84 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

I think it's hard to overstate that Alpine Peaks is not a bad map, it's just flawed and could use a few fixes to make Assault and Skirmish matches on it not so boring and samey.

Conquest matches are actually not too bad on Alpine really, though I think some repositioning of objectives and spawn points would not be totally unwarranted, especially when you have a match where the heavy lance goes for Gamma because they spawned close to it and then by the time they arrive to the real action (which is so far away) they find rest of their team is dead, which I've seen happen a number of times; this would probably be fixed by having a standard Conquest setup where each team starts with 1 base and everybody spawns close to it.

Edited by Pjwned, 21 February 2015 - 01:28 PM.

[Davegt27]

Wow a subject that's not about nerf this or that

Hats off to the OP

I like alpine but I only been around since last June the only map I don't like is the Bog (how many tank battles are fought in a swamp)

Sometimes I wonder about the tendency for people to rush to the center of a map

[Yokaiko]

Davegt27, on 21 February 2015 - 12:47 PM, said:

Wow a subject that's not about nerf this or that

Hats off to the OP

I like alpine but I only been around since last June the only map I don't like is the Bog (how many tank battles are fought in a swamp)

Sometimes I wonder about the tendency for people to rush to the center of a map

Tormaline is my favorite, you can brawl you can snipe, there are numerous attack areas and EVERYTHING doesn't happen over a central obstical.

River Sh!tty they can delete, I hate that map with a burning passion way to many games turn into citadel campouts that are neither interesting or fun.

[jper4]

yeah death mountain on alpine is a pain. control that and you control 80% of the opposing paths (only reasonable counter is going behind the radio tower and use the hills to shield you from death mountain fire) to get to you while you snipe/lrm with impunity. starting at the other spawn and pretty much you have to hope the other team makes a mistake to have a chance. things get worse on assault because now you have the turrets in range to support the death mountain forces while the other base can be picked apart much more easily.

i also liked the original conquest spawn points better- who goes anywhere near old theta and old kappa anymore? makes lights more useful since they are usually the only ones who can hope to stop a points win since all the cap points aren't 500m away from each other (except gamma which gets taken once and ignored the rest of the match 90% of the time).

[Quaamik]

Actually, I like Alpine. Teams I've been one have often won by not taking the hill ... at least not until we kill most of the opposing team.

That said, there are a lot of things that could b don to add variation to it (and other maps). Off the top of my head:

- A "poor weather" variant. Cloud cover well below the peak of the hill. Ideally down to the peaks of the lowest hills. Snow squalls 400 - 1000 m wide and dense enough to block out thermal image moving through at random.

- A "warm" variant. Cover the hills with a tall forest, especially the big approach. Vary the forest density so some of it is open forest and fightable and other spots are too dense to pass a mech (blocking some approach lines).

- A night version. Low light level, possibly snow squalls for background. The flavor of that map would change completely without the ability to reliably spot the enemy 2 klicks away ....


Terra therma could be improved in similar fashion.

- a "daylight" map of it.

- moderate temp version, with forested valleys and water replacing the lava flows. Better yet if the water was deep enough to just about cover a Jenner .....

- A version with more localized heat. Say increase the cauldron temp enough so that staying in it up top makes you take damage, and falling in gives you very limited time to get out. It would force the fight outside and around the cauldron.

Things like that would make new maps for the rotation at very little cost (effort) compared to coming up with a whole new one.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 21 February 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

They have changed the spawns, its still good side. bad side.

That friggin mountain needs to go. Period.

only because players tend to be impatient lemmings who think the mountain actually matters.

the entire lower portion of the map offers far better strategic value than that stupid mountain. And most of it is out of range of those on the mountain. But as long as people are incapable of anything deeper than WoW style ZERGRUSH thinking? The mountain apparently matters.

[Quaamik]

They could also greatly change the flavor by putting a couple more (out of the way) locations for the bases on assault.

