131 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

FS9-S
5x MPL = 20 heat - 30% quirk = 14 heat on alpha for 30 damage

ACH w/ 5x SPLs & 2x DHS
= 15 heat on alpha for 30 damage


Shorter range, but the heat is a wash (ACH can fit 12 DHS with 5x SPLs + ECM) unless you want a larger alpha than the FS9-S.

Shorter range and a touch slower, but it gets ECM & more JJs.


They are going to be very, very close.



Alternatively you can do 6x CERSLAS for 30 damage at 200m, for only 3 tons and add like 5 extra DHS...

[Gas Guzzler]

Jakob Knight, on 21 February 2015 - 05:16 AM, said:

The Arctic Cheetah is only comparable to the FS9 in regards to firepower, that I will grant you. However, as I stated, when determining if parity exists across techbases, you have to look at more than that.

First is tonnage. The Firestarter gains 5 tons over the AC. This is an imbalance that will make direct comparisons more difficult because of the difference in Engines for the same speed abilities, which in turn affects available tonnage and may affect number of heat sinks able to be used in the engine. When making comparisons, you always try to compare between units as close as possible to established and shared quantities. Tonnage and Engine Rating are among the only things identical between Clan and Inner Sphere technology, so that is a baseline to establish what is comparable to what.


Second is what abilities the mech has the potential to fill on the battlefield. The Firestarter has a jump capability of 6, which matches the AC. The Firestarter has multiple energy and ballistic hardpoints, which match the AC. These put both into the catagories of combat and jump jet mech. However, the AC also mounts ECM, putting it into the catagory of Light EW mech and Scout, and the power of this one system is such that it single-handedly determines the value of a Light mech in many cases. The Firestarter does not have the ability to fill this role, and it is one of the primary roles of a Light mech.

Third is if another mech fills these criteria better. And we find that, yes, a SDR-5D Spider matches the AC in tonnage, jump capabilities, and role as ECM light mech. By comparison, the Firestarter only matches the AC in weapon hardpoints and jump capabilities. This means the SDR-5D is a closer match for comparison to the AC than the Firestarter, and in being able to be used in determining how the AC should be implemented such that it does not have an inherent advantage over the same mech in the Inner Sphere side of the battle.



It is interesting that people like this get into the forums. I am, if you had actually bothered to check instead of deciding that inventing what I said would be better, a long-time advocate for keeping things as hard as possible in CW, and that it is up to the player to adapt to the situation they find themselves in there. Since you did not, I am not surprised that you make such inaccurate and foolish statements, which only illuminate that it is yourself who should be ignored, since you have absolutely no idea what you speak of.

To reiterate what should be obvious....I am stating, in multiple threads as you put it, that in comparison to the Inner Sphere mech most directly comparable to it, the Arctic Cheetah will need serious nerfs to bring it on equal footing with the Inner Sphere mech, something that is the overriding directive in putting Clantech in MWO at all (check what the Devs have stated from day one of the Clan introduction about their goals in translating Clantech into MWO). Failure to do so will only result in an obvious imbalance between the two sides.



When you are comparing two mechs, you do so from an equal start point. Can you compare the amount of tonnage a Firestarter with a maximum engine has to what one with only a maximum speed of 96kph can when determining which one has too much firepower? Would you do so when comparing how much armor may be carried by the two? I hope not, because the two aren't being compared on equal footing but on one where one mech was avoidably changed before comparisons could be drawn to be more different, not more similar.

In the case of the Firestarter and the Kitfox, you start with the standard speed because that sets both mechs on a similar baseline for engine requirement and jump capabilities to perform equally in handling. They are not the same on tonnage, tech base, or hardpoint restrictions and cannot be made so, so this is one of the few ways you can set each to compare directly. Can a Firestarter change out it's engine to move faster? Yes, but now you have to calculate for the tonnage lost to a larger engine, which translates to abilities lost that have to also be calculated in when compensating for the variance in speed comparisons. All that compensation is extra work that actually belongs in the comparison of mech abilities after the baseline comparison is made, not during. Trying to compare a Thunderbolt to a Catapult while discounting any difference in engines that might be mounted in each is simply asking to have your conclusions questioned, for example.

