pinto, they made them much harder to use, which only encourages boating.

Right, that's kinda my point. PPCs are less used now - and largely only on mechs with good PPC buffs. That means that, in general, they aren't good weapons.

Everyone I know when they are looking at a build and deciding to go off-quirk for their energy starts looking at LPLs - they remain that good.

[Ultimax]

Jody Von Jedi, on 20 February 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

I wish LL quirks were generic.

So a LL quirk of 15% Range, would apply to ERLL, LL, and LPL equally.

Percentage quirks benefit the largest base stats the most.

This is why when they changed the BNC-3M quirks to mostly generic and also reduced the amount to compensate, its became better to take LLAS or ERLLAS over LPLs.


The system is going backwards and taking away uniqueness from mechs, if everyone just gets generic quirks we go back to playing the most efficient base weapons on the most optimal chassis.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 20 February 2015 - 11:09 AM.

[Mott]

Macksheen, on 20 February 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Everyone I know when they are looking at a build and deciding to go off-quirk for their energy starts looking at LPLs - they remain that good.

Exactly. The pre-quirked Arrow is the perfect example. It's a small mech that can only pack in so many DHS, but 2xLPLs on it was amazing. Throw on 2xAC5s or 2xPPCs and it became a very subpar mech.

Then it got the AC20 quirks, and remained a much a better mech with the LPLs.

Now that it's got the LPL quirks, you'd be mad to run anything else, really.

[Amsro]

I was running this mech with 4 Large Lasers before the quirks and after the quirks and now its been requirked to my exact loadout.

With the removal of 3x Large Laser ghost heat the mech is now very deadly.

I get your point, and agree more should be LPL oriented, but this mech cannot hope to use 4 LPL.

[Uthael]

Widowmaker1981, on 20 February 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

(...) range is NOT the big thing people make it out to be, after 400 meters or so its very situational
(...)Main point is people look at range/dmg/heat and ignore duration, when duration is probably the most important stat (once range is past 300m or so)

I pilot mainly RVN-2X and I like staying at 500m+ range, even if it means I'm dealing less than optimal damage. Range and damage-per-heat are my primary concerns with damage-per-ton being secondary (for me at least). Having it quirked for LPLs was great; I had a decent alpha, decent range, great heat efficiency and all my weapons were on the same arm.

Now that I have LLs for quirks, I've switched to using them (2xLPL+1HS => 3xLL). I have greater range, much greater alpha (3 are now allowed to fire at the same time), and just a bit larger burn duration. Overall, I have greater damage and scores at the end with the new 27 alpha on a light.

However, there are 3 major downsides:
1) Damage-per-heat is lower. I don't like dealing a huge alpha and repositioning while I wait for the heat. I like the peek-and-poke game. It has killed me plenty of times , but it was something I enjoyed. Like pop-tarting, only I had to peek from the side, shoot and go back.
2) The 3rd laser is equipped on the left side and now I have to reveal my whole mech instead of half of it (cockpit and right arm). Not at all a drawback to WVR, but a major drawback to a RVN.
3) It doesn't WUB anymore!!! I've bought a duplicate mech to play while this one is dead, got all the modules and even the wubbing warhorn! (all of which I've never bought before) And now the lasers don't wub... T_T

Edit: The WUB is a very important stat. The psychological effect it makes. On the user at least if the enemy doesn't care xD

Edited by Uthael, 20 February 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[CutterWolf]

Big Tin Man, on 20 February 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

It is not that the wolverine 6k is now bad, it's actually still quite good with the LL quirks. It is that the LPL had a mech that if worked on, and it was great. Now it's garbage again, and that makes us sad. Here's the big picture numbers of the big energy weapon quirks at the moment:

Mechs w/large laser quriks--5 hero/champion mechs, 12 standard variants--Total 17 mechs (15 if you subtract champion/standard overlap)
Mechs w/ER large laser quirks--1 champion mech, 3 standard variants--Total 4 mechs (3 if you subtract champion/standard overlap)
Mechs w/PPC quirks--5 heros, 20 standard variants--Total 25 mechs (no overlap)
Mechs w/ERPPC quirks--0 champion/hero, 6 standard variants--Total 6 mechs

Mechs w/LPL quirks--3 hero/champion variants, 2 standard variants--Total 5 mechs (4 if you subtract champion/standard overlap)

That's right, only two C-Bill mechs that are quirked for LPL. Factor in that the LPL is the same weight as a PPC, only a 0.08 second difference in start to start duration, worse range by 175m, all for a tradeoff of less heat and hitscan vs. more heat PPFLD, and the PPC wins out.

We want wubs. We want unique and different weapons. That was taken away with the 6K. The two that are left for C-Bills are the Thunderbolt 9SE (generally in a good place) and the Stalker 5S (if you want a less manuverable 3F).

I hope future quirk passes work to increase the number of mechs with some LPL love. I want to use LPL's, I enjoy LPL's. Stop making them bad.

Let's see number of Clan mechs with any kind of weapon quirk of any kind at all "0" nada, none, empty set.
The WVR was and has been a good mech before and after quirks, you should try using Clan pulse laser if you want something to complain about. Our faster pulse laser (Clan Small Pulse) is .11 slower than the IS Large Pulse and they put out a ton of heat.

Edited by CutterWolf, 20 February 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Ultimatum X, on 20 February 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

Percentage quirks benefit the largest base stats the most.

This is why when they changed the BNC-3M quirks to mostly generic and also reduced the amount to compensate, its became better to take LLAS or ERLLAS over LPLs.


The system is going backwards and taking away uniqueness from mechs, if everyone just gets generic quirks we go back to playing the most efficient base weapons on the most optimal chassis.

Sure, 15% of 450 is larger than 15% of 365, but the player that prefers the pulse lasers is going to choose the pulse laser over either the ERLL or the LL just because he likes it, or is just more comfortable with it. Just because some will min/max doesn't mean everyone will. Some people are actually better with Pulse lasers because they require less face time. The burn time is shorter and delivers more damage.

The brawlers prefer pulse lasers and the snipers prefer ERLL or LL. If you give general quirks, then everyone gets something. The player doesn't have to decide between a weapon he isn't comfortable with, just to get the quirk bonus, or the weapon he prefers, is better with.