Just think if one base was in the hills way behind the mountain and the other in the valley behind the radio tower?

[ThisMachineKillsFascists]

Alpine needs a redesign. Either some cover infront of the major death hill ramp or another third way up to the hill. Preferable boths. Getting caught and lrmed in the open is my alpine night mare and not so much ac lazor ppc snipings

[jper4]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

only because players tend to be impatient lemmings who think the mountain actually matters.

the entire lower portion of the map offers far better strategic value than that stupid mountain. And most of it is out of range of those on the mountain. But as long as people are incapable of anything deeper than WoW style ZERGRUSH thinking? The mountain apparently matters.

yeah pretty much you have to wargames death mountain- "the only way to win is not to play." to neutralize it. the problem is (in PUGlandia anyway) is that someone will always go there no matter how many other people try to get everyone to hang back and wait for them to come to us. once they inevitably die the team is now down one and the other side can just sit back and wait for the timeout win which means now you have to attack. and even if you can get people to wait after five minutes someone gets impatient and goes off to get killed and we're back having to force an attack again.

what i find amusing is on the rare occasions you can get that scenario to work is that everyone agrees what a great match it was to fight somewhere other than the mountain- then the next match starts and back to the mountain everyone goes.

[Pjwned]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 February 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

only because players tend to be impatient lemmings who think the mountain actually matters.

the entire lower portion of the map offers far better strategic value than that stupid mountain. And most of it is out of range of those on the mountain. But as long as people are incapable of anything deeper than WoW style ZERGRUSH thinking? The mountain apparently matters.

Tanar, on 21 February 2015 - 01:25 PM, said:

yeah pretty much you have to wargames death mountain- "the only way to win is not to play." to neutralize it. the problem is (in PUGlandia anyway) is that someone will always go there no matter how many other people try to get everyone to hang back and wait for them to come to us. once they inevitably die the team is now down one and the other side can just sit back and wait for the timeout win which means now you have to attack. and even if you can get people to wait after five minutes someone gets impatient and goes off to get killed and we're back having to force an attack again.

what i find amusing is on the rare occasions you can get that scenario to work is that everyone agrees what a great match it was to fight somewhere other than the mountain- then the next match starts and back to the mountain everyone goes.

Waiting for the team to come down from the mountain is still awful map design, simply making it so you can't slowly crawl up the back of it with no need for jumpjets would make a huge difference and force most people to go with different approaches.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pjwned, on 21 February 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Waiting for the team to come down from the mountain is still awful map design, simply making it so you can't slowly crawl up the back of it with no need for jumpjets would make a huge difference and force most people to go with different approaches.

The worst part is that scouting isn't required for this part either, you can see each other when this happens. If you had limited visibility range, you'd at least have scouts trying to engage/spot the enemy rather than just standing there on opposite sides of the map waving outside weapon ranges.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah and as others have said I dont think Alpine is a bad map, it just has that one huge giant flaw.

That one flaw shouldnt keep the map designers away from ever doing large maps again. Some of us love em. Tourmaline is pretty big too and doesnt have this Mount Everest sized flaw.

[AEgg]

The problem with alpine isn't really the hill, it's the poke and shoot attitude forced into basically every game of MWO because teams are so large. When there are twelve mechs on either side of an obstacle, no one is willing to actually engage since the first one over the hill will get instakilled. In terms of alpine, the hill is the obstacle.

It's entirely possible to win on alpine by ignoring the hill, but just like ignoring the crater on mordor, it's boring, since you have to wait around until the people up there come down and attack. Usually your team gets bored and attacks one by one and loses.

Cut down the team size, or do 8v8v8, and the map would work much better since it wouldn't devolve into whoever walks into the enemy lines first loses. It would not hurt to remove the hill, but we'd just find something else to hide from the other team with if it was gone. It might be better for a few weeks but eventually everyone would just settle on another hiding place.