So, yes. When I am going to compare a Clan mech which has a set speed due to it's fixed engine and an Inner Sphere that does not, I have to set the Inner Sphere mech to the same speed to make the same comparisons between them. If I don't, then I am simply introducing a variable that, by definition, doesn't have to be there to determine how the two stack up against each other.

To make it simpler, if I go to a store to find a 50-watt lightbulb, I don't go to a 25-watt lightbulb when I tell the store manager 'You know, this other lightbulb over at that other store I visited does the same job better.' You try to match as closely as possible for known quantities that are shared between two things before you compare them for differences and if those differences are slanted in one thing's favor.



I think that, if equality between Inner Sphere and Clan technology is the goal, then that would be true...-if- the Adder was what was determined to be the most accurate baseline for determining what a Firestarter and Jenner should be able to do. Equality is a two-way street.

The question is...is Clantech the baseline, or Inner Sphere? Which one do you use to determine which direction you take changes?

And, do we make those changes based on personal preferences, or on hard data established to as close a comparison as possible?

In any event, I have tried to explain my reasons for comparisons, provide solutions to questions raised, and the guidelines I use for setting up comparisons. The quality of the responses I have received has only reinforced that I am wasting my time trying to reason with people who have no such capabilities, and so I will leave this discussion to wallow in it's own ignorance.

Enjoy your 'discussion'.

I stopped reading your posts when you said the Kit Fox compares to the Firestarter. Just FYI, I am sure I am not the only one.

[Greenjulius]

Ultimatum X, on 13 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

FS9-S
5x MPL = 20 heat - 30% quirk = 14 heat on alpha for 30 damage

ACH w/ 5x SPLs & 2x DHS
= 15 heat on alpha for 30 damage


Shorter range, but the heat is a wash (ACH can fit 12 DHS with 5x SPLs + ECM) unless you want a larger alpha than the FS9-S.

Shorter range and a touch slower, but it gets ECM & more JJs.


They are going to be very, very close.



Alternatively you can do 6x CERSLAS for 30 damage at 200m, for only 3 tons and add like 5 extra DHS...

I am going to try running it as a super midrange 3L Raven, with 4xERML, ECM and 3xDHS, maybe throwing in a TC1 to test. 28 Damage at 445m, small target, jumpy, ECM.

Probably will become a more serious version of all the ECM spiders that have shown up lately.

[1453 R]

The problem, Jakob, is that you’re not arguing for ‘balance’, you’re arguing for the deliberate removal of the Arctic Cheetah from the game on the strength of “this ‘Mech is most like the Spider. The Spider is f***ing useless. Ergo, either the Cheetah must also be f***ing useless, or we need to yell at Piranha that the Clans are being a bunch of OP jerkwhales again.”

Again, as has been pointed out – by that logic the FS9 and JR7 need to be hauled down to the level of the Badder. Or, and here’s the real killer – maybe you should be asking why the FS9-S got the crazyridic MPL perks and not the SDR, considering that any given Spider has about half the hardpoints it needs to have. Spiders are one of the IS ‘Mechs most deserving of obnoxiously overlarge weapons quirks since they can’t actually carry weapons.

EDIT:: Also, comparing stock Firestarters to anything is an utterly and absolutely pointless endeavor since not only does no one sane run them stock, but such a comparison hides the fact that an FS9 running 150 klicks with eight small pulse lasers is a game-changing monster. You're actively damaging your credibility when you say that comparing stock configurations is the way to determine balance, dood.

Either way, butchering the Arctic Cheetah means the Clans continue to have no good answer to FS9s and JR7s, which is something that would be utterly criminal considering that the Cheetah is supposed to be the answer to FS9s and JR7s. Yes, it’s going to be incredibly potent. Good. I’ve been wanting an incredibly potent Clan light. Time to have some fun.

Edited by 1453 R, 13 March 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[L3mming2]

Mcgral18, on 20 February 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

It will compare to the FS9, but hotter and shorter ranged.


Also a cXL, which will be big. Legs, of course, will be easy as always.

dont know where you get hotter AND shorter ranged
it will have more range then the spl FS9 and be cooler than every other FS9 and have ecm and a clan xl and 6 JJ and can cary a extra dhs + all of the above....

[Johnny Z]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

Both the Firestarter and Jenner are 5 tons heavier, so the comparisons won't be as close. At the same time, they can't operate ECM, so that's another difference that will make the comparison less accurate.

The Spider is the light, jump-capable, 30-ton ECM Inner Sphere mech, so that's what you need to use to compare. Using mechs designed for other missions and with different tonnages won't do the job as well.

Remember, the point isn't to 'take our best and compare it to this mech', but 'take the closest IS mech to this one and put them side-by-side to see if they match up'.



If the Arctic Cheetah places into the top 3 light mechs in the game when the exact same mech on the Inner Sphere side does not, then that is clear proof the Arctic Cheetah needs to be seriously nerfed and/or penalized to bring it down to where it should be.

The alternative is that the Devs are admit that they have failed to produce the balance they claimed was their overriding goal in translating the Clans into MWO, and that people should just quit buying Inner Sphere mechs that are now not supposed to be effective units in the game.

Well said. It may be wise to begin a pre-emptive complaint topic to nerf this Arctic Cheeta.

[Nori Silverrage]

Ultimatum X, on 13 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

FS9-S
5x MPL = 20 heat - 30% quirk = 14 heat on alpha for 30 damage

ACH w/ 5x SPLs & 2x DHS
= 15 heat on alpha for 30 damage


Shorter range, but the heat is a wash (ACH can fit 12 DHS with 5x SPLs + ECM) unless you want a larger alpha than the FS9-S.

Shorter range and a touch slower, but it gets ECM & more JJs.


They are going to be very, very close.



Alternatively you can do 6x CERSLAS for 30 damage at 200m, for only 3 tons and add like 5 extra DHS...

It will be close, but there is give and take. Technically the Firestarter is more survivable because while it doesn't have CXL it is 5t heavier and thus has 6 more HPs in the legs. And I wouldn't underestimate the 8KPH speed difference.

I predict the AC will be more of a highly mobile sniper. Clan MLAS are just so hot I can't see doing the same thing I do with the FS in the AC. The CSPL will be a good striker/hit and run mech though.
Should be interesting though.

[WarHippy]

For further proof that Jakob should be ignored look no further than a fantastic endorsement from Johnny Z on the topic of Clan balance.

[1453 R]

For the love of...

Here's an idea - maybe the Arctic Cheetah is the Arctic Cheetah, and not a Clan attempt to clone the Spider. It has elements of the SDR (30 tons, ECM capability, jump jets), the JR7 (mix of energy and ballistic hardpoints, jump jets, and yes I'm ignoring that awful LBX/2 configuration because I should and so should you), and the FS9 (humanoid build, jump jets), but it is not any of those 'Mechs and should be evaluated on its own merits at the job it is intended to do within the overall gameplay spectrum of MWO.

In that mode, it's very clear that the Cheetah is a direct competitor to the FS9 and the JR7 as a high-speed direct combat light in terms of functionality within MWO. It is a fast, aggressive 'Mech meant to bring great murder to the enemy's backsides, just the same as Jenners and Firestarters do. It gets compared to Jenners and Firestarters because it does the same job that Jenners and Firestarters do in MWO. It doesn't matter one single fat flip what these 'Mechs do in TT canon, what their stock loadouts are, or what other 'Mechs they may or may not superficially resemble.

Anyone arguing that the Cheetah is more powerful than the Spider and thus needs to be nerfed - JAKOB, JOHNNY - needs to open their eyes for a little bit, eh? Maybe you should be giving thanks that it's not five tons heavier and thus possessed of 35-tonner armor and structure instead of 30-tonner, as well as being limited to nine TruDubs while making use of the extremely heat-intensive Clan tech base.