[KraftySOT]

Well thats why you have good rolling hills and berms, so that you dont have that poke and shoot mentality with the one single obstactle that your entire team can hide behind.

If you have a plethora of 'corners' and routes to get there, the team is more likely to spread out to these locations in varying ways, especially since the lances drop randomly, and you get a more emergent game flow. I mean ultimately itll boil down to a few areas like Tourmaline does, but its still better than Death Mountain repeatedly. I mean look at Rivercity even, sure its always Nascar, but at least theres plenty of places to poke and shoot from, so the teams are actually actively moving to these spots. Every fight is similar but not cookie cookie, and sometimes you die n the water, sometimes you die on the ramp, sometimes you die in the city, its better than, I always win when I stand on the mountain, and I always die halfway up the mountain. Or...sitzkrieg while people arguing with each other about how bad the map is.

Hellbore Springs has a good example of that, as theres a few ways to cover the corners that the whole attacking team has to come around, and they have a few good support spots to cover the same area. Its in the same area but its at least more dynamic than, everyone rush to Death Mountain.

One of the reasons Tourmaline is more dynamic is that theres pretty much a safe route to everywhere on the map, so no matter where they drop your lances, you can get to where you want to go, which is usually where the assaults landed. Since thats random, the fights are more dynamic.

In Alpine, if the assaults get that horrible spot they get about 8% of the time, far from the mountain. Welp. Because it all boils down to that one piece of annoying terrain.

You shave that mountain down and put more hills in the open areas, and some buildings, and Alpine becomes another Tourmaline. One of the stronger maps.

I like the idea about some visibility killing storm or winds. Thatd help too. Then you can get to where you want to go, as opposed to being compelled to go to the same spot over and over again.

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 February 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[Accused]

We can talk all we want about map design, but until PGI hires a professional maps person, ain't gonna happen.

[KraftySOT]

And one of the main things large open rolling hill maps are missing, or 'must have', is friggin tree lines.

Thats what breaks up line of sight. We need bloody trees. I dont care that theyre made of iron and resist nuclear laser beamzors...thats one of the main things that would improve large maps.

Find any 3d terrain map from a wargame that takes place in northern France. Copy that. Best Mechwarrior map ever.




Trees. Rolling hills. Berms. Walls. Small buildings.

Maybe some grass...its like theres no farming planets anywhere in the Innersphere in MWO.

Where does these people get their friggin food? Is a loaf of bread more expensive than a small laser?

Edited by KraftySOT, 21 February 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[AEgg]

KraftySOT, on 21 February 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

And one of the main things large open rolling hill maps are missing, or 'must have', is friggin tree lines.

Thats what breaks up line of sight. We need bloody trees. I dont care that theyre made of iron and resist nuclear laser beamzors...thats one of the main things that would improve large maps.

Find any 3d terrain map from a wargame that takes place in northern France. Copy that. Best Mechwarrior map ever.




Trees. Rolling hills. Berms. Walls. Small buildings.

Maybe some grass...its like theres no farming planets anywhere in the Innersphere in MWO.

Where does these people get their friggin food? Is a loaf of bread more expensive than a small laser?

Well you know a 5 foot high wall wouldn't do much to a fifty foot walking tank. Same goes for a ~20 foot tree, or even your average sized house. It's actually pretty hard to make a map that scales mechs properly and still plays well. PGI doesn't even try (just look at the size of the trees on viridian bog).

[ThrashInc]

It wouldn't even need to be a large map, but I'd love a downtown type of map where every firing lane (road) would consist of one, maybe 2 mechs capable of using it at a time.

[Kain Demos]

I was disappointed to hear that as well. Alpine's size alone is not the issue--once again like TT it has a defining terrain feature on the map that draws all the PUGs in like moths to a candle resulting in the same fight over and over.

[Dauntless Blint]

You can negate the mountain on alpine by refusing to fight over it,and instead move to west side of the map,but pugs will never do that because it involves thinking outside the square and proceed with the normal brain dead death march.