Is it going to be scary? Yeeuuuuuup. Is it going to match up against FS9s and JR7s? Yeeuuuuuup. Is it going to very possibly be the new top-dog light? Yes, yes it is. Here's the thing - it's going to have its problems like every other light, and because it's going to be right on up there, it's never going to see, say...a 30% C-MPL heat reduction.

So maybe suck it up and wait until it releases before you cry wolf, eh?

[Ultimax]

Greenjulius, on 13 March 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

I am going to try running it as a super midrange 3L Raven, with 4xERML, ECM and 3xDHS, maybe throwing in a TC1 to test. 28 Damage at 445m, small target, jumpy, ECM.

Probably will become a more serious version of all the ECM spiders that have shown up lately.

That will fall between

> Raven 3L (with less range, but more firepower, likely better hitboxes and no ST easy kills*)

and

> FS9-H (with more range, close on heat, ECM)




*I know most people go for legs on all lights, and Ravens especially, but I find if I have a clean shot, I can usually drill right through a ST for a very fast kill.

[1453 R]

Ultimatum X, on 13 March 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

That will fall between

> Raven 3L (with less range, but more firepower, likely better hitboxes and no ST easy kills*)

and

> FS9-H (with more range, close on heat, ECM)




*I know most people go for legs on all lights, and Ravens especially, but I find if I have a clean shot, I can usually drill right through a ST for a very fast kill.

I shoot lights where and when I can, and hit them where I can manage it. I'll go for a leg if I can, but I find that the more often you hit something, the quicker it goes down, and a snapshot that deals some damage to an arm or an ST on a light is still more damage than trying for a bad leg shot and missing altogether, or not bothering to shoot the thing at all because it's ducking and weaving and I'm too busy to chase squirrels.

They only have so much armor. Every point you can take off a light is a point less of random snapfire they can stomach.

[Mcgral18]

L3mming2, on 13 March 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

dont know where you get hotter AND shorter ranged
it will have more range then the spl FS9 and be cooler than every other FS9 and have ecm and a clan xl and 6 JJ and can cary a extra dhs + all of the above....

The FS9-S is cooler and longer ranged.

Also TrueDubs, it lacks one in comparison, as well as mounting fewer heatsinks.


6 cSPLs, ECM, TC1 will be my standard build. That's 18 heat for 36 damage. Still nice, but worse than 32 damage for 14.4 heat (at less range) or 30 damage for 14 heat (at longer range). Both also deal damage in shorter amounts of time.


The JJ heat will also be significant, since you will have 6. It generates heat on the Mist Lynx, rather than just slow dissipation on the FS9s. The two TrueDubs won't mean much change for the Cheetah.


FS9-A
FS9-S

Runs cooler than the 324M ML FS9.
FS9-H


If you want to run a sub-optimal 6 laser 2 DHS build, I can Math for you.

The 6 ERSL 15 DHS build would run cooler:
Heat cap: 67.68
Heat diss: 3.036 H/s

12 DHS FS9
Heat cap: 63.36
Heat diss: 2.622

The identical 12 DHS ACH
Heat cap: 62.64
Heat diss: 2.553

Of course a marginal difference, but with hotter loadouts, it will run marginally hotter, without taking the JJ heat into account.

The more standard 11 DHS ACH
Heat cap: 60.96
Heat diss: 2.392



It will still run reasonably heat efficient (unless you do the insane 6 ERMLs) but will be marginally hotter than the FS9s for similar range brackets. 185M SPLs or 225M ERSLs. It beats the FS9-H for heat, but doesn't have an effective 324M weapon(MPLs too heavy for it).


The FS9-S runs pretty darn cool at 14 heat, so 18 should still be reasonable, unless the JJ heat is ridiculous.

[1453 R]

I'm awfully tempted to try 2xC-ERML, 4xC-ERSL myself. Smalls in the arms for knife-fighting, mediums in the skyhook hardpoints for poking. Obviously ECM, and either three extra DHS or two DHS and a TC1. I think that could strike a nice balance between proper knife-range heat efficiency and the distance combat the ERMLs allow for, as well as the option of a 34-point alpha into an unattentive backside.

I know the c-SPL is the go-to knife-range gun and I know why, but I just can't get over how awesome a half-ton laser kicking out five damage is. On something weight-conscious like the Cheetah, saving two tons on my knife-fighting guns to throw back into heat sinks is a Big Damn Deal.

Or alternately pitch the ERML, the TC, and the heat sinks and run 4x c-ERSL and 2x C-SRM-6 w/2t ammo. Not as accurate, but a much bigger hit and a lot better for tight city-fighting where you don't often have time for full laser burns anyways.

Ahh...I'm going to have so much fun with these suckers...

[Lsq78]

How viable do you guys think a 2erll + ecm with armor shaved off the arms be in terms of heat? Those ST hardpoints really have me thinking about a nasty light sniper.

[topgun505]

The big question will be the hitboxes. As long as they aren't Jenner-sized this will probably end up being a game changing light.

[Nik Reaper]

While most of that theoricrating is probly true, what about those nice overhead hardpoints and almost cockpit high arms?

Also how big would we expect it to be, would they make it firestarter size to counter some of it's power or would it be more of an commando wide spider?

[L3mming2]

Ultimatum X, on 13 March 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

FS9-S
5x MPL = 20 heat - 30% quirk = 14 heat on alpha for 30 damage

ACH w/ 5x SPLs & 2x DHS
= 15 heat on alpha for 30 damage


Shorter range, but the heat is a wash (ACH can fit 12 DHS with 5x SPLs + ECM) unless you want a larger alpha than the FS9-S.

Shorter range and a touch slower, but it gets ECM & more JJs.


They are going to be very, very close.



Alternatively you can do 6x CERSLAS for 30 damage at 200m, for only 3 tons and add like 5 extra DHS...

funny thing comparing alpha's ....

the big thing here is the max dps of the 2 builds ... before modules the max dps of the FS9-S is 8.33 the AC can do 12 ... not even a FS9-A can beat that, and it runs cooler then both... (this is taking the quirks in to account)

to compare;
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c6c6b3899685acf
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c1c9c571ab375dc

so to compare (AC vs FS9-A);
alpha; AC (36 vs 32)
cooling efficiency; AC (44% vs 42%)
DPS; AC (12 vs 11,64)
speed; FS9-A (142.6 vs 150.2)
JJ; AC (6 vs 6) (same but lighter chassi)
ECM; AC
range; AC (165 vs 126)
tonage; AC (30 vs 35)
CXL; AC


8 - 1 for the AC...

so unless they make it rediculously large ore have a very small torso twist (like 60° XD)
it will be way better then the FS9's who a load of ppl in this forum have been calling OP / overquirked...

Edited by L3mming2, 13 March 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Pjwned]

Jakob Knight, on 20 February 2015 - 10:32 PM, said:

The Kitfox-S, with whatever arms suit the weapons to be mounted. This isn't as close a comparison as the AC <-> Spider because the Kitfox is 5 tons lighter. However, it does have the same jump capability, speed, and general role as the Firestarter. Further, it is far more adaptable, being able to be reconfigured to a superior escort mech (3xAMS) and ECM mech, or a light mech killer with multiple Streak missile systems, all by simply purchasing parts of other variants, something the Firestarter cannot do.

Indeed, the Firestarter-E is very comparable to the Kitfox in hardpoints as well.

The Kit Fox has only 2/3 the speed of a Firestarter, that's not really comparable.

[Soy]

Thanks for the laugh Jakob.

[CantHandletheTruth]

L3mming2, on 13 March 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

dont know where you get hotter AND shorter ranged
it will have more range then the spl FS9 and be cooler than every other FS9 and have ecm and a clan xl and 6 JJ and can cary a extra dhs + all of the above....

Wrong, CSPLs are subject to ghost heat, unlike IS versions. Not to mention, it likely won't be able to cool itself and jump, try out a Myst Lynx, the damn things nearly overheat with just the JJs if you are hopping around a lot...and you better be.

Edited by CantHandletheTruth, 13 March 2015 - 02:19 PM.